OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

[GreatWyrmGold]

Is that what I think it is? [EDIT FOR CLARITY: I mean a Hammer of Thunderbolts, not Mjolnir.]

...Does Durkon have the authority to requisition artifact-level hammers?

[Fyraltari]

You'd think the opposite would be true, but apparently genocide is a thing you just get over.

Or maybe instead of running from it, Vaarsuvius punishes herself by subjecting herself to the memory over and over.

Not the same guilt.

Is that what I think it is?

...Does Durkon have the authority to requisition artifact-level hammers?

Thor told him to. Do you think any Cleric of Thor is going to contest that authority?

[Peelee]

Tarquin applied his method using the wrong inputs - for instance, an assumption that the story about himself was the central one. That does not invalidate the method, it merely means that one must be careful when applying it.

Also, Tarquin had Elan working against him, as opposed to the savvy-less people who had been his opponents all his life up til then.

Indeed, though I wouldnt say that Tarquin or Elan can manipulate the narrative. They simply understand the narrative and know how to work within its constraints. Swimming is a hell of a lot easier than parting the water.

Is that what I think it is?

So long as you dont think it's Mjölnir, probably.

[Kish]

Tarquin was wrong though. He didn't manage to control the narrative the way he thought he would and neither can Elan.

Indeed. It could only be an ad hominem if I was making a counterargument; I find the argument too bizarre and incomprehensible to do that, so instead I'm trying to get Zimmer to think about what he's doing here, in the name of pretending Vaarsuvius the Vile is not one of the six main characters of the Order of the Stick webcomic.

[Grey Watcher]

Tarquin applied his method using the wrong inputs - for instance, an assumption that the story about himself was the central one. That does not invalidate the method, it merely means that one must be careful when applying it.

Also, Tarquin had Elan working against him, as opposed to the savvy-less people who had been his opponents all his life up til then.

Except for Julio Soundrel, at least. ("You of all people should be able to see the shape of this.")

I think part of the point is that genre savviness doesn't confer the control that Tarquin thinks it does. It means you have more information to inform your decision making (and in a self-aware parody universe it's crucial information), and that information can include "reasonable assumptions of how a given person might react," but he's still ultimately left with navigating the world like anyone else. Roy is able to subvert the "tragic execution" scene just by being badass and refusing to accept the allegedly inevitable. Yeah, better information is a kind of power, but it's not an insurmountable advantage.

One of Tarquin's biggest flaws is assuming he's more important and more in control than he really is. He assumes that Elan's, Scoundrel's, and Nale's narratives all revolve around him (Elan's got Haley, Roy, Xykon, Vaarsuvius, Durkon, and Belkar all ahead of Tarquin on that front, Tarquin's a B-List villain to Scoundrel, and Nale fights his father tooth and nail (heh) on the point). He assumes he's the leader of the Vector Legion (he might be nominally, but he has to use favors and alliances on the others to get what he wants and they are equally free to use such methods on him).

EDIT: Ninja's by Peelee, who put it a heck of a lot more succinctly.

[gatemansgc]

LOKI SUCKS

best password ever. XDDD

[GreatWyrmGold]

So long as you font think it's Mjölnir, probably.

I shoulda been quicker with that edit.

[gatemansgc]

Is that what I think it is? [EDIT FOR CLARITY: I mean a Hammer of Thunderbolts, not Mjolnir.]

...Does Durkon have the authority to requisition artifact-level hammers?

so i would guess the gloves he's putting on are gauntlets of ogre power. and roy has a belt of giant strength.

...i guess that makes up for him being -2 level then.

[SilverCacaobean]

We heard you like fallacies, so we put fallacies in your fallacies.

Maybe I chose the wrong post to quote. I mean Tarquin was wrong that he can manipulate how the world works which was Zim's original assertion. I don't see what I say has to do with the fallacy you linked.

Unless there's something else I'm missing here?

[Crœsos]

It's not 'biologically necessary' in about the same way sleeping is not 'biologically necessary' for humans - which is to say, you can avoid doing it and it won't (immediately) kill you, but you will suffer for it. The text requirement for recovering spells is '8 hours of rest' - that doesn't have to include sleep/trance, but any sufficiently strenuous activity will disrupt it. V presumably found some activity (reading books of magical theory or similar, probably) that would help with their studies but still counted as 'resting' to do instead of trancing. They have probably since realized that being exhausted and on edge because they decided to do something 'useful' instead of trancing doesn't actually help the Order.

No "demanding mental tasks" are allowed either. We were given an example of the kind of tomes one could read instead of trancing here.

[Grey Watcher]

You'd think the opposite would be true, but apparently genocide is a thing you just get over.

Or maybe instead of running from it, Vaarsuvius punishes herself by subjecting herself to the memory over and over.

I think the nightmares (trance terrors?) are more symptoms of their refusal to acknowledge their failings than necessarily about the content of said failings. Because they're now at least attempting* to deal with their misdeeds consciously, the memories of same aren't trying to pound their way into V's thoughts via dreams anymore.

*The efficacy of their efforts and whether the goal is even possible are not things I am prepared to address at this time.

EDIT: Singular-they and plural-they in the same sentence gets really weird.

[Peelee]

EDIT: Ninja's by Peelee, who put it a heck of a lot more succinctly.

One of the many benefits I've noticed when I dumb things down for myself.

I shoulda been quicker with that edit.

If it makes you feel any better, you're the first one who asked it that I didn't respond with a bet and just straight-up assuming you didn't think of a D&D item.

[AutomatedTeller]

Did V struck you as healthy during that time? Just becaause something isn't necessary for you to stay alive doesn't mean it isn't good for you. Also the reason V avoided trancing was because of the guilt-tripping dreams, which I think they have gotten over by now.

No, what I meant is that it seems to be implied here that V is trancing to be able to learn spells. Clearly, during that arc, V A) did not trance and B) learned spells - specifically, the spells being researched.

That seems like a contradiction, though maybe there isn't one, I dunno.

[Fyraltari]

No, what I meant is that it seems to be implied here that V is trancing to be able to learn spells. Clearly, during that arc, V A) did not trance and B) learned spells - specifically, the spells being researched.

That seems like a contradiction, though maybe there isn't one, I dunno.

V isn't trancing to learn new spells, V is trancing to prepare their spells for the day

[gatemansgc]

No, what I meant is that it seems to be implied here that V is trancing to be able to learn spells. Clearly, during that arc, V A) did not trance and B) learned spells - specifically, the spells being researched.

That seems like a contradiction, though maybe there isn't one, I dunno.

with what happened to V afterwards (familicide still weighs heavy), i don't think they're ever going to go through that again. can't risk that much of a lapse in judgment. so trancing is better.

[Kareasint]

Whether it is the Hammer of Thunderbolts or just a Dwarven Thrower, it is still going to hurt when it makes contact.

If it is the Hammer and those are Gauntlets of Ogre Power, then Durkon will need a belt of Giant Strength. If one is not in the drawer, there is still one available.

But Roy would have to be willing to give it up.

[Peelee]

No, what I meant is that it seems to be implied here that V is trancing to be able to learn spells. Clearly, during that arc, V A) did not trance and B) learned spells - specifically, the spells being researched.

That seems like a contradiction, though maybe there isn't one, I dunno.

V's trance is like a human's sleep. It's just rest, although elves have no downsides for not tracing, IIRC. V doesn't need to trance for his spells, they just need to spend an hour preparing them for the new day. V still wants to trance, though.

[Grey Watcher]

Maybe I chose the wrong post to quote. I mean Tarquin was wrong that he can manipulate how the world works which was Zim's original assertion. I don't see what I say has to do with the fallacy you linked.

Unless there's something else I'm missing here?

I meant the link more in support of what you were saying, in the sense that, even though "sounding like Tarquin is bad" is a bad argument due to the aforementioned ad hominem fallacy, the broader point of "Tarquin's wrong about the amount of power genre-savviness confers" is not disproven by use of said argument.

[Kish]

No, what I meant is that it seems to be implied here that V is trancing to be able to learn spells. Clearly, during that arc, V A) did not trance and B) learned spells - specifically, the spells being researched.

That seems like a contradiction, though maybe there isn't one, I dunno.

Okay, there's some term confusion here. Vaarsuvius needs to spend eight hours doing nothing to prepare spells. Normally this coincides with trance or sleep, if the wizard is able to trance or sleep (Xykon has to just sit around for his sorcerous equivalent, 'cause he's undead). Vaarsuvius previously chose to forcibly keep themself from trancing at all, even though, being a wizard, that meant they had to sit around for eight hours doing nothing (like Xykon, though he has no psychological side effects because his brain's dead already). And Vaarsuvius nearly went mad from trance deprivation, entirely unrelated to their ability to prepare spells, which they were still doing every day.

Researching new spells is unrelated to preparing spells and unrelated to trance.

[SilverCacaobean]

I meant the link more in support of what you were saying, in the sense that, even though "sounding like Tarquin is bad" is a bad argument due to the aforementioned ad hominem fallacy, the broader point of "Tarquin's wrong about the amount of power genre-savviness confers" is not disproven by use of said argument.

I kind of figured it out after I saw your next post. Oh well. Reading comprehension fail on my part I guess

[GreyTraveller]

No "demanding mental tasks" are allowed either. We were given an example of the kind of tomes one could read instead of trancing here.

V and Blackwing also do a lot of word search puzzles.

[Snails]

The beauty of The Giant's villains is that they are usually partially correct in their insight about something important. The more important villains have more important insights.

The villains will always be proven wrong in a way that matters. Always.

Tarquin is right that the OotSverse has Narrative Logic embedded in it. He is wrong about he himself (or any of the characters) being capable of manipulating Narrative Logic to his own ends, at least over the long haul.

Roy will prevail by being a hero for his own good reasons, not by figuring out how a hero is supposed to win a story like this one. Elan will have his happy ending because he will prove willing to pay a great price to do the right thing, not by figuring out how to be the kind of person who has a happy ending. Etc.

Tarquin is wrong.

And, BTW, the other side of the Fallacy Fallacy coin is Unfalsifiable Things Do Not Matter.

But in this case, we have plenty of positive evidence that Tarquin is wrong in some very important ways, even if he is partially right about the metaphysics.

[gatemansgc]

Whether it is the Hammer of Thunderbolts or just a Dwarven Thrower, it is still going to hurt when it makes contact.

If it is the Hammer and those are Gauntlets of Ogre Power, then Durkon will need a belt of Giant Strength. If one is not in the drawer, there is still one available.

But Roy would have to be willing to give it up.

it has a big fat thunderbolt on it and it's sparking lol.

i think roy would be willing to, he doesn't want durkon dying again. he's -2 levels now thanks to hilgya being dumb. the strength of a full strength hammer of thunderbolts would be very helpful.

[hroþila]

with what happened to V afterwards (familicide still weighs heavy), i don't think they're ever going to go through that again. can't risk that much of a lapse in judgment. so trancing is better.

It is important to note that the Soul Splice came with a rejuvenating effect, so V was fresh as a daisy once it was in effect. The responsibility for Familicide falls entirely on their shoulders.

[Fyraltari]

It is important to note that the Soul Splice came with a rejuvenating effect, so V was fresh as a daisy once it was in effect. The responsibility for Familicide falls entirely on their shoulders.

But would V have taken the deal without the trance-deprivation?

[Peelee]

But would V have taken the deal without the trance-deprivation?

Yep. V took the deal because they thought, "I alone can fix it." That was a fundamental aspect of their character before being humbled. The trance deprivation was just a convenient excuse they could tell the self of needed.

[hroþila]

But would V have taken the deal without the trance-deprivation?

There's a good chance that they would have, in my opinion. But regardless, taking the deal didn't necessarily lead to Familicide: the use of that spell wasn't inevitable, it was a separate moral decision.

[Grey Watcher]

The beauty of The Giant's villains is that they are usually partially correct in their insight about something important. The more important villains have more important insights.

The Giant himself laid it out a long time ago:

In fact, often the villains I create will personify an emotional response that I specifically find inappropriate.

[Doug Lampert]

Whether it is the Hammer of Thunderbolts or just a Dwarven Thrower, it is still going to hurt when it makes contact.

If it is the Hammer and those are Gauntlets of Ogre Power, then Durkon will need a belt of Giant Strength. If one is not in the drawer, there is still one available.

But Roy would have to be willing to give it up.

The belt of giant strength gives Roy a +3 to attack and +4 or +5 to damage. He can get +2 to attack and +3 to damage from a second level spell Durkon can cast (same bonus type, so it's one or the other).

So Roy gives up +1 attack and and +1 or 2 damage if he gives up the belt.

The belt of giant strength gives Durkon an extra +5 to attack and +5 or more to damage (increased enhancement on the hammer plus the effects of the belt stack with the gauntlets for purposes of the hammer). Toss in a Thor's Might or Enlarge Person to counter the penalties for using an oversized weapon and Durkon becomes vastly more competent in melee, which is how he usually fights.

If Durkon needs the belt, he gets the belt.

[Fyraltari]

Yep. V took the deal because they thought, "I alone can fix it." That was a fundamental aspect of their character before being humbled. The trance deprivation was just a convenient excuse they could tell the self of needed.

The trance deprivation along with the urgency of the situation allowed V to act on their desire rather than their conscience. V was always in search for power but without any of those, had the Three Fiends shown up on their doorstep they'd have refused their offer. At the very least the trance deprivation prevented V from realizing that the alternate plan was bogus.

There's a good chance that they would have, in my opinion. But regardless, taking the deal didn't necessarily lead to Familicide: the use of that spell wasn't inevitable, it was a separate moral decision.

Yes but both were bad choices and the second was only possible because of the first.