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2019-01-22, 04:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Atlanta, Georgia
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Re: How to deal with people who demand "teamwork"?
16kgp still covers any eventuality that can be resolved by any spell of 4th level or below any caster in the party prepped that day. Assuming a wizard with Polymorph and a cleric with death ward and FOM that’s pretty much every eventuality that has been mentioned so far.
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2019-01-22, 04:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2017
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- Illinois, USA
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Re: How to deal with people who demand "teamwork"?
Because, if we're talking optimal, the fighter ALREADY EXISTS and doesn't require an action to exist. You're saying it's better to summon a creature and tell the fighter and the fighter's player to go stand in the corner, than to cast flight and let the fighter do what the summon can do. That's just ... I don't even, but I know you'd be a miserable person to play with with that attitude.
If you honestly believe that "casting flight on the fighter" is forcing the wizard to "abandon his fun", what the hell are we even talking to you for? If that's the only way you can have fun, go play some solo campaign somewhere and no you can't have any pizza and beer on your way out my door. Good riddance.
We've already comprehensively burnt that strawman to the ground, please don't play in the ashes.
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2019-01-22, 04:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2014
Re: How to deal with people who demand "teamwork"?
Because racism. Or... classism? People of this forum are behaving as if mundanes are an oppressed minority and deserves special treatment, which is not true. We're all people here and we all have access to the same tools. No one here is privileged. So if a spellcaster wants to contribute in the same way as a fighter, he has an equal right as the fighter to do so.
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2019-01-22, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2015
Re: How to deal with people who demand "teamwork"?
you can still cover a lot of possible stuff with your money and at high level(basically higher than 12) you start having enough gold for managing all the list given here(25000 for soulfire, 800 for flight, 12000 for immunity to lava, 9000 gp for the necklace of adaptation that gives immunity to some stuff against which there is no core spells and which allows to breath under water and we still have money left for other stuff).
At level 15 you can even have freedom of movement.
Well freedom of movement is truly an useful spell it is so sad that the main item for permanent freedom of movement is that expensive: it costs roughly as much as the rest of the stuff.Last edited by noob; 2019-01-22 at 04:50 PM.
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2019-01-22, 04:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2014
Re: How to deal with people who demand "teamwork"?
Let me share my experience with you as a former summon monster wizard. This was literally my first d&d character.
I wanted to summon powerful monsters that tear stuff up.
At first I summoned dogs that lasted 1 round. Horrible. They never hit with their pathetic +2 to attack, and the damage they deal was subpar. Magic missile was better. In the end I had to summon spiders and just throw webs all day to entangle the opponent and then position them to provide flanking to contribute to combat. This was NOT what I wanted.
Then i got SMII. Again, virtually no different than SMI. I found myself summoning multiple spiders again and just playing the entangling flanker because wolves and riding dogs are pathetic damage dealers especially considering I don't have that many spell slots.
From reading online, it seems SMIII is the spell that starts letting me do melee damage with my summoned monsters. It was all I was looking forward to. For the entire 2 months it took my character to hit level 5, all I could think of was getting my hands on that SMIII.
So now imagine me being denied my SMIII after 2 whole months of waiting because everyone wants me to cast haste or fly instead. So when can I use SMIII? After we've outleveled its usefulness? Perhaps I need to wait another 2 whole months and use SMIV instead because 3rd level spell slots are so precious.
If I was in this scenario I would've said **** no. I waited 2 whole ****ing months to finally start tearing stuff up with monsters and if you tell me its more optimal to haste the fighter than summon a fiendish ape and I was being selfish for not casting haste I will leave.
So yes, preparing fly instead of SMIII at level 5 or 6 is ruining my fun.
At level 8 or 9 when I'm using mostly 4th and 5th level slots? Nope, preparing fly is not an issue because only the highest 2 levels of SM are relevant in combat so it's no trouble then. But not at level 5-6, and it's a painful investment at 7.Last edited by RoboEmperor; 2019-01-22 at 04:56 PM.
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2019-01-22, 04:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- Atlanta, Georgia
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Re: How to deal with people who demand "teamwork"?
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2019-01-22, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2016
Re: How to deal with people who demand "teamwork"?
Often, the summon schtick will work great.
Not so against giant beat sticks like dragons. Take a look at a dragon, their cr, what level summon you should have at 1-2 levels less than that cr and compare the flying options to the dragon's stats. In all cases, your summon comes up vastly lacking. In many cases, the only thing that can damage them at all is lantern archons on a nat 20. So your answer is "I wanna do something useless instead of helping our beat stick beat it." Yeah, no. This is role playing. Role play your character growing up and realizing that working together works and soloing things while your party looks on isn't going to work.
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2019-01-22, 05:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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- Virgo Supercluster
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2019-01-22, 05:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
Re: How to deal with people who demand "teamwork"?
Last edited by zlefin; 2019-01-22 at 05:06 PM.
A neat custom class for 3.5 system
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94616
A good set of benchmarks for PF/3.5
https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2...y-the-numbers/
An alternate craft point system I made for 3.5
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...t-Point-system
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2019-01-22, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2015
Re: How to deal with people who demand "teamwork"?
Yes if the party fighter buys those of course he will get his freedom of movement.
So that + the previously mentioned items allows to have most of the stuff from the list for not so much money(still a lot but the fighter with that equipment does not finds itself instantly helpless when out of arm reach of the caster).
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2019-01-22, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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- Virgo Supercluster
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2019-01-22, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Location
- Atlanta, Georgia
- Gender
Re: How to deal with people who demand "teamwork"?
Oh, and all these prices assume that the fighter is paying market price. The thing I would expect a reasonable caster to get in any group is craft wondrous items. That’s likely to cut almost every cost noob correctly cited by 50%. I can tell you I was usually deliriously happy to make the Barbarian gear to reduce my buff load.
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2019-01-22, 05:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2016
Re: How to deal with people who demand "teamwork"?
That wasn't my experience at all in PFS. After lvl 1, (where I was so squishy it was ridiculous) I was pretty much untouchable. "I play human. I start with spell focus conjuration and augment summoning. I summon a celestial eagle. The eagle has three attacks and smites for 1d4+3 each attack." Level 3 I took superior summons and level 4 it was: "I summon (2-4) celestial eagles for 6-12 attacks at 1d4+3 damage each"
Level 6 it was "I summon 1d3+1 small fire elementals"
Level 8 it was cheetahs.
I was putting massive damage onto the field. The problem was giant beatsticks that they simply couldn't hit except on a 20. This is why I am saying in the proposed scenario, a dragon is stupid to summon against, and flying the fighter is by far more effective.
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2019-01-22, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2017
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- Illinois, USA
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Re: How to deal with people who demand "teamwork"?
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2019-01-22, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2014
Re: How to deal with people who demand "teamwork"?
Is this an efficacy v.s. fun argument? Because fun always wins.
The reason people don't go DMM:Persistent Spell CoDzilla clerics or planar shepherd druids is because they don't want to. They don't find playing the optimal thing fun. They find the suboptimal thing fun. That's why they play barbarians and fighters. So if a wizard wants to play a suboptimal shtick for fun, saying what he is doing is useless (eventhough it is true) is not an argument for him to abandon his shtick. Because if you say a wizard casting buffs on the fighter is the right thing to do since it's more optimal, then the fighter switching to a CoDzilla is the right thing to do since it's more optimal as well.
We play the game for fun, and if a player just absolutely loathes preparing a buff spell because of whatever unknown reason then that's that. His character is a 0 buff character like a fighter so his party members just have to accept that, and his spells being inefficient is not an argument.
I guess I was a noob back then because that eagle thing didn't cross my mind. I had augment summoning.Last edited by RoboEmperor; 2019-01-22 at 05:14 PM.
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2019-01-22, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2014
Re: How to deal with people who demand "teamwork"?
There’s a lot of talk in this thread that isn’t “what does each player want their character to be able to do?” I haven’t read the middle half of the thread but I suspect it’s not much different.
If the wizard goes into the campaign expecting to be able to do thing X, and the melee goes into the campaign expecting the wizard to do thing Y instead, there’s been a fundamental mismatch of expectations that needs to be resolved before any symptom of that problem can be fixed. I know what resolution I would prefer as a DM (hint: it stems from WBL constraints and class power disparity), but my table is not every table and ultimately the players need to figure out strategies that are compatible.Excel sheet for 3.5 -- Native support for stacking rules and multiple forms; as lightweight as possible otherwise. (links currently broken, if you want a copy LMK)
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2019-01-22, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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2019-01-22, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2017
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- Illinois, USA
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2019-01-22, 05:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
Re: How to deal with people who demand "teamwork"?
no, it doesn't. your opinion that it is clear is wrong, as is evidenced by the large number of people arguing in this thread about it. the fact is it's unclear, or else there wouldn't be so much dispute over it.
the tone could simply be a result of frustration at having to be a buff bot.
re: celestial eagle issue calth/robo: was your first game in 3.0, 3.5, or pf robo? the 3.5 celestial creature template isn't as good, and eagle doesn't appear on the base list for summon monster 1 in 3.5Last edited by zlefin; 2019-01-22 at 05:21 PM.
A neat custom class for 3.5 system
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94616
A good set of benchmarks for PF/3.5
https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2...y-the-numbers/
An alternate craft point system I made for 3.5
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...t-Point-system
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2019-01-22, 05:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2014
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- Avatar By Astral Seal!
Re: How to deal with people who demand "teamwork"?
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
Spoiler: Former AvatarsSpoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Linkele
Spoiler: Individual Avatar Pics
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2019-01-22, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2016
Re: How to deal with people who demand "teamwork"?
Fair, although it's pretty much saying "Oh yeah? You're ineffective? Well watch me be ineffective too." At some point the party's survival needs to be taken into account. It's one thing to be suboptimal and require a buff. It's another for the whole party to be completely incompetent.
I guess I was a noob back then because that eagle thing didn't cross my mind. I had augment summoning.
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2019-01-22, 05:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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- Virgo Supercluster
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2019-01-22, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2017
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- Illinois, USA
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2019-01-22, 05:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
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2019-01-22, 05:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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2019-01-22, 05:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
Re: How to deal with people who demand "teamwork"?
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2019-01-22, 05:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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- Virgo Supercluster
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Re: How to deal with people who demand "teamwork"?
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2019-01-22, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2017
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- Illinois, USA
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Re: How to deal with people who demand "teamwork"?
You make a good point. :)
To be clear:
To the extent that the fighter would be asking the wizard to exclusively cast on them instead of following their preferred concept: yes, that is dumb and the fighter shouldn’t do it.
There are plenty of people ITT going well beyond that and arguing that there is zero obligation to ever help the fighter do anything. Those people are also dumb, and are the ones currently making my hair fall out.
There is of course a vast middle ground between “always” and “never” and one can reasonably haggle about the exact line, (for instance RoboEmperor’s summoner take seems basically reasonable), but the “never” crowd here is where I’m directing my arguments.
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2019-01-22, 05:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
Re: How to deal with people who demand "teamwork"?
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2019-01-22, 05:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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- Virgo Supercluster
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