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2019-01-23, 07:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go
Again, sure, if the servants of the twelve who call themselves paladins are actually operating under some alternative code of conduct or a different definition of evil, then they can do whatever. But then they're not actually D&D paladins operating in a universe based on objective moral standards, and you can't make appeals to standard D&D mechanics to explain who falls and who doesn't.
Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2019-01-23, 10:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go
Weird how often that comes up. I wonder how many different people have to call out Lacuna for arguing in bad faith before he stops doing that. (I don't think it would matter, as he's said before that he wouldn't be convinced by literally everyone on the board disagreeing with him about something; like his hero Miko, he will never "even acknowledge that he could, in fact, be wrong.")
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2019-01-23, 10:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2012
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- Ottawa, Canada
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Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go
My sense is that Miko got the “blue bolt of disapproval” because she killed her defenseless liege lord, the person who was primarily responsible for protecting the Gate, while an army seeking to control the Gate was headed for the city.
She took an action that was severely non-LG and that was utterly and imminently destructive to the purpose the Sapphire Guard was created for. I can see why the combination of those two things would provoke the personal intervention of the Twelve Gods in the way that an action that was “merely” the former (even if more egregiously so) would not. Gin-Jun’s actions were, a O-Chul pounted out, counterproductive to the security of Azurites, but they were not as immediately and massively opposite to the Sapphire Guard’s defining purpose of defending the Gates as Miko’s were.
However, I do agree that the prequel books (SOD, HTPGHS, and OTOOPC) show paladins behaving in ways that would, by any reasonable definition of Lawful Good, cause them to fall; and it’s rather convenient for Rich that the black-and-white art means we have no visual demonstration of whether a paladin has fallen.
(I think there’s a pretty strong indication that Gin-Jun did Fall at some point, because there’s no way a lower-level acolyte could one-hit-kill a paladin.)Last edited by LadyEowyn; 2019-01-23 at 10:40 PM.
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2019-01-24, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go
in the hands of an author, any hit can be a critical hit, or a lethal hit, and a complete jerk can be attractive to a good looking lady.
Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-01-24 at 12:20 AM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2019-01-24, 12:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Washington D.C.
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Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-01-24, 12:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go
Heh, I just realized that Belkar in that scene exhibits all three tenets of The Tao of Steve.
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2019-01-24, 02:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go
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2019-01-24, 01:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2016
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- Elemental Plane of Water
Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go
They're not D&D Paladins; they are OOTS Paladins. Rich is on record saying that the world doesn't operate under D&D rules, but OOTS rules--which are like D&D rules except when they aren't. I can't pull up the exact quote at the moment, but I believe it is in the Index.
And yes, I know that saying "D&D rules except when not" is like splitting hairs, because it is basically the same thing as D&D. But even then--and as others have pointed out--D&D can be highly subjective, especially in regards to alignment. If Rich's interpretation of the Paladin Code is different from your own, then that's just how it goes in OOTS world.
EDIT:
Not sure how I missed the post, but I agree with the above.Last edited by The Aboleth; 2019-01-24 at 01:17 PM.
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2019-01-24, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Oregon, USA
Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2019-01-24, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2004
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Re: What are the criteria for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Gods"?
I think that is the key. Miko's action drew the anger of all 12 gods simultaneously, and the display is the manifestation of an extremely rare instant consensus of the Twelve. That the Twelve could have had 12 entirely reasons for their conclusion is not important. And, in this situation, I think the Evil gods all had a positive conviction of some kind against Miko, not a generic "I vote against paladins because I am evil."
Falling is possible for a Paladin by pissing off one single god you happen to be dedicated to.* Such happens but it is far from common. Some Paladins fall by pissing off a few Good gods. It is a real "accomplishment" to get instantly get more than 11 against you.
* It is not necessarily that Falls happen more often if you are dedicated to a single god as a Paladin. A more focused philosophy also provides more concrete mitigating circumstances. "He failed at Ideal A because he was trying too hard to achieve Ideal B, both of which are important to Me."I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2019-01-24, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2016
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- Elemental Plane of Water
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2019-01-27, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go
On the topic of falling, is it guaranteed that someone who “slipped up” and fell wouldn’t be allowed to atone and resume/rejoin the guard? Hinjo even suggests this as a possibility for Miko when planning for her to be tried with the assumption that a guilty verdict is guaranteed, and the Aurzurites don’t seem to regard the goblins as having any protections under the law. So it seems plausible that they would give fallen paladins a chance to atone and consider their own ability to atone properly as a test of whether or not they should remain.
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2019-01-28, 02:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go
It's 5 AM here and I need to go to bed if I am to wake up at my usual time of 1 PM, so I won't read the whole thread; has anyone else pointed out that it was a decades-long campaign of such attacks and that, as such, if they didn't Fall on the first, oh, fifty-seven times, they likely didn't Fall on time Four Hundred and Redcloak?
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2019-01-28, 02:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go
The idea is that only the ones who actually personally killed goblin children or unarmed goblin civilians, would Fall - those who killed armed goblin soldiers, would not.
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2019-01-28, 02:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go
In reply to The Weirdo: Yeah that’s why I was thinking it seems likely they had a more lenient “atonement=theyre still welcome with the gods=they’re still welcome in the guard” policy for eg species not protected under AC law. Dealing with other Azurites they’d be expected to be subject to the legal system, plus their oaths specify specific responsibility towards the Azurite citizens. Whereas with goblins, warcrimes will result in the gods yoinking all those nice class abilities until you atone, but the paladin hasn’t betrayed their specific responsibilities to anyone nor actually violated Azurite law. So the only accountability in behavior towards goblins etc is to the gods, and if the gods decide that an atonement is good enough to give back their class abilities then there’s no reason to not allow them back.
Last edited by CriticalFailure; 2019-01-28 at 02:31 AM. Reason: Specifying reply
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2019-01-28, 02:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2016
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- The Kingdom of Amber
Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go
Maybe they do the big blue bolt every time, but it only appears to those whom it is affecting? We as omniscient readers saw it, but maybe none of the characters besides Miko saw it in-universe? Maybe only paladins see it? Maybe only plot-relevant characters see it?
Or, maybe if they don't, Miko being a plot relevant character earned her the big blue bolt moreso than regicide and murder did."Stats are today, style is forever"
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2019-01-28, 07:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-01-28, 07:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go
There's rumbling:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html
And in Spoiler Alert, we actually get to see Therkla overhearing the rumbling.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2019-01-28, 09:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Brazil
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Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go
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2019-01-28, 09:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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2019-01-28, 09:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Washington D.C.
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Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go
Because there seems to be confusion on the spell...
Originally Posted by Peelee's Ye Olde SRDeCuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-01-28, 09:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go
In that case, doesn't it stand to reason that the Twelve Gods did not really mind the war crimes their Paladins committed and, thus, did not depower them?
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2019-01-28, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
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2019-01-28, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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2019-01-28, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go
The few LG ones in the pantheon (it's mixed alignment, after all) might have minded about the excesses of the Sapphire Guard's actions, even if they approved of seeking out "those who would threaten the fabric of existence itself".
Thus (since only a few gods "mind about war crimes"), they can follow the standard rules when it comes to depowering a paladin - a Fall, but no "blue bolt".
The "decades long campaign" may have had lots of killing, but only a very few war crimes.Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-01-28 at 09:33 AM.
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2019-01-28, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go
I’m not saying that paladins could just use it as an easy way to not care, because it does require “true repentance” etc.
I just meant that killing civilians not protected or recognized under Azurite law/SG oaths might be considered the kind of infraction that, while still bad and requiring repentance to the gods, is up to the gods to judge and not subject to secular law/expulsion from the SG IF the gods decide that the paladin has truely repented. So it couldn’t be something that was constantly happening and being habdwaved with a spell, but it could be something that happens sporadically with different paladins and is looked at as “they went overboard/they didn’t exercise enough caution/they didn’t detect evil enough and did wrong and so they must repent and the gods will judge their worthiness” rather than “they killed the person they were sworn to obey/an Azurite citizen they were sworn to defend and they must be expelled as per SG protocol and be subject to due process under the AC courts.”
Basically it’s possible that some fall worthy actions don’t nevessarily result in permanent dismissal. That being said I’m not trying to say that a paladin atoning with the idea that they can just use the atonement spell to do it again would be considered truly atoning or actually having a LG alignment.
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2019-01-28, 09:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-01-28, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go
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2019-01-28, 09:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-01-28, 09:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go
Which is why there's a strong theme of "reform the Sapphire Guard" about O-Chul's joining.
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