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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    This exercise begs the question; What DO we want in an epic monster?

    Kaiju are supposed to be punching bags so far as their lore is concerned.
    Do we want every epic challenge to be wizard Godzilla?

    Is Galactus a threat purely due to his size?

    Perhaps late season Stargate style Replicators on occasion.

    What exactly constitutes an epic threat, let alone an epic monster?
    These are all good questions. A big part of the problem with answering them is that epic play is so abysmally designed, that it's in desperate need of a major redesign.
    Last edited by ColorBlindNinja; 2019-01-23 at 03:15 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    The demiplane-stomach idea is pretty cool actually. I may steal that for later use.
    No need to steal it, it's already a thing. Check out Dalmosh in MM5.
    Known among friends as "Ogres"

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    ...so as we can see, no internal consistency from WotC (unsurprising).

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary


    A face that not even his mother could love.

    Ah yes, Ganesha's Chicken-winged and Malformed 5th cousin 9th removed after FAS got ahold of him. This one, while annoying, is just a massive punching bag with so little tricks up its' sleev- uhh arm pockets that it's easily defeated.

    The most annoying powers it has are probably the Internal Limbo, Breath Weapon(which leads to the previous), At-Will Blasphemy (CL 69), Terrible trumpeting (240 ft. radius, Will DC 60 or Confusion 65 rounds), and Ungodly Stench (lasts as long as you're within range +1d4+1 rounds after)
    Last edited by Aniikinis; 2019-01-23 at 05:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quarian Rex View Post
    Sometimes you need more than well crafted crunch. Sometimes you need well crafted crunch that is playable in the game.
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    My Hombrew

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    [...] D&D 3.5 becomes hopelessly broken by level 15 or so. Level 21 and beyond are a screaming nightmare of game imbalance, imagine how horrifying attempting to run an encounter with a monster with a triple digit challenge rating?
    No, absolutely not true! If you are playing in Tippyverse, sure maybe. But I have never been in any game or campaign where this was even remotely true. Sure you can create Pun Pun at level 1, and so the game is just inherently broken. That has nothing to do with level, but all to do with how willing the players and DM are to just break the game...

    We currently run a lower/mid level optimized game and we are level 31-32. There is nothing broken here! We have fun and combat is neither epic-(press enter to win)-magic or any infinity loops granting infinite actions...

    When ever people talk about all this brokenness, like you do here, I get sad, because they must have played with some epic jerks... if you played in my party, level 32 is just level 1 with higher numbers, coupled with more cool class abilities and feats.


    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    Good luck dispelling its buffs!
    Mordenkainen's Distjunction... Done!



    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    That's the problem. You can't tell.

    Challenge rating in third edition is borked, mainly because player power level is borked. Blasty McFiremage, the Wizard 15/Archmage 5 who picks Meteor Swarm as his first ninth level spell because it makes a big boom is not remotely in the same league as Godmage von Batman, the Incantatrix/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, who sends gated solars with buff spells out to solve the actual adventure while his Astral Projection and the rest of the party have a feast in their Magnificient Mansion on Arborea. Either of them is still above any given monk you care to name.

    Epic only makes this worse. How much epic spell DC mitigation does your DM allow? That's pretty much the only question that matters anymore. With enough ritual participants you can invent a spell that does arbitrary damage.

    There's just nothing to balance against anymore, so CR is meaningless at this point. Even without the worst excesses of theoretical optimization.
    Right... Again its not the level as in 15 or 21, or 50 its about what the players and DM think is fun... Pun Pun is just the upper level of optimizations at level 1... level 21 changes nothing. I wonder how many people actually play Godmage von Batman, the Incantatrix/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil??? I know no one...



    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    [...] epic play is so abysmally designed, that it's in desperate need of a major redesign.
    Again no... not true as a blanket statement! You have to acknowledge that the game is totally defined by what the players and DM agree to. If you agree to turn yourself into a Zodar for free wishes, ergo unlimited level epic items, or a Sarrukh for unlimited stats, then maybe, but when all enemies do the same (obviously if the players figured these tricks out, the BBEG did too), you are again on the same level and as such not necessarily broken!
    Last edited by Melcar; 2019-01-23 at 06:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    I made a demigod for comparison. It was randomized as to how many hit dice it would have and what portfolios it would have. It's... terrible. Just terrible. I only spent 92 million gold on 2 items.

    Azug Azog
    N Wyvern Wyvern 11 Barbarian 24, Level 35+30, Init 14, HP 1420/1420, DR 15/Epic, 6/-, Speed 180 Land/Burrow Fly 450 poor
    AC 108, Touch 26, Flat-footed 100, Fort 94, Ref 63, Will 55, Base Attack Bonus 28
    Acid, Collision, Ghost Touch all weapons Bite +87 (20d10+3d6+68, x2)
    Poison Sting +87 (8d6+3d6+45, x2)
    2 Wings (4d8+3d6+39 for addtional wings (2)) +87 (8d8+3d6+45, x2)
    Resistance Bonus to Saves +32 Breath of Winter (+32 Armor, +8 Dex, -4 Size, +6 Deflect, +50 Natural, +6 Misc)
    Abilities Str 101, Dex 27, Con 83, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 22


    Edit: I gave it actual weapons and recalculated the numbers.

    Edit again: I am really bad at this. Recalculated my items again.

    Edit a third time: Figured out my wealth is only supposed to be ~54 million instead of ~120 million. Cut down to 2 items and a bunch of change.
    Last edited by Karl Aegis; 2019-01-23 at 11:08 PM.
    "Movement speed is the most important statistic in this game."

    "Give them no mercy for they give no mercy to us."

    "I see one of those I kill it!"

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    No, absolutely not true! If you are playing in Tippyverse, sure maybe. But I have never been in any game or campaign where this was even remotely true. Sure you can create Pun Pun at level 1, and so the game is just inherently broken. That has nothing to do with level, but all to do with how willing the players and DM are to just break the game...
    It is generally acknowledged that D&D 3.5 has broken down by level 15.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    We currently run a lower/mid level optimized game and we are level 31-32. There is nothing broken here! We have fun and combat is neither epic-(press enter to win)-magic or any infinity loops granting infinite actions...
    There are epic monsters of the same or lower CR that would paste your group. I don't consider that to be balanced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    When ever people talk about all this brokenness, like you do here, I get sad, because they must have played with some epic jerks... if you played in my party, level 32 is just level 1 with higher numbers, coupled with more cool class abilities and feats.
    If that's the case, your group is pretty unoptimized.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    Mordenkainen's Distjunction... Done!
    That's probably the best way to do that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    Again no... not true as a blanket statement! You have to acknowledge that the game is totally defined by what the players and DM agree to. If you agree to turn yourself into a Zodar for free wishes, ergo unlimited level epic items, or a Sarrukh for unlimited stats, then maybe, but when all enemies do the same (obviously if the players figured these tricks out, the BBEG did too), you are again on the same level and as such not necessarily broken!


    You seriously want to argue that epic isn't broken?

  7. - Top - End - #67
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    It is generally acknowledged that D&D 3.5 has broken down by level 15.
    How? Since you can create Pun pun at level 1, is level 1 broken too? Is playing 4 level 15 fighters broken?


    There are epic monsters of the same or lower CR that would paste your group. I don't consider that to be balanced.
    Doubtful!


    If that's the case, your group is pretty unoptimized.
    Sure... call it that. But the point is the game only "breaks down" if you choose to, therefore it does not automatically happen, ergo its not broken per! You can play a low-mid optimized game and nothing breaks down!


    You seriously want to argue that epic isn't broken?
    Broken how? Against what benchmark? There are rules which can be abused to make Pun Pun at level 1 and there are epic things that break the game... but its about how you use it. Our game is not broken... we choose not to, so I don't abuse the free wishes or the Sarrukh Su ability loops. Our DM said many years ago, that all the tricks we used, any other NPC worth his/her salt knew too... So unless we wanted to fight Pun Pun... we should think carefully what we abused...

    But yes, I would ague that there are faults, but its not broken as in unplayable!

    If its only broken because you can break the game, then that like saying a car is broken because you can crash it! If the game can be played without breaking down, then I would not call the game inherently broken.. especially not at level 15 or 21...


    EDIT: That saves increase faster than its possible to increase the spell DC, mages are actually becoming relatively weaker over time as they increase in level... That's a broken mechanic.
    Last edited by Melcar; 2019-01-23 at 07:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    How? Since you can create Pun pun at level 1, is level 1 broken too? Is playing 4 level 15 fighters broken?
    Well for one thing, the core assumptions the game was designed on have fully broken down by this point.

    Tier 1s have access to an incredible amount of power, often gamebreaking amounts of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    Doubtful!
    Can you post links to your character sheets?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    Sure... call it that. But the point is the game only "breaks down" if you choose to, therefore it does not automatically happen, ergo its not broken per! You can play a low-mid optimized game and nothing breaks down!
    Eh, no. The game most certainly is broken, you have to take specific steps to stop it from breaking.


    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    Broken how? Against what benchmark? There are rules which can be abused to make Pun Pun at level 1 and there are epic things that break the game... but its about how you use it. Our game is not broken... we choose not to, so I don't abuse the free wishes or the Sarrukh Su ability loops. Our DM said many years ago, that all the tricks we used, any other NPC worth his/her salt knew too... So unless we wanted to fight Pun Pun... we should think carefully what we abused...

    But yes, I would ague that there are faults, but its not broken as in unplayable!
    Epic is completely and thoroughly a mess. At this point, the Fighters are at their most linear, the Wizards at their most quadratic.

    Epic spellcasting alone is more than capable of snapping the game in two.

    Pun Pun is moot in this case because no one ever tries to play as him.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    Well for one thing, the core assumptions the game was designed on have fully broken down by this point.

    Tier 1s have access to an incredible amount of power, often gamebreaking amounts of it.
    What exactly is game-breaking? And who plays a game that breaks down?

    Can you post links to your character sheets?
    Not sure how... its not online. And I don't have a scanner... But the classes are 15 Wizard 5 Arcane Avatar (Quintessential Wizard), 5 Arch Mage (3.0 version), Wizard King (Path of Magic), 2 Wordbearer (Quintessential Wizard), Stats are Str 12, Dex 23, Con 24, Int, 43, Wiz 23, Cha 9. Ill see if I can do something to upload it!


    Eh, no. The game most certainly is broken, you have to take specific steps to stop it from breaking.
    Can you elaborate? Do you mean line choosing not to chain gate solars not using infinity loops? I would like some examples...


    Epic is completely and thoroughly a mess. At this point, the Fighters are at their most linear, the Wizards at their most quadratic.

    Epic spellcasting alone is more than capable of snapping the game in two.

    Pun Pun is moot in this case because no one ever tries to play as him.
    1) Could you explain what you mean with quadratic?
    2) Then dont use it!
    3) Pun Pun is moot sure, but I would argues that chain gating solars would be moot then too... Who plays that way??? Again if everyone does it, then its no problem, but again who except maybe Tippy runs such a character especially if there are low op fighters in the group?
    Last edited by Melcar; 2019-01-23 at 07:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    What exactly is game-breaking? And who plays a game that breaks down?
    A lot of the tier 1's spell list is gamebreaking. Gate, Shapechange, Ice Assassin, Genesis, ect.

    D&D 3.5 was designed with the idea that the Fighter would tank, the Rogue would use skills and Sneak Attack, the Cleric heals and Wizard blasts.

    That style of gameplay doesn't cut it against many high CR opponents.


    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    Not sure how... its not online. And I don't have a scanner... But the classes are 15 Wizard 5 Arcane Avatar (Quintessential Wizard), 5 Arch Mage (3.0 version), Wizard King (Path of Magic), 2 Wordbearer (Quintessential Wizard), Stats are Str 12, Dex 23, Con 24, Int, 43, Wiz 23, Cha 9. Ill see if I can do something to upload it!
    Alright, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    Can you elaborate? Do you mean line choosing not to chain gate solars not using infinity loops? I would like some examples...
    It's a ton of things.

    You can't have a well played tier 1 with tier 5 classes without the tier 5 classes being overshadowed, for example.

    Not to mention the aforementioned spells with gamebreaking properties.

    Gating in a powerful monster to smash a single encounter qualifiers.

    Or using Planar Binding, at all.

    There are higher OP games that can handle this sort of thing better, but many tables can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    1) Could you explain what you mean with quadratic?
    Wizards get stronger more quickly than Fighters do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    2) Then dont use it!
    It's still part of the game and it's very broken.


    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    3) Pun Pun is moot sure, but I would argues that chain gating solars would be moot then too... Who plays that way??? Again if everyone does it, then its no problem, but again who except maybe Tippy runs such a character especially if there are low op fighters in the group?
    Yeah, most people don't chain Gate Solars. But the game doesn't become literally unplayable if you do that, while the same is not true of Pun Pun.

  11. - Top - End - #71
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    A lot of the tier 1's spell list is gamebreaking. Gate, Shapechange, Ice Assassin, Genesis, ect.
    Do the games really break tho? And for whom? Can they really be said to mean "game over, game is not unplayable?" Is it not up to the "jerk" optimizing more that the rest of party? Or abusing certain things, just like Pun Pun does?

    D&D 3.5 was designed with the idea that the Fighter would tank, the Rogue would use skills and Sneak Attack, the Cleric heals and Wizard blasts.

    That style of gameplay doesn't cut it against many high CR opponents.
    True. One could call it a broken part of the game, but the game is still very much playable and enjoyable, and it becomes a dificult task for the DM, but if the party if very low op, then just trow low CR at them...




    Alright, thanks.
    Spoiler: Melcar Silverdragon
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    Male human (Age 45) Wizard 15/ Arcane Avatar 5/ Arch Mage 5/Wizard King 5/ Wordbearer 2: CR 32; Medium–size humanoid (human); HD 15d4 plus 5d4 plus 5d4 plus 5d6 plus 1d4 plus 217; hp 343; Init + 9; spd 30 ft.; AC 30 (touch 22, flat-footed 25); Atk + 20/+15 melee (1d4+5/19-20, +4 silver dagger) or +20/+15 ranged touch (by spell); SQ Arcane Avatar abilities, Arch Mage High Arcana, Wizard King abilities, Wordbearer abilities, enhanced constitution, enhanced intelligence, SR 30; AL CG; SV Fort +24, Ref +22, Will +30, (+5 bonus vs. spells and spell-like effects); Str 12, Dex 21, Con 24, Int 43, Wis 23, Cha 9; Height 6 ft. 2 in.
    Skills and Feats:, Appraise +16, Balance +5, Bluff +0, Climb +1, Concentration +42, Decipher Script +22, Diplomacy 2, Disguise -1, Escape Artist +5, Forgery +17, Gather Information 1, Heal +17, Hide +5, Intimidate -1, Jump +6, Knowledge (Arcana) +54, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +34, Knowledge (Elven Culture) +34, Knowledge (Geography) +34, Knowledge (History) +35, Knowledge (Imaskar) +34, Knowledge (Nature) +34, Knowledge (Netherill) +34, Knowledge (The Planes) +37, Knowledge (Religion) +37, Listen +23, Move Silently +5, Perform -1, Ride +5, Search +22, Sense Motive +7, Spellcraft +58, Spot +23, Swim +1, Use Rope +5, Survival +6;Feats: Automatic Quicken x3, Practiced Spellcaster, Empower Spell, Eschew Materials, Great Intelligence, Improved Initiative, Improved Meta-magic, Insightful Caster, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Scribe scroll, Silent Spell, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spellcasting Prodegy, Spellfire Wielder, Spell Focus (evocation), Spell Focus (transmutation), Spell Penetration, Still Spell, Summon Familiar.
    Special Qualities: Arcane Avatar abilities: Avatar of magic, augment magic, call spell, counter-magic, master of magic; Arch Mage High Arcana: Mastery of elements, mastery of shaping, spell power +1, spell power +2, spell power +3; Wizard King special abilities: Mastered spells, increased spell power, arcane resistance, fundamentals of magic, enhanced intelligence.

    Spellfire (Su): Melcar has the ability to control spellfire, like that of the feat, Spellfire wielder.

    Avatar of Magic (Ex): Melcar’s physical form is infused with magical power. Energy washes over him without harm or flows through him and his spells as he chooses. He has Spell resistance 15+ his charisma modifier. Melcar continuously radiates magic, and can thus be seen with detect magic spell or effect. He also sees magical auras with his regular vision. He has detect magic as his normal vision as a supernatural ability.

    Augment Magic (Ex): Melcar cast all his spells still and silent as of the meta-magic feats of the same name. He does this without increasing their level.

    Call spell (Ex): When preparing his spells for the day, Melcar may sacrifice any two spell slots of a given level to prepare any spell of the same level from his spell list. For example, if Melcar did not have the spell lightning bolt in his books he could choose to prepare it by using two of his level 3 spell slots.

    Counter-Magic (Ex): When attempting to counter an opponent’s casting, Melcar need not use dispel magic or his enemies spell. Instead he attempts to choke off the flow of energy to his foe’s casting. Instead of casting a spell to counter his enemy he imposes his force of will on the magical patterns that surrounds him.

    Master of Magic (Ex): Once per day, Melcar may enter a meditative state in which he melds his spirit with the magical energy and patterns that surround him. In this state, he command s absolute control over the arcane magic en his direct vicinity. He shunts magic away from his enemies while allowing it to flow to his body and mind.

    Mastery of Elements (Ex): Melcar can cast anyarcane spell he knows with the acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic designator to be cast as a different element. For example, a fireball may be cast to deal sonic damage instead of fire damage.

    Mastery of Shaping (Ex): Melcar can alter area and effect spells that use the following categories: burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, or spread. The alteration consists of creating spaces within the spell’s area or effect that are not subject to the spell. The minimum dimension for these spaces is a 5-foot cube. For example, she could cast a fireball and leave a hole where her ally stands, preventing any fire damage. Furthermore, any shapeable (S) spells have a minimum dimension of 5 feetinstead of 10 feet.

    Spell Power +1 (Ex): Melcar receives +1 to the save DC of his spells. This effect stack with spell power 2 and 3

    Spell Power +2 (Ex): Melcar receives +2 to the save DC of his spells. This effect stack with spell power 1 and 3.

    Spell Power +3 (Ex): Melcar receives +3 to the save DC of his spells. This effect stack with spell power 1 and 2.

    Mastered Spells (Ex): Melcar may cast Teleport without Error in place of other prepared spells at any time. In order to do this, the character merely casts the spell and then marks one prepared spell off his list. This ability works exactly like the spontaneous casting of a cleric.

    Increased Spell Power (Ex): Melcar’s spells from the schools of Evocation and Transmutation has their save DC increased by two.

    Arcane Resistance (Ex): Melcar has a +3 circumstance bonus to all saves against spells and spell-like abilities.

    Fundamentals of Magic (Ex): Melcar has 10 levels of free meta-magic levels.

    Enhanced Intelligence (Ex): Melcar has a +4 legendary bonus to his Intelligence.

    Word of Power, Sleep (Su): With the pronouncement of a single, primal syllable, the wordbearer forces a single foe within 60 ft. to collapse to the ground, deeply asleep. This word forces a creature’s mind to immediately shut down and enter the state of sleep. This ability works only against creatures that are capable of hearing spoken words and vulnerable to the sleep spell. The victim of this ability may make a Will save to resist its effects. A creature forced asleep by this power awakens in 1d4 hours or if forcefully shaken or disturbed, as per the sleep spell. The wordbearer may speak this word three times per day.

    Word of Power, Terror (Su): This word of power arouses crippling fear in a single subject, freezing him in place as his muscles become rigid and his mind blanks. The victim is allowed a Will save (DC 20 + Int modifier) to overcome this effect. On a failed save, the creature is helpless. All melee attacks against a helpless target gain a +4 bonus to hit. A helpless creature treats his Dexterity score as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier was –5. As a full-round action, an opponent may deliver a coup de grace against a helpless creature. On a successful save, the victim still suffers the effects of a close brush with his deepest fears. He is considered shaken, suffering a –2 morale penalty to all attacks, damage rolls, and saving throws. The effects of this ability last for 2d4 rounds. The Wordbearer may speak this word three times per day. Mindless creatures and creatures immune to fear-effects are not subject to this word of power.

    Enhanced Intelligence (Ex): Melcar has a +5 inherent bonus to his Intelligence.

    Enhanced Constitution (Ex): Melcar has a +1 inherent bonus to his constitution.

    Wizard Spells per Day: 5/11/10/10/10/9/9/8/8/8/8. Base DC 35 + spell level, 38 + spell level for Evocation and Transmutation spells. Caster level 32.




    It's a ton of things.

    You can't have a well played tier 1 with tier 5 classes without the tier 5 classes being overshadowed, for example.

    Not to mention the aforementioned spells with gamebreaking properties.

    Gating in a powerful monster to smash a single encounter qualifiers.

    Or using Planar Binding, at all.

    There are higher OP games that can handle this sort of thing better, but many tables can't.
    So you are calling the game broken because a fighter and a wizard is not equal in terms of power at the same level? This I would call unfortunate, but not broken, but if thats what you mean then I'm inclined to agree somewhat... but again that's not something that makes the game unplayable just enjoyable... I equate broken to being unplayable! If you use broken for poor writing or bad game design then sure its broken!



    Wizards get stronger more quickly than Fighters do.
    Ahh... ok. But it that broken tho?



    It's still part of the game and it's very broken.
    But so is Pun Pun... Yeah sure no one plays him, but its possible, just as its possible not to... Its as easy to not choose Pun Pun as it is to not choose Epic Magic...



    Yeah, most people don't chain Gate Solars. But the game doesn't become literally unplayable if you do that, while the same is not true of Pun Pun.
    Fair enough, but the outcome could be the same if you have low op fighters in the party... I mean if Broken is equal to unbalance then chain gating solars are doing just that unless the other players do that too or the enemies do it... I assume the enemies would too...
    Last edited by Melcar; 2019-01-24 at 05:12 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

  12. - Top - End - #72
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    How? Since you can create Pun pun at level 1, is level 1 broken too? Is playing 4 level 15 fighters broken?
    Pun pun requires a whole bunch of splatbooks and one specific badly written ability to work. That's very different than in-core broken spells and abilities.


    Sure... call it that. But the point is the game only "breaks down" if you choose to, therefore it does not automatically happen, ergo its not broken per! You can play a low-mid optimized game and nothing breaks down!
    This argument doesn't work at three levels. First, what people consider optimized varies massively from group to group or even within a group. Second, one of the more serious problems is that many of the most seriously broken things come from wizards, and wizards in-game the hyper intelligent people who are trying to break the laws of the universe. If an int 22 wizard isn't optimizing their spell selection, then they likely aren't roleplaying well. Third, in order to avoid too much optimization one has to cut out whole swaths of the game; I'm not convinced the level 15 claim is true, but certainly by level 21 the degree to which epic spellcasting can be abused renders many in game threats irrelevant. And epic spellcasting is a system where one is explicitly able to make new spells; note that if one restricts to the existing spells then the system is insanely weak and hard to use.


    Our DM said many years ago, that all the tricks we used, any other NPC worth his/her salt knew too... So unless we wanted to fight Pun Pun... we should think carefully what we abused...
    Is this something your PCs are aware of in game? How is this not functionally bad metagaming? "Oh, I could take Maximized Time-Stop as a spell-like ability, but if I do it, the Dark Lord might also" makes no sense.

    EDIT: That saves increase faster than its possible to increase the spell DC, mages are actually becoming relatively weaker over time as they increase in level... That's a broken mechanic.
    This comment suggests that you simply don't know much about how to optimize mages. First, this is to a large extent not true. Second, by the time you are high level, one shouldn't be targeting things which allow a save anyways.

    I absolutely love 3.5 and PF but that doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that getting them to work well at high levels in a consistent way requires a lot of either rule changes or having PCs actively restrain their own choices in ways which stretch credulity.
    Last edited by JoshuaZ; 2019-01-23 at 08:35 PM.
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    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



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    d20 Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    …and now I'm reminded of the hordling generator page I made ages ago; I forgot how high I got with it (due to memory limitations), but CR 500,000 seemed adequate enough.
    Last edited by Âmesang; 2020-01-05 at 10:54 AM.
    3e5e : Quintessa's Dweomerdrain (Drain power from a magic item to fuel your spells)
    3e │ 5e : Quintessa's Dweomershield (Protect target from the full effects of a magic item)
    3e │ 5e : Hordling Generator (Edit "cr=" in the address bar to adjust the Challenge Rating)
    3e │ 5e : Battle Sorcerer Tables (For Unearthed Arcana)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Pun pun requires a whole bunch of splatbooks and one specific badly written ability to work. That's very different than in-core broken spells and abilities.
    Ok... But fair enough. We use all official content, so I dont look at it that way.


    This argument doesn't work at three levels. First, what people consider optimized varies massively from group to group or even within a group. Second, one of the more serious problems is that many of the most seriously broken things come from wizards, and wizards in-game the hyper intelligent people who are trying to break the laws of the universe. If an int 22 wizard isn't optimizing their spell selection, then they likely aren't roleplaying well. Third, in order to avoid too much optimization one has to cut out whole swaths of the game; I'm not convinced the level 15 claim is true, but certainly by level 21 the degree to which epic spellcasting can be abused renders many in game threats irrelevant. And epic spellcasting is a system where one is explicitly able to make new spells; note that if one restricts to the existing spells then the system is insanely weak and hard to use.
    I agree that the first thing was to agree to a definition... if we don't the whole discussion is moot.

    You have always been able to create your own spells...


    Is this something your PCs are aware of in game? How is this not functionally bad metagaming? "Oh, I could take Maximized Time-Stop as a spell-like ability, but if I do it, the Dark Lord might also" makes no sense.
    Well... it was for the players. Sure its meta-knowledge, but he did it because he wanted us (me the wizard) to think hard on how much optimization I wanted, because it could get out of hands... fast. Also, that if my mage of under 50 years thought of the trick we could be sure Larloch, Szass Tam and other BBEG had thought of it too...

    You might not like it, but if worked for us. So, my mage simple does not (ingame) know of the abusive nature of the Sarrukh Su ability or stuff like that... luckily we haven't meat anyone who did.. Not yet at least


    This comment suggests that you simply don't know much about how to optimize mages. First, this is to a large extent not true. Second, by the time you are high level, one shouldn't be targeting things which allow a save anyways.
    The save increate a 1/2 levels. Spell DC does not inherently increase, only by increasing your stats, Spell level or Spell Focus feats... It does not happen just by increasing in level as does save. I do know how to optimize, I have read all the guides... But I dont like to, nor would it fit my character...


    I absolutely love 3.5 and PF but that doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that getting them to work well at high levels in a consistent way requires a lot of either rule changes or having PCs actively restrain their own choices in ways which stretch credulity.
    #Me too... he he

    It a matter of definition first off, and how much of a problem you think the flaws are, combined with the type of player you are playing with... and the makeup of the specific game being played. The game contains options that makes Pun Pun possible, but at level 50 you could be having a great time playing too... without anyone feeling left out or the game breaking (whatever that means)

    I totally agree that there are tons of poor writing, poor design, flawed abilities, too few options for mundanes and the list goes on, but I don't think the game is so poorly written that the game breaks, as in becomes so imbalanced between tier 1 and 5, that the game is no longer playable... not in and of itself. If that happens at level 15 or 21 then that's the players going for imbalance! A jerk wizard and a lax DM letting him outshine the unoptimized monk... or what ever...
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    Ok... But fair enough. We use all official content, so I dont look at it that way.
    But in practice you are cutting out a massive amount of official content.


    I agree that the first thing was to agree to a definition... if we don't the whole discussion is moot.
    I'm not sure what your point is here. What definition is in question in my comment?

    You have always been able to create your own spells...
    Epic spellcasting is a system which has extremely detailed and specific rules about how to create epic spells. That's very different than a handwavy statement to DMs.


    Well... it was for the players. Sure its meta-knowledge, but he did it because he wanted us (me the wizard) to think hard on how much optimization I wanted, because it could get out of hands... fast. Also, that if my mage of under 50 years thought of the trick we could be sure Larloch, Szass Tam and other BBEG had thought of it too...

    You might not like it, but if worked for us. So, my mage simple does not (ingame) know of the abusive nature of the Sarrukh Su ability or stuff like that... luckily we haven't meat anyone who did.. Not yet at least
    If it works for you, more power to you and your group. But the fact is that you are massively cutting out things from the game, and not just stuff like Sarrukh's abilities but a large part of the material you can find in the SRD. No one is asserting that there are not solutions and it can be made to work. The point is that it requires a lot of *effort* to do so. As you yourself say, you are engaging in major metagaming to explain why your wizard doesn't do some things.


    The save increate a 1/2 levels. Spell DC does not inherently increase, only by increasing your stats, Spell level or Spell Focus feats...
    Stat increases happen automatically. A wizard is going to keep increasing their intelligence, and get items which increase intelligence. And only the strongest saves increase at 1/2 level. A minimally intelligent wizard doesn't target the strongest save but the weakest save, and that's before we get to the fact that I specifically discussed not targeting saves at all.


    I do know how to optimize, I have read all the guides... But I dont like to, nor would it fit my character...
    So again you have to specifically make characters who, despite the incredible dangers around them, with possibly the fate of the world at hand, and being smarter than almost any other human on the planet (and certainly smarter than a normal human), decides to not bother using the best spells they can.

    And one thing to keep in mind is that there are a lot of games out there where one doesn't need to worry about players being "jerks" or accidentally optimizing too much. E6-core for example works pretty well, and E6 works pretty well even with a whole bunch of splat books thrown. Because low level D&D is actually not that broken. There's a substantial change happening. If one prefers imagine a new player entering your group who hasn't played with you before and hasn't discussed the balance point much at all. What's the chance that at 5th level their new character is overpowered or underpowered compared to the other players? By how much? Now imagine this at 15th level or 25th level. Notice the chance of something being drastically mispowered goes up.
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    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    But in practice you are cutting out a massive amount of official content.
    But you are always doing that... I character can only have so much classes, feats etc... Choosing not to Pun Pun is not removing a whole lot of stuff. When you build your character you might just build for something that is not Pun Pun... or Incantatrix... Thats not the same as removing stuff from the game...


    I'm not sure what your point is here. What definition is in question in my comment?
    I'm just saying that a discussion of what is broken requires a fairly agreed upon definition of what broken means. When I use broken i mean unplayable. How I define unplayable is not set in stone... it could mean a lot of things... Sadly it now easy to agree really...


    Epic spellcasting is a system which has extremely detailed and specific rules about how to create epic spells. That's very different than a handwavy statement to DMs.
    Indeed... but the DM still tells you plenty. And yes the Epic Magic system is very poorly written, why I don't think its cool, and why my mage has opted to not use it yet...


    If it works for you, more power to you and your group. But the fact is that you are massively cutting out things from the game, and not just stuff like Sarrukh's abilities but a large part of the material you can find in the SRD. No one is asserting that there are not solutions and it can be made to work. The point is that it requires a lot of *effort* to do so. As you yourself say, you are engaging in major metagaming to explain why your wizard doesn't do some things.
    I think its fair to assume that what your character knows are based on his knowledge checks. I also think its fair to assume that since the game world is not overrun by Pun Puns, its simply not possible or else Larloch, Ioulaum, Szass Tam or the Srinshee would have done it by now... Maybe the knowledge of the Sarrukh's abilities have been lost to the ages, and that's the reason for why there are no Pun Puns in the game world. My wizard does not do certain things because its not his style. I don't use a familiar, I don't bind demons, devils or celestials, I don't live on a pocket plane because I have never found that spell ingame, nor do I think its cool. Obviously I'm choosing options that are adequate to the challenge of the game as a whole, but more so I'm choosing things I think is cool and that fit the overall demeanor and style of the character... Some DM's might throw epic dragons at us and so I would gate in abominations from ELH, but I consider that weak... having to get "friends" to help you... The classes that my wizard has, is mainly chosen for its fluff, but also if it brings some added ability or power to the character... So not the most powerful PrC in the game...


    Stat increases happen automatically. A wizard is going to keep increasing their intelligence, and get items which increase intelligence. And only the strongest saves increase at 1/2 level. A minimally intelligent wizard doesn't target the strongest save but the weakest save, and that's before we get to the fact that I specifically discussed not targeting saves at all.
    Yes at 1/4 level so for each 8 level you get +1 to DC. The same 8 levels gives +4 to saves... And its all three saves that increase! Items yes, but items can increase saves more.. because saves are cheaper than stats. Indeed a wizard should try to use spells that attack the weakest save or use Save: No spells, but my point was that its an actually design that ends op making a wizard unable to get spells in.


    So again you have to specifically make characters who, despite the incredible dangers around them, with possibly the fate of the world at hand, and being smarter than almost any other human on the planet (and certainly smarter than a normal human), decides to not bother using the best spells they can.
    Well you have to understand that not all games are created equally. The arms race between player and DM we are long pased... We have yet to have any fate of the world quests... and the chances that they would come up in the time our characters are alive, considering the planet is around 40k old, are small. And if they did there are more powerful beings to take care of that. Because if its the fate of the planet at risk, you can be damn sure that we would not be able to stop it... If were talking Pandorym level risk... anything less than that is not really the fate of the world...


    And one thing to keep in mind is that there are a lot of games out there where one doesn't need to worry about players being "jerks" or accidentally optimizing too much. E6-core for example works pretty well, and E6 works pretty well even with a whole bunch of splat books thrown. Because low level D&D is actually not that broken. There's a substantial change happening. If one prefers imagine a new player entering your group who hasn't played with you before and hasn't discussed the balance point much at all. What's the chance that at 5th level their new character is overpowered or underpowered compared to the other players? By how much? Now imagine this at 15th level or 25th level. Notice the chance of something being drastically mispowered goes up.
    I don't know E6...
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    But you are always doing that... I character can only have so much classes, feats etc... Choosing not to Pun Pun is not removing a whole lot of stuff. When you build your character you might just build for something that is not Pun Pun... or Incantatrix... Thats not the same as removing stuff from the game...
    I'm not sure why you keep focusing on Pun Pun; Pun Pun is an extreme example. Many of the game breaking issues are in Core, or are in very commonly owned books like Complete Arcane.

    I'm just saying that a discussion of what is broken requires a fairly agreed upon definition of what broken means. When I use broken i mean unplayable. How I define unplayable is not set in stone... it could mean a lot of things... Sadly it now easy to agree really...
    If the definition is "unplayable" then almost nothing in the universe is unplayable. Heck, by that definition, 3.5 wouldn't be broken even if one changed things so that wizards got twice as many spells per a day as they do, and automatically got the ability when they cast a spell to sacrifice another prepared spell to add the spell's level to the save DC. This suggests that your definition of broken isn't capturing most people's intuitions of the idea.


    Indeed... but the DM still tells you plenty. And yes the Epic Magic system is very poorly written, why I don't think its cool, and why my mage has opted to not use it yet...
    So, we have a fundamental part of high level play which takes up about a third of the epic rules, and it is poorly written and something you opt not to use. How is that not what most people mean when they say broken?


    I think its fair to assume that what your character knows are based on his knowledge checks. I also think its fair to assume that since the game world is not overrun by Pun Puns, its simply not possible or else Larloch, Ioulaum, Szass Tam or the Srinshee would have done it by now... Maybe the knowledge of the Sarrukh's abilities have been lost to the ages, and that's the reason for why there are no Pun Puns in the game world. My wizard does not do certain things because its not his style. I don't use a familiar, I don't bind demons, devils or celestials, I don't live on a pocket plane because I have never found that spell ingame, nor do I think its cool. Obviously I'm choosing options that are adequate to the challenge of the game as a whole, but more so I'm choosing things I think is cool and that fit the overall demeanor and style of the character... Some DM's might throw epic dragons at us and so I would gate in abominations from ELH, but I consider that weak... having to get "friends" to help you... The classes that my wizard has, is mainly chosen for its fluff, but also if it brings some added ability or power to the character... So not the most powerful PrC in the game...
    Please stop focusing on PunPun.

    A wizard doesn't need to know obscure things to know that spells like Forcecage exist or that Wall of Fire exists; both are in core. A wizard can cast both at 13th level. This is devastating. And if you have a level or two in Archmage (a core PrC and a major fluff reason for most wizards to take) then you don't even need to worry about them having resistance or immunity to fire. This isn't the only example. A wizard who is simply being intelligent can do pretty awful stuff.


    but my point was that its an actually design that ends op making a wizard unable to get spells in.
    It is something that attempts at balancing that and fails pretty miserably.


    Well you have to understand that not all games are created equally. The arms race between player and DM we are long pased...
    There doesn't need to be an arms race between players and DMs. The first PC I ever statted up for a game was a battlefield control wizard; I didn't know much about the game, but it was clear that a lot of those spells were more effective than outright damage dealing. I made a functionally close to broken character accidentally. That shouldn't be easily doable.

    We have yet to have any fate of the world quests... and the chances that they would come up in the time our characters are alive, considering the planet is around 40k old, are small. And if they did there are more powerful beings to take care of that. Because if its the fate of the planet at risk, you can be damn sure that we would not be able to stop it... If were talking Pandorym level risk... anything less than that is not really the fate of the world...
    So in order to play D&D without breaking things you have to avoid the most classic sort of quests possible?


    I don't know E6...
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    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    I'm not sure why you keep focusing on Pun Pun; Pun Pun is an extreme example. Many of the game breaking issues are in Core, or are in very commonly owned books like Complete Arcane.

    Fair enough...


    If the definition is "unplayable" then almost nothing in the universe is unplayable. Heck, by that definition, 3.5 wouldn't be broken even if one changed things so that wizards got twice as many spells per a day as they do, and automatically got the ability when they cast a spell to sacrifice another prepared spell to add the spell's level to the save DC. This suggests that your definition of broken isn't capturing most people's intuitions of the idea.
    That's just my definition... What is most people's definition then?



    [QUOTE]So, we have a fundamental part of high level play which takes up about a third of the epic rules, and it is poorly written and something you opt not to use. How is that not what most people mean when they say broken?[QUOTE
    I'm not using it, because i think its uncool primarily... But I don't know what people define as broken...



    Please stop focusing on PunPun.

    A wizard doesn't need to know obscure things to know that spells like Forcecage exist or that Wall of Fire exists; both are in core. A wizard can cast both at 13th level. This is devastating. And if you have a level or two in Archmage (a core PrC and a major fluff reason for most wizards to take) then you don't even need to worry about them having resistance or immunity to fire. This isn't the only example. A wizard who is simply being intelligent can do pretty awful stuff.
    Ok I'll stop...

    Core does not mean they automatically know the spells... I would say that all knowledge is spells are based on Knowledge Arcana...


    There doesn't need to be an arms race between players and DMs. The first PC I ever statted up for a game was a battlefield control wizard; I didn't know much about the game, but it was clear that a lot of those spells were more effective than outright damage dealing. I made a functionally close to broken character accidentally. That shouldn't be easily doable.
    What does "functionally close to broken" mean?



    So in order to play D&D without breaking things you have to avoid the most classic sort of quests possible?
    I did not say that... What I said was, that we have not have had to save the world. Its faerun, things that actually threaten the Planet of Toril or the Crystal Spere are so far beyond us, that basically only the super powerful chosen of whatever deity, the deities themselves or Lord AO will be able to stop - not a few adventures. If we are alble to stop it, its not really threatening the whole world!

    Also, I think that if there are planetary threatening dangers coming every generation, but somehow the planet/world continues without any real effects then they are not really dangerous enough...

    Also I personally think its lame to imagine that our group is the best choice for something that can effectively threaten the entire world... And en Faerun that sort of thing is always taken care of by AO... So yes, no save the world quests thank god! However, much save this land, slay tribe, lich stop wizard imprisoning part of deity's power, stop red wizards etc...




    Cool... I'll check that out!
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post

    That's just my definition... What is most people's definition then?
    I'm not sure what a good definition is, and obviously I-know-it-when-I-see-it isn't great, but if the definition is "not easily playable without serious rule changes" or something close to that, which I think is close to what most people mean, then the basic point about high level D&D is pretty accurate. Unfortunately, while a book like the Immortal Handbook should have handled that, it made things worse (although there are a few things in the Ascension book that don't seem that bad).

    Core does not mean they automatically know the spells... I would say that all knowledge is spells are based on Knowledge Arcana...
    Ok. For a spell in core, what would be the DC to know a 7th level spell?


    What does "functionally close to broken" mean?
    Something close to what I defined above, not being playable without a lot of rule changes or implicit metagaming.



    I did not say that... What I said was, that we have not have had to save the world. Its faerun, things that actually threaten the Planet of Toril or the Crystal Spere are so far beyond us, that basically only the super powerful chosen of whatever deity, the deities themselves or Lord AO will be able to stop - not a few adventures. If we are alble to stop it, its not really threatening the whole world!

    Also, I think that if there are planetary threatening dangers coming every generation, but somehow the planet/world continues without any real effects then they are not really dangerous enough...
    Or the only reason the world has survived is narrative fiat or the anthropic principle. More substantially PCs in Faerun do at those levels stop near world-ending things; multiple of the 3.5 Elder Evils are explicitly set in Faerun and aren't that high level.

    Also I personally think its lame to imagine that our group is the best choice for something that can effectively threaten the entire world... And en Faerun that sort of thing is always taken care of by AO... So yes, no save the world quests thank god! However, much save this land, slay tribe, lich stop wizard imprisoning part of deity's power, stop red wizards etc...
    Ao does very little to actually intervene in Faerun, but it is true that there's more very high level things and high level involvement and divine involvement in the setting than in many other D&D settings. I think actually that one reasons many people don't like Faerun/FR is because there's so many high level beings that it isn't clear why PCs who are anything short of epic should be doing anything at all. And even high level PCs feel like they are running on what amounts to safety rails.

    Cool... I'll check that out!
    You should. It is excellent. A very fun way to play D&D and there are a lot of worlds now built around E6 or systems close to it.
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    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    @ColorBlindNinja:

    Personally, I don´t like certain blanket statements, like "anyone agrees on" or "everybody knows X is broken", as most of the time, they turn out not to be true, at least not as universally true as they people using them like a meme want them to be.

    For example, 3E/3.5E used a very simple design decision: Everything that will be added will only be referenced and cross-checked against core, nothing else. It was the default stance that GMs will add new stuff piece by piece after approval.
    The second design decision is also easy to understand: While the system is designed for transparency, the tools for the GM are build differently than the tools for the players, even tho they are functionally compatible (as in, everything aimed towards players i weighted on the class system, everything for the GM on the CR system, quite a difference).
    (The PF GMG spells out the third design decision the clearest: If a player uses something to break the game, take it away immediately, no arguments. Yes, that is only hinted at with a very tiny voice in the old DMGs, you know, because fear of the tyrannical AD&D 2nd GM, but it´s there, too)

    Generally speaking, the stuff they gave us are options, nothing more. In a group-based social activity, every participant has the responsibility to make the game fun for everyone else, play to the agreed style and power level and be responsible enough with the stuff you use, else you break something.

    You know, stuff like the Tippyverse have already reached meme-like qualities on this forum. If you don't want to end up there, just don't go there, simple as that. Same for the Shadow Apocalypse and similar topics. It´s like, you know, I could drive my Audi at speeds way past 200 Kmh, but I'm not forced to just because I can and especially not if I want a leisurely sunday afternoon cruise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    Amilictli, CR 46

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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    The biggest criticism I've seen of this book is some of the monsters don't really have a place in the game. Any demi-god worth his salt is going to shred all abominations, but quasi-dieties aren't strong enough to challenge an abomination alone. Also, the jump from quasi-diety to demigod gives you an entire 10 ECL, going from ECL 49 at 29 hit dice to 60 at 30 hit dice. This leaves quite a few areas where enemies aren't an appropriate challenge unless in large numbers. I would suggest bumming around at divine ranks longer, maybe increasing hit dice requirements to get to the next bump.
    "Movement speed is the most important statistic in this game."

    "Give them no mercy for they give no mercy to us."

    "I see one of those I kill it!"

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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    Personally, I don´t like certain blanket statements, like "anyone agrees on" or "everybody knows X is broken", as most of the time, they turn out not to be true, at least not as universally true as they people using them like a meme want them to be.
    I said "generally accepted", IIRC.

    EDIT: It turns out I made a more blanket statement in the OP. I mostly did that because it sounds better in an essay. I did mean it to be "generally accepted" even though that's not what I wrote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    For example, 3E/3.5E used a very simple design decision: Everything that will be added will only be referenced and cross-checked against core, nothing else.
    Considering how broken Core is, I'd say that design decision failed utterly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    You know, stuff like the Tippyverse have already reached meme-like qualities on this forum. If you don't want to end up there, just don't go there, simple as that. Same for the Shadow Apocalypse and similar topics. It´s like, you know, I could drive my Audi at speeds way past 200 Kmh, but I'm not forced to just because I can and especially not if I want a leisurely sunday afternoon cruise.
    That doesn't mean that the system isn't broken, just because you avoid the broken bits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Aegis View Post
    The biggest criticism I've seen of this book is some of the monsters don't really have a place in the game. Any demi-god worth his salt is going to shred all abominations, but quasi-dieties aren't strong enough to challenge an abomination alone. Also, the jump from quasi-diety to demigod gives you an entire 10 ECL, going from ECL 49 at 29 hit dice to 60 at 30 hit dice. This leaves quite a few areas where enemies aren't an appropriate challenge unless in large numbers. I would suggest bumming around at divine ranks longer, maybe increasing hit dice requirements to get to the next bump.
    It is worth noting that the second Immortal Handbook product (Ascension) preforms a complete overhaul on how gods and divine ranks function.
    Last edited by ColorBlindNinja; 2019-01-24 at 11:19 AM.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    I said "generally accepted", IIRC.

    EDIT: It turns out I made a more blanket statement in the OP. I mostly did that because it sounds better in an essay. I did mean it to be "generally accepted" even though that's not what I wrote.
    But is it though... at level 15? Could you provide any substantial proof of this statement? Its the first (as in this thread) that I have heard level 15 being "broken".


    Considering how broken Core is, I'd say that design decision failed utterly.
    Could you clarify exactly what you mean when you say broken? Because I have played many games since year 2000 all using PHB and DMG and MM without anything happening... So what does "broken mean?


    That doesn't mean that the system isn't broken, just because you avoid the broken bits.
    No, it just means that it doesn't matter. A wizard can be very powerful without cheesing it.. Especially, when hopyfully the DM and players somewhat makes sure the challenge fits to the party... so whats the problem? Is it really a problem that some people think that the rules don't work?
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    But is it though... at level 15? Could you provide any substantial proof of this statement? Its the first (as in this thread) that I have heard level 15 being "broken".
    I already talked about this. It's mostly the spells that tier 1 classes gain access to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    Could you clarify exactly what you mean when you say broken? Because I have played many games since year 2000 all using PHB and DMG and MM without anything happening... So what does "broken mean?
    Shapechange, Gate, Wish, Simulacrum. Wizards, Druids, Clerics. These are all core and highly overpowered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    No, it just means that it doesn't matter. A wizard can be very powerful without cheesing it.. Especially, when hopyfully the DM and players somewhat makes sure the challenge fits to the party... so whats the problem? Is it really a problem that some people think that the rules don't work?
    That's not this works. If the game has broken content, it has broken content. Whether you choose to use or not doesn't change the fact it's there.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    I already talked about this. It's mostly the spells that tier 1 classes gain access to.
    But is it generally agreed upon tho? Do you have evidence for this statement? Is there a poll or a large base of scientific data on this matter that I'm unaware of...


    Shapechange, Gate, Wish, Simulacrum. Wizards, Druids, Clerics. These are all core and highly overpowered.
    Highly overpowered compared to what? Power and over power are relative terms... If your party is comprised only by wizards and your DM is Tippy??? Then nothing is overpowered... You gotta define what broken means! Is it: to separate into parts with suddenness or violence; or to render inoperable; or do you mean there is an imbalance between things... Can you please define the meaning of the word broken in this context. When I use "broken" it means that its rendered inoperable as in does not function as in unplayable... what do you mean?


    That's not this works. If the game has broken content, it has broken content. Whether you choose to use or not doesn't change the fact it's there.
    But how is it broken and whats the problem? It honestly very difficult having an enlightened conversations when the very definition of the thing we discuss is not clear.
    Last edited by Melcar; 2019-01-24 at 04:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    But is it generally agreed upon tho? Do you have evidence for this statement? Is there a poll or a large base of scientific data on this matter that I'm unaware of...



    Highly overpowered compared to what? Power and over power are relative terms... If your party is comprised only by wizards and your DM is Tippy??? Then nothing is overpowered... You gotta define what broken means! Is it: to separate into parts with suddenness or violence; or to render inoperable; or do you mean there is an imbalance between things... Can you please define the meaning of the word broken in this context. When I use "broken" it means that its rendered inoperable as in does not function as in unplayable... what do you mean?



    But how are they broken and whats the problem? It honestly very difficult having an enlightened conversations when the very definition of the thing we discuss is not clear.

    No offense, but this might be a subject to create an entirely new thread about.

    EDIT: It's a pretty big topic that will probably go on for several dozen pages.
    Last edited by ColorBlindNinja; 2019-01-24 at 04:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    I would be very interested in seeing the next monster in this very odd bestiary. Much better than yet another thread arguing over the "brokenness"(or lack thereof) of 3.5.

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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    I would be very interested in seeing the next monster in this very odd bestiary. Much better than yet another thread arguing over the "brokenness"(or lack thereof) of 3.5.
    I agree. Blanket statements are never 100% true. Next entry
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    DMG 3.5e page 41:
    "If a player behaves in a way you don't want them to behave, talk to them about it. If they continue, stop playing with them. "
    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

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    Default Re: Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

    Ask and you shall receive.


    Odium, CR 33


    Once again, I really couldn't find a working picture, it looks like a giant Venus fly trap with tentacles.


    As if the book heard me complaining about how samey all the previous monsters are, it gives us this thing! This plant creature enslaves people starting with rural areas and eventually, taking over the entire world! Like some kind of plant supervillain. Fluffwise, the Odium results from the creations of nature gods that were corrupted, which is neat.

    The Odium casts as a 27th level Druid (CL 59) and gets a nice collection of SLAs (also CL 59), including Shapechange and Dominate Monster.

    They also can enslave people by grappling them, which as far as I can tell isn’t mind effecting. It always has 1d6-1 puppets of levels that are equal to 1d10+20. On average, that’s 3 level 25 characters and the Odium explicitly prefers Arcane spellcasters and warriors. Meaning, it probably has at least 1 epic spellcaster in its employ.

    Worse still, the Odium can create a seed that will slowly grow into a clone if the original is slain. It’s also got Regeneration 25 and DR 25, both bypassed by epic and good.

    Furthermore, this creature has epic spellcasting (albeit with some crappy epic spells) and can summon a Mu Spore once per day. To top it all off, the Odium has 12 tentacle attacks to use, making meleeing one a dicey proposition at best.

    The Odium is the first monster in this book that I think is worth its challenge rating. Even right out of the box, it has Shapechange and with a bit of DM customization, it becomes infinitely more dangerous.

    It will likely have access to at least one epic spellcaster and whatever minions it nabbed with its spells. Finally, even if the PCs kill it, it probably will just emerge from a seed it planted at some far-off lair.

    I think this is the first monster in this book that I truly like and if I ever ran an epic game, I might want to include one.

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