OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

[Jasdoif]

Thor had to wear special gloves to wield Mjolnir all the way back in the original myths, because the handle was made too short for him to wield it safely bare handed.

...and now I'm wondering if wearing Wraithguard to wield Sunder or Keening had the same inspirational basis. Probably not relevant though, even if Belkar were to get an artifact dagger. (I can't even pretend "but they're also of dwarven origin" amounts to much, because Elder Scrolls dwarves are elves....)

[diplomancer]

was I the only one that read "ruminant's boob drippings" as "ruminant poop droppings" and wondered what Blackwing meant by Vaarsuvius trancing without any bulls***?

[Seward]

Might still be a belt available too. We can wait another strip or so and see. IIRC, Thor also had a belt of strength ( megingjarða) which is why Gygax required Belt+Gloves to use the Hammer back in 1st edition. The hammer+belt+gloves really are the cheap mortal "serial # scrubbed off" knockoffs of Thor's gear. I was pretty much expecting this to be the payoff.

As for how it compensates.

the big X is pretty much immune to any magic Durkon can do, and Durkon's hammer is the only weapon that can pierce a lich's DR15 Bludgeon+Magic.

Prior to the upgrade, he probably had a +3 or +4 hammer. Lets say +4. Lets also assume Bull's Strength cast before a fight and 14 base strength for Durkon (above 14 str with point buy, it gets expensive and clerics have other stats to worry about)

Prior to upgrade Durkon does 1d8+4+2(base str)+2(bull str) = about 12.5 damage/swing

Now buffed for a melee fight (quickened divine favor, "Thor's Might" (Righteous might), that
adds 2.5 damage for larger weapon size, 2 damage for strength and 3 for divine favor for
a total damage of about 20/swing.

Assuming Belt Giant Strength+4, Gauntlets of Ogre Power+2 and Hammer of Thunderbolts, Durkon gets an additional +2 to hit and damage over his prior state (+4 to +5 on hammer, +1 for extra strength since the gauntlets stack with belt for this use) but he also gets +8.5 for doing 4d6 instead of 1d8. The +2 to hit cancels the -2 to hit for using a size large weapon, so attack mod is the same.

This means unbuffed he's doing more damage with his hammer (23/swing) than he did fully buffed before. This is nearly a 100% improvement. When fully buffed his hammer goes up a size category to a full 6d6 base damage (+7) in addition to the +5 for the two spells, so he'll do 35/swing. This is a 75% increase in his fully buffed damage.

Which means - the best thing Durkon can probably do to X is to whack him on his skull with his new hammer. Which he wants to do anyway. If he can get a Divine Power off too before he engages he'll have full fighter BAB, which means another +3 to hit (but not an extra attack unless he regains level 16).

Or to put it another way. The hammer is a big F*ing upgrade to Durkon's melee capability. Combined with Roy's Green Fire Undead Slaying Sword, the best thing V can do is cast Haste to stack with Elan's Bardsong and just let them go to town.

[briantmeyer]

There's some penalties and rules weirdness associated with it, but there's nothing stopping a Medium creature from using a Large weapon - the main impact is it takes an extra hand worth to wield it (ie, a one handed weapon has to be used in two hands, so Durkon won't be using a shield any more if the Giant decides to stick to that. There's some items and feats that can mitigate it, which may or may not be specifically called out if the characters spend some time actually talking about the new weapon.) And yeah, I'm throwing in on actual Hammer of Thunderbolts here - it's drawn significantly larger than Durkon's previous hammer, which fits with being a Large weapon, it's got the lightning logo right there, and it was apparently stashed with a pair of gauntlets, which I'm betting are Gauntlets of Ogre Power. There might be a Belt of Giant Strength in there as well - the whole kit needed to use a Hammer of Thunderbolts at full effect.

Edit: Although oddly enough a standard Hammer of Thunderbolts doesn't actually have any either lightning or sonic damage. That may be something Rich adds/modifies so that it is more in line with reader's intuitive understandings of Thor and what a weapon patterned after his very own hammer should do.

I would hope it's house ruled to fell trees. Giant Trees.

+5 hammer doing 4d6 bludgeoning damage, stacked with gauntlets and belt, it does not need lightning bolts, except perhaps as visuals.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Is that Mijolnr itself?

Even if not, what a fantastic one-liner!

[Peelee]

Is that Mijolnr itself?

No .

[ti'esar]

L O K I S U C K S

I can't stop laughing at this.

[Dutch]

Chills - Literal Chills.

[Rockphed]

Unless proven otherwise my headcanon is now that, when this nefarious plot of hers is foiled, Loki will appear to Hel, conjure an illusory "destroy world" button, and proceed to perform this song, complete with dance, in front of it for her.

I demand someone make a gif for this. Also the lyrics need to be modified slightly.

Who? These guys?

Those guys are pretty good. I also like the guys who sing Durin's Hymn.

[Fyraltari]

Those guys are pretty good. I also like the guys who sing Durin's Hymn.

You have taste, Rockphed. "'Till Durin wakes again from sleep..."

[Leftour]

Aaah, the memories....


"This is the true name that the dwarven weaponsmith, Silverblade, gave to the weapon he intended to create for his son. Alas, his son died before the weapon was ever completed, but here it stands complete... forged from the combined magic of the original hammer with the gauntlets of ogre power and a girdle of frost giant strength. Crom Faeyr gifts its users with all the powers of the original Hammer of Thunderbolts, in addition to enormous strength and the ability to kill golems, ettins, and trolls in one blow."

[Seward]

My old memories on this topic is that the GDQ tournament series of modules didn't give you a Hammer of Thunderbolts until the entire Giant series was pretty much done.

I *think* there was one in there somewhere. Although it's possible I'm just remembering a Dwarven Thrower from the Fire Giant module's accountant-dwarf-renegade.

[Seward]

L O K I S U C K S

I can't stop laughing at this.

Yeah, me too.

[Deepbluediver]

It's a magic holy weapon. It's not harming its divinely-ordained user in any event.

The gloves are grey-ish-silvery colored, what if they are actually a metal-mesh to help the wielder better conduct electricity?

Why wasn't Elan in the room for this?!?!

Because the OotS needs him well-rested for the battle ahead, not exhausted from staying up all night writing an epic rock-opera.

Do you people think I'm made of quatloos!?

Yes. I hear that moderator-gig pays a pretty sweet penny, right?

[Mandor]

Alright. I spewed my drink all over my monitor laughing when I realized what the code of letters was for Durkon to open that container.
Well played, Thor.
Well played.

[endur]

Password is awesome.

As is the hiding place for a Hammer of Thunderbolts. And Durkon has gauntlets.

Crom Faeyr from BG2 was also pretty cool.


I'm not sure whether G1-3D1-3 had a hammer of thunderbolts, but it probably did. The dwarf definitely had a hammer of hurling. The hammer wasn't an artifact back in AD&D.

[Snails]

Because the OotS needs his well-rested for the battle ahead, not exhausted from staying up all night writing an epic rock-opera.

Yeah, but someone has to do it. Powering up training montages do not write themselves, and someone has to help Durkon with the costume changes.

[Snails]

I'm not sure whether G1-3D1-3 had a hammer of thunderbolts, but it probably did. The dwarf definitely had a hammer of hurling. The hammer wasn't an artifact back in AD&D.

The serious Munchkin does not bother with the DMG, but goes shopping in Deities & Demigods.

[Xyril]

So, apparently Minrah will be joining the next battle as well! I hadn't thought of that for some reason, maybe because I think someone suggested Durkon would wait to raise her so that he could use all his spells in the battle. But thinking about it now, it makes sense tactically that he'd use one spell to raise her and then they'd gain all of her spells. I suppose it's theoretically possible he'll heal Sigdi so she can help in the battle too, as someone suggested last thread I believe, but I doubt that'll happen.

First, just to preempt some folks: I am aware that OotS doesn't follow any particular set of D&D rules as written, and I am assuming that if Durkon thinks this is how it works and V hasn't corrected him, then this is precisely how spells work in their universe.

That said, for those of you who have played D&D or some variant, would you have let Durkon prepare a resurrection, bring back Minrah, and then let her prepare new spells all in the same morning?

It's never occurred to me to do any rules-lawyering, but reading this strip it occurs to me that I've always just assumed that spell-prep is just something that happens simultaneously for everyone.

If you stab a guy while drunk, immediately and instantly become sober, would you plunge the knife in deeper? V would, which tells me V would have taken the splice even if trance rested.

In your analogy, I am assuming that while you were sober, the guy was completely unstabbed. So basically, you had this choice: You kill a guy who you want dead for whatever reason, or you let him live and face uncertain, probably minimal, consequences due to his continued existence.

If you've already stabbed him, then your choice is basically somewhere on the spectrum of these two extremes: You finish him off, or you stop and try to save him. If you pick the former, then the ongoing risks and consequences are pretty much the same as before. Your alternatives, however, are very different. In the previous scenario, your choice to spare somebody who you (presumably) hadn't previously attacked or provoked. This time, if you let him live, you're choosing to spare somebody who could testify against you for assault, if not seek revenge directly. He might still be actively fighting back, and resolved to kill you regardless of whether or not you decide to stop stabbing him at 90%.

For most people, morality isn't black and white, and situationally invariant. Someone who would never steal for the thrill or for petty gain might steal to avoid starvation. From a cost-benefit analysis alone, V was arguably facing two very different choices. Letting evil outsiders take control of you versus not doing might be an obvious choice. Once that decision is already made, letting them stick around for slightly longer in order to get a bigger benefit doesn't seem so bad. The marginal impact of getting crap on one of your shoes versus keeping both shoes clean isn't the same as the margin impact of getting crap on both shoes versus getting crap on only one.

[Dilvish]

"What time is it, boys and girls?!"

"IT'S VAMPIRE BUTT-KICKING TIME!"

[Fyraltari]

First, just to preempt some folks: I am aware that OotS doesn't follow any particular set of D&D rules as written, and I am assuming that if Durkon thinks this is how it works and V hasn't corrected him, then this is precisely how spells work in their universe.

That said, for those of you who have played D&D or some variant, would you have let Durkon prepare a resurrection, bring back Minrah, and then let her prepare new spells all in the same morning?

It's never occurred to me to do any rules-lawyering, but reading this strip it occurs to me that I've always just assumed that spell-prep is just something that happens simultaneously for everyone.

If it's supposed to happen at dawn, that depends how long dawn is. And how long it takes to prepare spells.

Come to think of it dawn is really hard to see in a mountain.

[Deepbluediver]

That said, for those of you who have played D&D or some variant, would you have let Durkon prepare a resurrection, bring back Minrah, and then let her prepare new spells all in the same morning?

Unless there's a rule to explicitly forbid it, then one of the rules for GMing is "look for a reason to say yes". Actually that rule could apply to a lot of roleplaying.

It's never occurred to me to do any rules-lawyering, but reading this strip it occurs to me that I've always just assumed that spell-prep is just something that happens simultaneously for everyone.

Everyone usually does it in the morning because that's the start of an adventuring day, but in Stickyverse it seems like Clerics are really the only ones who have a specified time. As seen a bit during V's solo-expedition you don't even need to sleep first, you just need to "rest" for 8 hours- then you can prepare spells all over again. Most groups only do it once per day as far as I'm aware because GM's rarely plan sessions where they are timing urgency to do it faster that quickly. Also because there ARE some abilities that are "X per day" and even if you can successfully argue the GM into letting you re-spell, the rest of your party may not be up for another 3-5 encounters.

[Seward]

It's never occurred to me to do any rules-lawyering, but reading this strip it occurs to me that I've always just assumed that spell-prep is just something that happens simultaneously for everyone.

Spell prep happens any time the caster chooses to spend the hour (or 15 min for spont casters) once they've either rested enough (arcane casters) or had their divine event happen (sunrise for Thor followers).

You can't prep (or refresh for spont casters) a slot you used in the last 8 hours. Furthermore arcane casters can't do that 8 hours of rest more than once per 24 hour period (no refreshing with only a 9 hour gap 2-3 times a day).

Beyond that it doesn't matter if you were dead or alive during that 8 hours. Dawn happens, all slots not recently used are unlocked. Spend an hour and you can fill all the slots you care to. If you leave some slots unfilled, you can fill them later (typically 15 minutes unless you left more than 1/4 of your slots open).

So yeah, what Durkon describes is ok as long as they have 2 hours after dawn to work with before they need to get moving.

[Snails]

It's never occurred to me to do any rules-lawyering, but reading this strip it occurs to me that I've always just assumed that spell-prep is just something that happens simultaneously for everyone.

The main problem here is being dead probably should not count as being rested. Durkon and Minrah need 8 hours.

The way we played the game, clerics have a definite point in the day appropriate to their religion for asking for more spells. For non-evil gods, we just handwaved "morning" as good enough. But in order to ask for more spells, you do need to have rested.

Arcane spellcasters need the rest, too. There is no time of day limitation, but you only get fresh new spell slots once per 24 hours.

[Seward]

The main problem here is being dead probably should not count as being rested. Durkon and Minrah need 8 hours.

Divine casters don't need rest.

A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells.

If V was dead, this would be a problem. In the case of Minrah "some event' preventing prayer at the usual time would be "I am dead". I'm sure Thor understands.

Divine casters just need to have not used the slot 8 hours prior to the one time per day their divine clock is reset.

(dawn is typical, but midnight or dusk aren't uncommon either, especially for evil gods. Some good gods might do noon. It's awkward if your divine caster is out of step with the party, so most PCs prefer a dawn timetable. I played a divine-astrologer once though who needed to see the stars to refresh, so his was at midnight and it was rarely a problem)

[Mandor]

First, just to preempt some folks: I am aware that OotS doesn't follow any particular set of D&D rules as written, and I am assuming that if Durkon thinks this is how it works and V hasn't corrected him, then this is precisely how spells work in their universe.

That said, for those of you who have played D&D or some variant, would you have let Durkon prepare a resurrection, bring back Minrah, and then let her prepare new spells all in the same morning?

It's never occurred to me to do any rules-lawyering, but reading this strip it occurs to me that I've always just assumed that spell-prep is just something that happens simultaneously for everyone.

See, they'll put Minrah just a bit west of Durkon when he casts, the res, and it's JUST a couple feet over the line for the Time-Zone change. So she'll get a whole extra hour. Kidding aside, it may be simultaneously for every cleric who Doesn't have the direct and personal attention of their god who wants them to succeed on this very specific undertaking. But at least for the short term, Durkon and Minrah probably have some kind of VIP access.

[Snails]

Thanks for the info!

[Grey Watcher]

Who? These guys?

That's gonna be stuck in my head for a solid week now....

[Xyril]

See, they'll put Minrah just a bit west of Durkon when he casts, the res, and it's JUST a couple feet over the line for the Time-Zone change. So she'll get a whole extra hour. Kidding aside, it may be simultaneously for every cleric who Doesn't have the direct and personal attention of their god who wants them to succeed on this very specific undertaking. But at least for the short term, Durkon and Minrah probably have some kind of VIP access.

If that's how it works, then it's a shame we haven't seen Banjo's apotheosis yet. Elan would probably have lifetime VIP access.

[Peelee]

If that's how it works, then it's a shame we haven't seen Banjo's apotheosis yet. Elan would probably have lifetime VIP access.

Elan doesn't get spells from a god, regardless of Banjo's divine status (or lack thereof).