Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

[Aveline]

You could ask the same question about #858. Why did Tarquin catch the arrow with the smokestick there, instead of just deflecting it?

I'm imagining two jugglers with Snatch Arrows and Infinite Deflection feats throwing a knife back at each other in an infinite loop within the same turn. It would make an interesting circus act.

This happens in high-level Super Smash Bros. Melee tournament play, when Fox/Falco players shield-deflect each others' volleys in a sort of reactor until someone's shield breaks.

[Ephemera]

If I was a GM and this somehow happened... I'd decree that the universe explodes as the participants' speed breaks the fabric of time and space.

This thread is going to explode if we go any further down the path of re-opening this discussion, so I’ll butt out for now...

[El Dorado]

I like to think that Tarquin sneaked in gloves of missile snaring from 2nd edition. They don’t have a per day cap.

[D.One]

I like to think that Tarquin sneaked in gloves of missile snaring from 2nd edition. They don’t have a per day cap.

Well, that wouldn't be his sole addition from previous editions...

[Ephemera]

I can’t help myself...did we ever consider whether he could own multiple pairs of gloves of missle snaring that he swaps out?

[zimmerwald1915]

I can’t help myself...did we ever consider whether he could own multiple pairs of gloves of missle snaring that he swaps out?

We have. It works, but it's also silly, and there's no indication from the art that Tarquin is even wearing gloves, much less swapping them out.

[b_jonas]

there's no indication from the art that Tarquin is even wearing gloves

That's what I thought too in previous threads. But it turns out that the description of Gloves of Arrow Snaring in the rules says “Once snugly worn, these gloves seem to meld with the hands, becoming almost invisible”, so it would make sense if they weren't drawn. I just prefer Infinite Deflection over the gloves because it makes a better thread title.

[zimmerwald1915]

That's what I thought too in previous threads. But it turns out that the description of Gloves of Arrow Snaring in the rules says “Once snugly worn, these gloves seem to meld with the hands, becoming almost invisible”, so it would make sense if they weren't drawn. I just prefer Infinite Deflection over the gloves because it makes a better thread title.

I know, I pointed it out. But you'd think that if he was swapping gloves out after every second arrow-snatch, as opposed to wearing a single pair of gloves all the time, there'd be some indication of that.

[PirateMonk]

What's the specific evidence for Lien being five years older than Hinjo? It seems hard to reconcile with

Spoiler: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished

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Hinjo being a teenager in "How the Paladin Got His Scar", Lien being a minor in "Pier Pressure", and the former happening before the latter.

Of course, Burlew says in the Introduction that the timeline doesn't necessarily make sense, but it's potentially of interest whether the most plausible rationalization of it involves Hinjo being an unusually tall and mature twelve-year-old in HtPGHS and PP happening immediately afterward, or the information about their relative ages being incorrect, or something else.

[Rogar Demonblud]

She explicitly states so in a bonus strip in DSTP.

[NoHaxJustPi]

Also, i can’t explain Hinjo being unusually tall for a 12 year old, but he’d probably receive much more education on how to be mature, being (not certain at the time, but likely) nobility

[Peelee]

Also, i can’t explain Hinjo being unusually tall for a 12 year old, but he’d probably receive much more education on how to be mature, being (not certain at the time, but likely) nobility

Spoiler: HtPGhS

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Not certain? They don't make commemorative plates out of just anyone! Well, unless it's a bad plate.

[Aveline]

Also, i can’t explain Hinjo being unusually tall for a 12 year old, but he’d probably receive much more education on how to be mature, being (not certain at the time, but likely) nobility

He may have a case of chronic Tallness, like me. (I was six feet by the end of middle school.)

Edit: What I'm saying is that it isn't unusual for a child to be very tall.

[Peelee]

He may have a case of chronic Tallness, like me. (I was six feet by the end of middle school.)

I feel bad for the children with intermittent tallness.

[Aveline]

Blessed be the child with intermittent Tallness, for it is not their whole life through that they shall hit their head on things.

[understatement]

Considering that the HPoT uses Thor's Lightning against Greg, a vampire, and V later says that vampires are resistant to electricity, I was wondering why the former would use lightning against a vampire, and if there was any other spell she could have used without harming all the other clerics.

I'm guessing Thor's Lightning which has been designed as a 3rd-level spell has a divine component to it, like Loki/Hilgya's flame strike?

The SRD is down for me

[Ephemera]

She explicitly states so in a bonus strip in DSTP.

Do we know for sure what “minor” means in Azure City? Technically you could probably work out the math so that Hinjo could have been 13 and change, since “5 years older” in common parlance could mean as little as 4.5 years, even assuming that “minor” means “below 18.” I don’t recall if the reference was more specific about Lien’s age.

13 would have been considered nearly a man (or fully one even) in a lot of medieval-ish societies historically. Which has precisely nothing to do with physical maturity in OOTS, of course...

[NoHaxJustPi]

Considering that the HPoT uses Thor's Lightning against Greg, a vampire, and V later says that vampires are resistant to electricity, I was wondering why the former would use lightning against a vampire, and if there was any other spell she could have used without harming all the other clerics.

I'm guessing Thor's Lightning which has been designed as a 3rd-level spell has a divine component to it, like Loki/Hilgya's flame strike?

The SRD is down for me

Well, vampires have resistance 10 to electricity, so it could be like Flame Strike, or it could be the only offensive spell the HPoT had at the time.
EDIT: It’s shown damaging Malack, so it definitely has enough offensive capability to hurt a vampire.

[Lacuna Caster]

Of course, Burlew says in the Introduction that the timeline doesn't necessarily make sense...

Wait, what?

[PirateMonk]

Wait, what?

Rereading, it's a bit more ambiguous than that:

I haven't assigned specific years to any of these events (because I always end up accidentally contradicting myself) but there are clues that should let you piece together how long ago each one happened, if you're clever.

So, possibly, leaving it in the form of vague clues instead of actual dates allows for some wiggle room of the "Hinjo had an early growth spurt" variety to avoid outright contradictions.

Do we know for sure what “minor” means in Azure City? Technically you could probably work out the math so that Hinjo could have been 13 and change, since “5 years older” in common parlance could mean as little as 4.5 years, even assuming that “minor” means “below 18.” I don’t recall if the reference was more specific about Lien’s age.

13 would have been considered nearly a man (or fully one even) in a lot of medieval-ish societies historically. Which has precisely nothing to do with physical maturity in OOTS, of course...

Hinjo says in HtPGHS that Lord Shojo is expected to make him heir on his eighteenth birthday, so that is most likely the Azurite age of majority. Of course, it's possible they have different thresholds for different purposes, and the "can become a paladin without her parents' consent" age is different from the "can inherit lordship of the city" age.

* * *

Also, O-chul implies that he's 42 in HtPGHS (pg 126 of GDGU/ pg 62 of Kickstarter PDF), so his minimum age should probably be updated accordingly.

[NoHaxJustPi]

Since Hinjo was about 13, and he’s now 24, that places O-Chul at about 53.

[ti'esar]

I've said this before, but it's really weird to me that people are so determined to go with the "Hinjo was a really tall, mature 12 year old" interpretation instead of just disregarding, IIRC, a single line that causes the timeline error.

[hamishspence]

I've said this before, but it's really weird to me that people are so determined to go with the "Hinjo was a really tall, mature 12 year old" interpretation instead of just disregarding, IIRC, a single line that causes the timeline error.

Indeed. It wouldn't be the only example of a bonus strip (the Lien one in Don't Split the Party) having problematic date references. The bonus strip of Shojo talking about putting the Mark on Belkar, is also dated wrong - 8 months ago when it should be 10 months or so - which The Giant later mentioned:

4.) The chart the deva shows should not be taken too literally. I didn't necessarily consult all possible references on how much time had passed when I drew it. I fudged it.

5.) Likewise, the "Eight months ago..." box in the bonus strip in Don't Split the Party is absolutely wrong; it should be more like ten months and some change. I think. I may still be getting it wrong.

Based on this quote about How the Paladin Got His Scar:

Hinjo is supposed to be around 15-16

and the fact that one of the paladins in Pier Pressure looks exactly like one of the paladins in How the Paladin Got His Scar, but older - more grey streaks in her hair -

I think it's safe to say that the Don't Split The Party bonus strip has been retconned - Lien is younger than Hinjo, rather than 5 years older.

Given that in Pier Pressure, Lien appears to be engaged in "illicit" smoking (with the excuse "I'm just holding it for a friend") she's probably younger than the "minimum smoking age" (typically 16 to 18) and, since this is quite some time after How The Paladin Got His Scar, what with the noticeably aged paladin, Hinjo is probably now adult at this point.



If you replace DStP's Lien line about Hinjo: "silver spoon aristocrat five years my junior" with "silver spoon aristocrat five years my elder" it actually falls into place rather neatly.

[D.One]

I must say, for the purpose of this thread, I mostly care about age when it implies in age categories. That said, we have contradictory information both from official sources, so we can make up our minds with what makes more sense.

[hroþila]

I've said this before, but it's really weird to me that people are so determined to go with the "Hinjo was a really tall, mature 12 year old" interpretation instead of just disregarding, IIRC, a single line that causes the timeline error.

It is not weird to make assumptions that try to reconcile all the published text (even if the conclusion is a bit wonky) instead of assuming there has to be a mistake. It's what we've been told to do, including by the author himself.

[hamishspence]

Also, O-chul implies that he's 42 in HtPGHS (pg 126 of GDGU/ pg 62 of Kickstarter PDF), so his minimum age should probably be updated accordingly.

The tricky part is calibrating O-Chul's age using Hinjo. We know he's 15 to 16 in HtPGHS and 23 in War & XPs - but there's quite a bit of flexibility.

Is he a young 15 (only just turned 15) or an old 16 (nearly 17?)
Is he in War & XPs a young 23 (just celebrated his birthday) or an old 23, almost 24?)

If he's a young 15 and an old 23 - then almost 9 years have gone by between the two books - making O-Chul around 51 in War & XPs (plus or minus a few months).

If he's an old 16 and a young 23, then only just over 6 years have gone by between the two books - making O-Chul around 48 in War & XPs (plus or minus a few months).

[knag]

The tricky part is calibrating O-Chul's age using Hinjo. We know he's 15 to 16 in HtPGHS and 23 in War & XPs - but there's quite a bit of flexibility.

Is he a young 15 (only just turned 15) or an old 16 (nearly 17?)
Is he in War & XPs a young 23 (just celebrated his birthday) or an old 23, almost 24?)

If he's a young 15 and an old 23 - then almost 9 years have gone by between the two books - making O-Chul around 51 in War & XPs (plus or minus a few months).

If he's an old 16 and a young 23, then only just over 6 years have gone by between the two books - making O-Chul around 48 in War & XPs (plus or minus a few months).

Why does O-Chul's age need to be anchored to Hinjo's?

O-Chul was 12 when he was adopted. HtPGHS is 30 years later, making him 42. HtPGHS is 22 years after the Sapphire Guard raid on the goblin village in SoD. That raid happened 34 years before DCF, which takes place in 1183. So the raid was in 1149, and HtPGHS is in 1171. O-Chul was born in 1129, making him currently 54 or 55 depending on when his birthday is, but likely 55 because 1184 is nearly over, as we know from Belkar's death prophesy and many other timeline details. He was certainly 54 in WXP.

[NoHaxJustPi]

Wouldn’t durkon be 13th level? Before being raised twice, he was level 15, having created a symbol of death, which is 8th level.

[hamishspence]

Why does O-Chul's age need to be anchored to Hinjo's?

O-Chul was 12 when he was adopted. HtPGHS is 30 years later, making him 42. HtPGHS is 22 years after the Sapphire Guard raid on the goblin village in SoD. That raid happened 34 years before DCF, which takes place in 1183. So the raid was in 1149, and HtPGHS is in 1171. O-Chul was born in 1129, making him currently 54 or 55 depending on when his birthday is, but likely 55 because 1184 is nearly over, as we know from Belkar's death prophesy and many other timeline details. He was certainly 54 in WXP.

The problem is - we know Hinjo is 23 in War & XPs (the character page). And we know Hinjo is about 15 or 16 in HtPGHS (Word of Giant).

Thus, we can deduce that HtPGHS must take place 7 or 8 years before War & XPs (9 at the absolute most - which requires Hinjo to have only just turned 15 in HtPGHS, and be almost 24 at the start of War & XPs).

So it can't be any earlier than 1175.

The gap between books being 13 years instead of 9, makes Hinjo far too young, contradicting The Giant's statement. He ends up being around 11 or so, counting backward from War & XPs.

The "22 years" figure isn't the time since the raid - it's the time since The Sapphire Guard discovered the Crimson Mantle was important.
I would speculate that around 4 years or so after the raid on Redcloak's village, the Sapphire Guard discovered the Crimson Mantle was an important artifact, not just a badge of office, and Gin-Jun's search began then, and it's that date he refers to when he says he's been searching for 22 years.

[D.One]

Wouldn’t durkon be 13th level? Before being raised twice, he was level 15, having created a symbol of death, which is 8th level.

Yeah, I agree level 13+ would be the most correct estimate.