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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    It's possible that a certain amount of inaction is permissible.
    Again, sure, if the servants of the twelve who call themselves paladins are actually operating under some alternative code of conduct or a different definition of evil, then they can do whatever. But then they're not actually D&D paladins operating in a universe based on objective moral standards, and you can't make appeals to standard D&D mechanics to explain who falls and who doesn't.
    Give directly to the extreme poor.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    Quote Originally Posted by hrožila View Post
    You took my quote, removed the bit that addressed the counterpoint you wanted to make, then made said counterpoint. Huh, OK then. I guess this is my exit cue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Y'know, Lacuna, quoting part of what I said and addressing something I didn't say at all is a bad approach to making me trust your IIRC.

    ...and in fact, I'm going to say that this habit of cutting quotes off in mid-sentence with "..." with actual content elided, is a lot like shouting, "I'm arguing dishonestly here!" Just a thought.
    Weird how often that comes up. I wonder how many different people have to call out Lacuna for arguing in bad faith before he stops doing that. (I don't think it would matter, as he's said before that he wouldn't be convinced by literally everyone on the board disagreeing with him about something; like his hero Miko, he will never "even acknowledge that he could, in fact, be wrong.")

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    My sense is that Miko got the “blue bolt of disapproval” because she killed her defenseless liege lord, the person who was primarily responsible for protecting the Gate, while an army seeking to control the Gate was headed for the city.

    She took an action that was severely non-LG and that was utterly and imminently destructive to the purpose the Sapphire Guard was created for. I can see why the combination of those two things would provoke the personal intervention of the Twelve Gods in the way that an action that was “merely” the former (even if more egregiously so) would not. Gin-Jun’s actions were, a O-Chul pounted out, counterproductive to the security of Azurites, but they were not as immediately and massively opposite to the Sapphire Guard’s defining purpose of defending the Gates as Miko’s were.

    However, I do agree that the prequel books (SOD, HTPGHS, and OTOOPC) show paladins behaving in ways that would, by any reasonable definition of Lawful Good, cause them to fall; and it’s rather convenient for Rich that the black-and-white art means we have no visual demonstration of whether a paladin has fallen.

    (I think there’s a pretty strong indication that Gin-Jun did Fall at some point, because there’s no way a lower-level acolyte could one-hit-kill a paladin.)
    Last edited by LadyEowyn; 2019-01-23 at 10:40 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyEowyn View Post

    (I think there’s a pretty strong indication that Gin-Jun did Fall at some point, because there’s no way a lower-level acolyte could one-hit-kill a paladin.)
    in the hands of an author, any hit can be a critical hit, or a lethal hit, and a complete jerk can be attractive to a good looking lady.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-01-24 at 12:20 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    in the hands of an author, any hit can be a critical hit, or a lethal hit, and a complete jerk can be attractive to a good looking lady.
    And in the hands of a good author, said hit will be believable. I have no problem believing Gin-Jun fell when he struck flesh while attacking O-Chul.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    in the hands of an author, any hit can be a critical hit, or a lethal hit, and a complete jerk can be attractive to a good looking lady.
    Heh, I just realized that Belkar in that scene exhibits all three tenets of The Tao of Steve.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Again, sure, if the servants of the twelve who call themselves paladins are actually operating under some alternative code of conduct or a different definition of evil, then they can do whatever. But then they're not actually D&D paladins operating in a universe based on objective moral standards, and you can't make appeals to standard D&D mechanics to explain who falls and who doesn't.
    The point is that The Giant has a different standard from yours - not that the standard contradicts D&D. After all, alignment interpretation from DM to DM is heavily subjective.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Again, sure, if the servants of the twelve who call themselves paladins are actually operating under some alternative code of conduct or a different definition of evil, then they can do whatever. But then they're not actually D&D paladins operating in a universe based on objective moral standards, and you can't make appeals to standard D&D mechanics to explain who falls and who doesn't.
    They're not D&D Paladins; they are OOTS Paladins. Rich is on record saying that the world doesn't operate under D&D rules, but OOTS rules--which are like D&D rules except when they aren't. I can't pull up the exact quote at the moment, but I believe it is in the Index.

    And yes, I know that saying "D&D rules except when not" is like splitting hairs, because it is basically the same thing as D&D. But even then--and as others have pointed out--D&D can be highly subjective, especially in regards to alignment. If Rich's interpretation of the Paladin Code is different from your own, then that's just how it goes in OOTS world.

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The point is that The Giant has a different standard from yours - not that the standard contradicts D&D. After all, alignment interpretation from DM to DM is heavily subjective.
    Not sure how I missed the post, but I agree with the above.
    Last edited by The Aboleth; 2019-01-24 at 01:17 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    Quote Originally Posted by The Aboleth View Post
    They're not D&D Paladins; they are OOTS Paladins. Rich is on record saying that the world doesn't operate under D&D rules, but OOTS rules--which are like D&D rules except when they aren't. I can't pull up the exact quote at the moment, but I believe it is in the Index.
    This one?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    As far as this thread goes, or any other attempt to align the events of the comic with D&D, my suggestion is to treat the comic as if it is based on "OOTS RPG," a hypothetical game that is exactly like D&D in every way—except for those ways that the comic shows that it isn't. Everything is D&D until proven otherwise. Because that's sort of how I write it; I use the D&D rules when they fit into the story (and I remember them), and break them when they don't. Thus, you can still extrapolate D&D stats of the characters unless I show something that simply defies the game as written—like Roy casting a fireball. And you can still make predictions about what might happen in the future as if it were all going to unfold according to the D&D rules, as long as you understand that hey, maybe I might fudge that one. And then don't complain if I do.
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  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: What are the criteria for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Gods"?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Only when all the pantheon's gods, Evil and Good alike, are angry, do they break out the blue bolts.
    I think that is the key. Miko's action drew the anger of all 12 gods simultaneously, and the display is the manifestation of an extremely rare instant consensus of the Twelve. That the Twelve could have had 12 entirely reasons for their conclusion is not important. And, in this situation, I think the Evil gods all had a positive conviction of some kind against Miko, not a generic "I vote against paladins because I am evil."

    Falling is possible for a Paladin by pissing off one single god you happen to be dedicated to.* Such happens but it is far from common. Some Paladins fall by pissing off a few Good gods. It is a real "accomplishment" to get instantly get more than 11 against you.

    * It is not necessarily that Falls happen more often if you are dedicated to a single god as a Paladin. A more focused philosophy also provides more concrete mitigating circumstances. "He failed at Ideal A because he was trying too hard to achieve Ideal B, both of which are important to Me."

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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Yes, thank you! That's the quote.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    On the topic of falling, is it guaranteed that someone who “slipped up” and fell wouldn’t be allowed to atone and resume/rejoin the guard? Hinjo even suggests this as a possibility for Miko when planning for her to be tried with the assumption that a guilty verdict is guaranteed, and the Aurzurites don’t seem to regard the goblins as having any protections under the law. So it seems plausible that they would give fallen paladins a chance to atone and consider their own ability to atone properly as a test of whether or not they should remain.

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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    It's 5 AM here and I need to go to bed if I am to wake up at my usual time of 1 PM, so I won't read the whole thread; has anyone else pointed out that it was a decades-long campaign of such attacks and that, as such, if they didn't Fall on the first, oh, fifty-seven times, they likely didn't Fall on time Four Hundred and Redcloak?
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    The idea is that only the ones who actually personally killed goblin children or unarmed goblin civilians, would Fall - those who killed armed goblin soldiers, would not.
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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    In reply to The Weirdo: Yeah that’s why I was thinking it seems likely they had a more lenient “atonement=theyre still welcome with the gods=they’re still welcome in the guard” policy for eg species not protected under AC law. Dealing with other Azurites they’d be expected to be subject to the legal system, plus their oaths specify specific responsibility towards the Azurite citizens. Whereas with goblins, warcrimes will result in the gods yoinking all those nice class abilities until you atone, but the paladin hasn’t betrayed their specific responsibilities to anyone nor actually violated Azurite law. So the only accountability in behavior towards goblins etc is to the gods, and if the gods decide that an atonement is good enough to give back their class abilities then there’s no reason to not allow them back.
    Last edited by CriticalFailure; 2019-01-28 at 02:31 AM. Reason: Specifying reply

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    Maybe they do the big blue bolt every time, but it only appears to those whom it is affecting? We as omniscient readers saw it, but maybe none of the characters besides Miko saw it in-universe? Maybe only paladins see it? Maybe only plot-relevant characters see it?

    Or, maybe if they don't, Miko being a plot relevant character earned her the big blue bolt moreso than regicide and murder did.
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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Maybe they do the big blue bolt every time, but it only appears to those whom it is affecting? We as omniscient readers saw it, but maybe none of the characters besides Miko saw it in-universe? Maybe only paladins see it? Maybe only plot-relevant characters see it?
    Short version? No.

    Long version?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Suffice to say that the Twelve Gods are not beholden to put on the same visual display they did for Miko for every paladin who transgresses, and that all transgressions are not created equal. It is possible that some of the paladins who participated in the attack crossed the line. It is also possible that most did not. A paladin who slips up in the execution of their god-given orders does not warrant the same level of personal attention by the gods as one who executes the legal ruler of their nation on a glorified hunch. Think of Miko's Fall as being the equivalent of the CEO of your multinational company showing up in your cubicle to fire you, because you screwed up THAT much.
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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    There's rumbling:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html

    And in Spoiler Alert, we actually get to see Therkla overhearing the rumbling.
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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    In reply to The Weirdo: Yeah that’s why I was thinking it seems likely they had a more lenient “atonement=theyre still welcome with the gods=they’re still welcome in the guard” policy for eg species not protected under AC law. Dealing with other Azurites they’d be expected to be subject to the legal system, plus their oaths specify specific responsibility towards the Azurite citizens. Whereas with goblins, warcrimes will result in the gods yoinking all those nice class abilities until you atone, but the paladin hasn’t betrayed their specific responsibilities to anyone nor actually violated Azurite law. So the only accountability in behavior towards goblins etc is to the gods, and if the gods decide that an atonement is good enough to give back their class abilities then there’s no reason to not allow them back.
    So an atinement spell is basically a get-out-of-jail-free card?

    And, throughout their campaign, the paladins decided to simply use it instead of, well, not committing atrocities?

    And the gods accepted that outcome?
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
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    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    So an atinement spell is basically a get-out-of-jail-free card?

    And, throughout their campaign, the paladins decided to simply use it instead of, well, not committing atrocities?

    And the gods accepted that outcome?
    In theory, an Atonement spell requires true repentance.
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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    Because there seems to be confusion on the spell...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee's Ye Olde SRDe
    Atonement
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    This spell removes the burden of evil acts or misdeeds from the subject. The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds. Many casters first assign a subject of this sort a quest (see geas/quest) or similar penance to determine whether the creature is truly contrite before casting the atonement spell on its behalf
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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    In that case, doesn't it stand to reason that the Twelve Gods did not really mind the war crimes their Paladins committed and, thus, did not depower them?
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    In that case, doesn't it stand to reason that the Twelve Gods did not really mind the war crimes their Paladins committed and, thus, did not depower them?
    No, it does not. What part of "rpentance" are you not getting?

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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    No, it does not. What part of "rpentance" are you not getting?
    The part where it was a decades-long campaign of war crimes, which means these Paladins did it repeatedly.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    The few LG ones in the pantheon (it's mixed alignment, after all) might have minded about the excesses of the Sapphire Guard's actions, even if they approved of seeking out "those who would threaten the fabric of existence itself".

    Thus (since only a few gods "mind about war crimes"), they can follow the standard rules when it comes to depowering a paladin - a Fall, but no "blue bolt".

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    The part where it was a decades-long campaign of war crimes, which means these Paladins did it repeatedly.
    The "decades long campaign" may have had lots of killing, but only a very few war crimes.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-01-28 at 09:33 AM.
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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    I’m not saying that paladins could just use it as an easy way to not care, because it does require “true repentance” etc.

    I just meant that killing civilians not protected or recognized under Azurite law/SG oaths might be considered the kind of infraction that, while still bad and requiring repentance to the gods, is up to the gods to judge and not subject to secular law/expulsion from the SG IF the gods decide that the paladin has truely repented. So it couldn’t be something that was constantly happening and being habdwaved with a spell, but it could be something that happens sporadically with different paladins and is looked at as “they went overboard/they didn’t exercise enough caution/they didn’t detect evil enough and did wrong and so they must repent and the gods will judge their worthiness” rather than “they killed the person they were sworn to obey/an Azurite citizen they were sworn to defend and they must be expelled as per SG protocol and be subject to due process under the AC courts.”

    Basically it’s possible that some fall worthy actions don’t nevessarily result in permanent dismissal. That being said I’m not trying to say that a paladin atoning with the idea that they can just use the atonement spell to do it again would be considered truly atoning or actually having a LG alignment.

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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The "decades long campaign" may have had lots of killing, but only a very few war crimes.
    Theoretically possible, I suppose.

    The campaign is still wrong, criminal and evil, but that's another matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post

    The campaign is still wrong, criminal and evil, but that's another matter.
    Not necessarily. A point is made in Don't Split The Party commentary that the Sapphire Guard, by trying to protect reality from threats to it, are trying to do the right thing - and O-Chul is brought in as the symbol of everything right about the Sapphire Guard.
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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Not necessarily. A point is made in Don't Split The Party commentary that the Sapphire Guard, by trying to protect reality from threats to it, are trying to do the right thing - and O-Chul is brought in as the symbol of everything right about the Sapphire Guard.
    I'm sure the innocent goblins in innocent villages saw it that way...
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: Spoilers: HtPGhS: What's needed for "blue bolt of disapproval" from the Twelve Go

    Which is why there's a strong theme of "reform the Sapphire Guard" about O-Chul's joining.
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