OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

[thereaper]

Hey, my expectations came true! Thor's secret was a magic weapon!

[Nith]

It's funny that the inscription at Thor's statue heralds him as "Champion of killing trees" despite that being a Dwarven misconception.

[Alaska Fan]

"Loki sucks"

Made me spit coffee all over my keyboard.

[Peelee]

The trance deprivation along with the urgency of the situation allowed V to act on their desire rather than their conscience.

Irrelevant. There was an immediate need that had to be addressed. Taking the deal was the only way* to save their family at that point, to the best of my knowledge. V's actions during the splice were all their own for their own benefit, as their spouse pointed out very succinctly.

*i know we had a discussion in this the other day, and hey, I'm open to being wrong. All ears.

It's funny that the inscription at Thor's statue heralds him as "Champion of killing trees" despite that being a Dwarven misconception.

Well it was the dwarves what built the statue.

[Resileaf]

It's funny that the inscription at Thor's statue heralds him as "Champion of killing trees" despite that being a Dwarven misconception.

Yeah, well, Thor's not the one who inscribed that. XD

[Crusher]

Time to power-up!

[Keltest]

Irrelevant. There was an immediate need that had to be addressed. Taking the deal was the only way* to save their family at that point, to the best of my knowledge. V's actions during the splice were all their own for their own benefit, as their spouse pointed out very succinctly.

*i know we had a discussion in this the other day, and hey, I'm open to being wrong. All ears.

I would suggest that the trance deprivation was the primary factor in letting things get that far. Had V not been so exhausted, they would have been much less likely to abandon the fleet or, barring that, to lose to the ABD so badly (ie missing their dimensional anchor). The scenario would have been sufficiently different that the IFCC's deal would not be the only perceived way forward.

[zimmerwald1915]

If Durkon needs the belt, he gets the belt.

Important counterpoint: Roy's belt is green, and goes with his hilt and his name. It would clash horribly with Durkon's design.

[Crusher]

a deadly bee weapon?

not the bees!

[Vendanna]

Important counterpoint: Roy's belt is green, and goes with his hilt and his name. It would clash horribly with Durkon's design.

"the boots were totally powerful, but they were lime green"... <- a grave conundrum you faced indeed...

that's easy to solve with dyes, and also durkon ain't a girl that have problems with fashions. :P

[Kantaki]

LOKI SUCKS

best password ever. XDDD

That's your opinion.
Go Loki!

Vaarsuvius previously chose to forcibly keep themself from trancing at all, even though, being a wizard, that meant they had to sit around for eight hours doing nothing (like Xykon, though he has no psychological side effects because his brain's dead already)..

What brain?
Xykon is literally brainless.
Because he's a s... orcerer.
And a skeleton. That might be prt of it too.

[Kakuro]

Anyone know what Blackwing's comment about V and Boob dripping meant?

[Rollin]

Okay, so I guessed wrong about the forgotten lore of Thor’s secret. The council chamber doesn’t have a skylight.

Yet.

[zimmerwald1915]

Anyone know what Blackwing's comment about V and Boob dripping meant?

That Vaarsuvius didn't require any warm milk to trance. The joke being that Vaarsuivus is less childlike than Elan.

[Peelee]

Important counterpoint: Roy's belt is green, and goes with his hilt and his name. It would clash horribly with Durkon's design.

Maybe the belts are different colors, for different bonuses and Durkon would get a nice blue one to match his future armor?

Okay, so I guessed wrong about the forgotten lore of Thor’s secret. The council chamber doesn’t have a skylight.

Yet.

Hmmmm... That would certainly fit with the "destruction" angle. I like it!

[Fyraltari]

Irrelevant. There was an immediate need that had to be addressed. Taking the deal was the only way* to save their family at that point, to the best of my knowledge.

But not to V's. V thought (probably in part thanks to the trance-dprivation) that there was another way, therefore they made the decision to act wrongly for what they knew were wrong reasons. When someone does something they know is wrong there is an element of "I've gone this far, might as well keep going" to it. V had tacitly acknowledged that their choice was motivated by greed. Had they realized the fiends' deception, they would have fooled themselves into thinking they were doing it for their family, which would have given more weight to Inkyrius' words (enought to sway Vaarsuvius? I don't know).

V's actions during the splice were all their own for their own benefit, as their spouse pointed out very succinctly.

*i know we had a discussion in this the other day, and hey, I'm open to being wrong. All ears.

Of course V is to blame for their own actions, but that doesn't mean that their state of mind wasn't relevant. If someone is violent while being drunk, they're responsible for their behaviour as they are still the same person, but that wouldn't mean they would behave the same way when sober. And knowing this, staying sober is the right thing to do. The same goes for V: they know being trance-deprived lead them to act on their worst self so the right thing to do (well the first right thing to do) is to trance regularly. As a prevention measure if nothing else.

EDIT: By the way, couldn't V have Send to Master Aarindus, themself, without involving Qarr or Durkon?

[DrH]

We already know that Loki's fire burns hotter.

But magma is hotter than fire!




and sword is hotter than magma.

I regret nothing!

[Phantom Thief]

Wait, are they sure they revived Durkon Thundershield and not Murkon Lightninghammer?

[Snails]

There's a good chance that they would have, in my opinion. But regardless, taking the deal didn't necessarily lead to Familicide: the use of that spell wasn't inevitable, it was a separate moral decision.

Precisely. It was a completely unforced choice on V's part to solve a purely theoretical future potential threat to his family by bludgeoning an already defeated foe with horrifying epic arcane power.

V had already decided that "if only I had enough arcane power I could really solve X and Y and Z and ...everything." Well, given overwhelming arcane power in the palm of hir hand, this was hir first demonstration that, not only can magic win combats, but it an completely "solve" problems.

[Peelee]

But not to V's. V thought (probably in part thanks to the trance-dprivation) that there was another way, therefore they made the decision to act wrongly for what they knew were wrong reasons. When someone does something they know is wrong there is an element of "I've gone this far, might as well keep going" to it. V had tacitly acknowledged that their choice was motivated by greed. Had they realized the fiends' deception, they would have fooled themselves into thinking they were doing it for their family, which would have given more weight to Inkyrius' words (enought to sway Vaarsuvius? I don't know).

Of course V is to blame for their own actions, but that doesn't mean that their state of mind wasn't relevant. If someone is violent while being drunk, they're responsible for their behaviour as they are still the same person, but that wouldn't mean they would behave the same way when sober. And knowing this, staying sober is the right thing to do. The same goes for V: they know being trance-deprived lead them to act on their worst self so the right thing to do (well the first right thing to do) is to trance regularly. As a prevention measure if nothing else.

EDIT: By the way, couldn't V have Send to Master Aarindus, themself, without involving Qarr or Durkon?

V's actions while refreshed from the splice (specifically, refusing to give up the splice when asked) tell us that the trance fatigue did not affect their original decision.

And Sending takes 10 minutes to cast. If you want to assume that time is handwaved for the plan, we can assume V didn't have it prepared. V certainly didn't see that option themself, and it is much clearer than the alternate plan not working.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Now that I think of it, No Quarter also works pretty well. Although, I think that joke was made in the print-only content somewhere.

[zimmerwald1915]

Here's a (possibly non-comprehensive) linked list of Order of the Stick weapon upgrades:

Vaarsuvius - Ring of Wizardry
Roy Greenhilt - Starmetal Sword
Elan - Keen Rapier
Haley Starshine - Icy Burst Arch-O-Ry
Elan (again) - Chaos Sabre
Belkar Bitterleaf - Psionic Dagger
Blackwing - Ioun Stone
Roy Greenhilt (again) - Weapons of Legacy Book (booster for Starmetal Sword)
Durkon Thundershield - Hammer of ???

Comprehensive list of the Order's permanent, non-consumable magic items:
Roy Greenhilt
Stared with and not improved: Magical armor, having read a Manual of Gainful Exercise (SSDT)
Gained or improved: Bag of Tricks, heirloom +5 Starmetal Greatsword of Legacy, Belt of Giant Strength, runestone

Belkar Bitterleaf
Started with and not improved: 3 small magical daggers (one +4 and one +2)
Gained or improved: Ring of Jumping +20, bag of holding full of money, +5 Dagger of Collision, +3 Vest of Resistance, Clasp of Protection from Evil

Durkon Allotrope Thundershield
Started with and not improved:
Gained or improved: Amulet of Natural Armor, Hammer of Loki Sucks

Elan
Started with and not improved:
Gained or improved: Boots of Elvenkind, evil sword (SSDT), Belt of Charisma +2, Chaos Sabre

Haley Starshine
Started with and not improved: dyed Boots of Speed
Gained or improved: 8 Bags of Holding, +5 Air Freshener of Pineness, +5 Icy Burst Longbow, magic leather armor

Vaarsuvius and Blackwing
Started with and not improved: Headband of Intellect +4
Gained or improved: Ring of Wizardry III, bracelet with Orange Prism Ioun Stone

[Fyraltari]

V's actions while refreshed from the splice (specifically, refusing to give up the splice when asked) tell us that the trance fatigue did not affect their original decision.

Refusing to back down from a decision and taking that decision are two different things. Of course V did not reneg the Soul splice while refreshed, why would they? They had what they always wanted.

And Sending takes 10 minutes to cast. If you want to assume that time is handwaved for the plan, we can assume V didn't have it prepared. V certainly didn't see that option themself, and it is much clearer than the alternate plan not working.

I didn't know that. That makes sense.

[Kish]

Refusing to back down from a decision and taking that decision are two different things. Of course V did not reneg the Soul splice while refreshed, why would they? They had what they always wanted.

I don't really see much of a distinction between "obviously they wouldn't drop it, they had what they always wanted" and "obviously they'd pick it up to begin with, it was what they always wanted."

Haley Starshine
Started with and not improved:
Gained or improved: 8 Bags of Holding,

That should really be "like eight Bags of Holding."

[Fyraltari]

Hammer of Loki Sucks

Can we all agree to always call it that now, regardless of the explanation that are sure to come next comic?

[Peelee]

Refusing to back down from a decision and taking that decision are two different things. Of course V did not reneg the Soul splice while refreshed, why would they? They had what they always wanted.

If you stab a guy while drunk, immediately and instantly become sober, would you plunge the knife in deeper? V would, which tells me V would have taken the splice even if trance rested.

[Fyraltari]

If you stab a guy while drunk, immediately and instantly become sober, would you plunge the knife in deeper? V would, which tells me V would have taken the splice even if trance rested.

I wouldn't (I hope). But again I see an element of "I've come this far..."

Why do you think the Fiends manufactured a second option for them?

[Peelee]

I wouldn't (I hope). But again I see an element of "I've come this far..."

Why do you think the Fiends manufactured a second option for them?

Because they're Evil. V was already about to take the splice. They just wanted to twist the knife (different knife, of course).

[Doug Lampert]

Hammer of Loki Sucks

Can we all agree to always call it that now, regardless of the explanation that are sure to come next comic?

Agreed. That's now the name.

[CriticalFailure]

Started with and not improved: dyed Boots

I think Haley would say they’ve been improved