Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

[danielxcutter]

Frostbite is only in the Frostburn sourcebook; therefore it appears it's being used as well.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Wait, he's a rogue? How do we know that? I sort of assumed he was a fighter.

As for Crystal, she has levels in something called Assassin.

He explicitly mentions sneak attacking his brother when they're getting ready to attack the fort, and he also sneak attacks a treant.

[danielxcutter]

He explicitly mentions sneak attacking his brother when they're getting ready to attack the fort, and he also sneak attacks a treant.

Goblins have Rogue as a favored class, so it's possible that he's multiclassed into, say, Fighter as well.

[Borris]

It's probably been asked a hundred times before, but why is Tarquin not listed as having the Deflect Arrows and Snatch Arrows feats? He's shown snatching arrows several times over the strips.

[Peelee]

It's probably been asked a hundred times before, but why is Tarquin not listed as having the Deflect Arrows and Snatch Arrows feats? He's shown snatching arrows several times over the strips.

That is not the only way he could have that ability, and there have been many lengthy discussions over this fact.

[D.One]

It's probably been asked a hundred times before, but why is Tarquin not listed as having the Deflect Arrows and Snatch Arrows feats? He's shown snatching arrows several times over the strips.

There's a long discussion on how did Tarquin snatch those arrows, mainly because Deflect Arrows and Snatch Arrows allow for only one deflection/snatch, and Tarquin has snatched two arrows , one with each hand. There's the epic feat Infinite Deflection, that would make him able to use deflection/snatch more than once per round, and there's a magic item called gloves of arrow snatching, that could in thesis do the trick also, but we couldn't conclude which one is being used.

I prefer the feat option, but I can't remember what was the main problem with the Infinite Deflection presented in the discussions.

[zimmerwald1915]

I prefer the feat option, but I can't remember what was the main problem with the Infinite Deflection presented in the discussions.

The problem with Infinite Deflection was that, if used optimally, it would have permitted Tarquin to bat Haley's two arrows aside at the same time with the same hand, rather than catching them with both hands.

Tarquin was not shown wearing gloves, but there are two explanations for this: first, that the art style of the time wouldn't have permitted it (or at least, would only have permitted bulky gloves), and second, that gloves of arrow snaring have flavor text that says they seem to meld with the user's hands and become nearly invisible. The other problem with the gloves is that they are limited in use to twice per day while the feats are not limited in use, and Tarquin was seen snatching more than two arrows over the course of that day.

But it would be very like Tarquin to have both the feat chain (though not necessarily the Epic feat) and a redundant magic item.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I prefer the interpretation that "arrow snatching feat works for every hand/grasping appendage that is free".

To this day, however, I don't think I quite understand why anyone would downgrade from arrow deflection to arrow snatching, given the first one works as often as needed, while the second one removes the ability to use either for the rest of the inter-round period.

(Note that this is not a complaint about Tarquin)

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

To this day, however, I don't think I quite understand why anyone would downgrade from arrow deflection to arrow snatching, given the first one works as often as needed, while the second one removes the ability to use either for the rest of the inter-round period.

Being able to use the snatched arrow as a stabbing weapon?

If this seems like a low rate of return, remember that we're discussing a feat chain intended for Monks.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Being able to use the snatched arrow as an improvised weapon?

If this seems like a low rate of return, remember that we're discussing a feat chain intended for Monks.

I don't want to derail the thread but...

... Don't they do more damage with free hands than with any weapon? I mean, Tarquin would've definitely hurt Belkar more if he had used the axe, I'd imagine.

(Again, I want to insist I am not complaining about Tarquin doing something less-than-optimal; just wondering what the designers were thinking. If the answer is "it's more 'cool' if you catch things than merely deflect them", I'll take that, but I'm wondering if there is anything else I'm missing)

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't want to derail the thread but...

... Don't they do more damage with free hands than with any weapon?

Grey Wolf

Monk fists have bigger base damage dice than most weapons, yes. No, it makes no sense to give them the ability to use found arrows as stabbing weapons. But nobody, except perhaps a younger, less-wise Skip Williams, ever said they were well-designed.

(Again, I want to insist I am not complaining about Tarquin doing something less-than-optimal; just wondering what the designers were thinking. If the answer is "it's more 'cool' if you catch things than merely deflect them", I'll take that, but I'm wondering if there is anything else I'm missing)

Yeah, this is probably the real explanation.

[Borris]

"Thrown weapons can immediately be thrown back at the original attacker (even though it isn’t your turn)..."

That's how Snatch Arrows gets better than Deflect Arrows. Ironically doesn't work with arrows.

[danielxcutter]

"Thrown weapons can immediately be thrown back at the original attacker (even though it isn’t your turn)..."

That's how Snatch Arrows gets better than Deflect Arrows. Ironically doesn't work with arrows.

There's also Return Shot for that, which does work with arrows.

[Chronos]

Quoth zimmerwald1915:

The problem with Infinite Deflection was that, if used optimally, it would have permitted Tarquin to bat Haley's two arrows aside at the same time with the same hand, rather than catching them with both hands.

But no option would have obligated him to catch the arrows (and thus fall off the airship). The fact that he did so can only be called a mistake on his part. And the fact that he made that mistake doesn't tell us anything about what gives him the capability, and so we're right back to whatever best fits the rest of the evidence.

[Peelee]

But no option would have obligated him to catch the arrows (and thus fall off the airship). The fact that he did so can only be called a mistake on his part.

Counterpoint: Tarquin could have reasoned that, at such a climactic moment, Haley's Icy Burst bow could trigger a crit and he could get frozen, fall of the airship anyway, and potentially die, instead of just being injured, so catching the arrows was the optimal choice.

The world runs on drama, Tarquin knows it, and as silly as it sounds it's not exactly a bad theory. It also adds zero information.

[Emanick]

But no option would have obligated him to catch the arrows (and thus fall off the airship). The fact that he did so can only be called a mistake on his part. And the fact that he made that mistake doesn't tell us anything about what gives him the capability, and so we're right back to whatever best fits the rest of the evidence.

It was probably an automatic decision rather than a conscious one. Realistically, the brain can't do much thinking in the time between it sees arrows speeding towards it and when they arrive, so I don't think we need to assume that Tarquin made a conscious decision to catch the arrows. He probably just acted more or less on autopilot.

[Resileaf]

Reflexes are indeed a thing.

[GrayGriffin]

I mean, most of the time when people are firing arrows at you you aren't going to be hanging off an airship, so I can see his first reflex response to "fired two arrows at me" to be "catch both of those arrows," especially since that's the cooler visual anyways.

[Mightymosy]

Monk fists have bigger base damage dice than most weapons, yes. No, it makes no sense to give them the ability to use found arrows as stabbing weapons. But nobody, except perhaps a younger, less-wise Skip Williams, ever said they were well-designed.


Yeah, this is probably the real explanation.

And honestly, it works. (the explanation. it being cooler)

[dps]

It was probably an automatic decision rather than a conscious one. Realistically, the brain can't do much thinking in the time between it sees arrows speeding towards it and when they arrive, so I don't think we need to assume that Tarquin made a conscious decision to catch the arrows. He probably just acted more or less on autopilot.

I totally agree, but of course, this doesn't help at all in figuring out how he did it.

[Chronos]

OK, so that's a reason why he made the mistake. And yeah, it's probably a reasonable mistake to make. My point is, we can't say "It can't have have been <X>, because that wouldn't have obligated him to catch the arrows", because nothing else would have obligated that, either.

[D.One]

The problem with Infinite Deflection was that, if used optimally, it would have permitted Tarquin to bat Haley's two arrows aside at the same time with the same hand, rather than catching them with both hands.

I've tthought that , but then I've read this:

You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat. Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flatfooted. [...]

When using the Deflect Arrows feat you may catch the weapon instead of just deflecting it. Thrown weapons can immediately be thrown back at the original attacker (even though it isn’t your turn) or kept for later use.

You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat.

The character may perform any number of deflections each round, as the Deflect Arrows feat.

The way I read it (and I may be reading it wrong, but that's how I undersood it), both Deflect Arrows and Snatch Arrows require explicitly the user to have a hand free to perform the feat (and a hand holding an arrow isn't free anymore), Infinite Deflection brings the "as the Deflect Arrows feat", which makes me think it's subject to the same rules (aside number of deflections) as its "parent feat" (one must have a hand free to perform the deflections), and, since Snatch Arrows allows to catch the weapon instead of deflecting "when using Deflect Arrows", that would mean that someone with both Snatch Arrows and Infinite Deflection could catch any number of arrows, limited, of course, to one's number of free hands. This last limitation wouldn't be a problem if the user just deflected the arrow, since the hand wouldn't get full with just deflection.

As for why Tarquin snatched instead of just deflecting, I agree with everyone who said it was a mistake due to a reflex act and habit (most of the time during comic we've seem him snatching, not deflecting.

[Ephemera]

I know that RAW has nothing to say about this, so it’s not relevant...but how silly is it that you can throw knives back at the target for free (and thus presumably unlimited times per round if you have infinite deflection, if we’re assuming that infinite deflection applies to snatch arrows), but can’t drop an arrow and catch a new one?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Welcome to the world of overly pedantic rules interpretation.

[Aquillion]

I know that RAW has nothing to say about this, so it’s not relevant...but how silly is it that you can throw knives back at the target for free (and thus presumably unlimited times per round if you have infinite deflection, if we’re assuming that infinite deflection applies to snatch arrows), but can’t drop an arrow and catch a new one?

Can't you just use it as an improvised throwing weapon? Granted, the relevant text for thrown weapons is a bit unclear in terms of how it interacts with Snatch Arrows (it defines a narrow list of thrown weapons, but also notes that anything can be thrown.)

[D.One]

Can't you just use it as an improvised throwing weapon? Granted, the relevant text for thrown weapons is a bit unclear in terms of how it interacts with Snatch Arrows (it defines a narrow list of thrown weapons, but also notes that anything can be thrown.)

I'd usually assume that arrows can indeed be thrown back as improvised thrown weapons. That said, if we suppose Tarquin had Deflect Arrows-Snatch Arrows-Infinite Deflection, the "why he didn't drop one arrow or just deflected them" is best explained by a mistake due to a split second decision.

OTOH:

Behold Dios Exma Chinnegan, Ranger 11/Fighter 20 with DEX 25, Deflect Arrow, Snatch Arrows, Infinite Deflection and Distant Shot who decimates armies who dare to throw volleys of arrows at him...

[Ephemera]

Welcome to the world of overly pedantic rules interpretation.

This should have been our thread title.

Semi-more seriously, I’m not sure how I feel about “split second bad decision” or “reflex” as explanations. If you want to go all real-world on it, we’re talking about someone who has good enough reflexes to catch arrows and deflect infinite ones so I’m not sure normal split second reasoning applies. Or in game terms, I think generally we’ve seen that the characters get to make decisions (and talk) at tabletop game pace, so RAW aside I think we have to go with “bad decision” or “readied action (bad decision redux)” rather than reflex.

None of which is at all helpful—as noted he clearly made the decision and we probably will never know why. Heck, maybe he judged that he wasn’t going to be able to win and decided to exit the battle in the most dramatic/ironic/funniest method he could come up with. Or maybe he wears cursed gloves if arrow snatching that require him to always catch arrows or something more esoteric and equally unproveable...

[b_jonas]

You could ask the same question about #858. Why did Tarquin catch the arrow with the smokestick there, instead of just deflecting it?

"Thrown weapons can immediately be thrown back at the original attacker (even though it isn’t your turn)..."

I'm imagining two jugglers with Snatch Arrows and Infinite Deflection feats throwing a knife back at each other in an infinite loop within the same turn. It would make an interesting circus act.

[Resileaf]

You could ask the same question about #858. Why did Tarquin catch the arrow with the smokestick there, instead of just deflecting it?

I'm imagining two jugglers with Snatch Arrows and Infinite Deflection feats throwing a knife back at each other in an infinite loop within the same turn. It would make an interesting circus act.

If I was a GM and this somehow happened... I'd decree that the universe explodes as the participants' speed breaks the fabric of time and space.

[Reboot]

I know that RAW has nothing to say about this, so it’s not relevant...but how silly is it that you can throw knives back at the target for free (and thus presumably unlimited times per round if you have infinite deflection, if we’re assuming that infinite deflection applies to snatch arrows), but can’t drop an arrow and catch a new one?

I would certainly say that Infinite Deflection and Snatch Arrows are on separate feat chains, entirely distinct upgrades of Deflect Arrows, and that "Infinite Snatching" would require a separate feat again...