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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    When is Durkon’s level going to be updated? Vampire Durkon cast Symbol of Death, meaning he was level 15 or higher, and with the level reduction, puts him at 13+

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by NoHaxJustPi View Post
    When is Durkon’s level going to be updated? Vampire Durkon cast Symbol of Death, meaning he was level 15 or higher, and with the level reduction, puts him at 13+
    In a few months' time, I'd imagine. That's the usual timeframe for revisions to the OP. Why, are you in a hurry or something?

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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    In a few months' time, I'd imagine. That's the usual timeframe for revisions to the OP. Why, are you in a hurry or something?

    Grey Wolf
    Thing is, it was already known at the time of the last update that he was 13+, not 12+ - Durkula's entry even says 15...! - it's an error, not a change since the update.

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The problem is - we know Hinjo is 23 in War & XPs (the character page). And we know Hinjo is about 15 or 16 in HtPGHS (Word of Giant).

    Thus, we can deduce that HtPGHS must take place 7 or 8 years before War & XPs (9 at the absolute most - which requires Hinjo to have only just turned 15 in HtPGHS, and be almost 24 at the start of War & XPs).

    So it can't be any earlier than 1175.

    The gap between books being 13 years instead of 9, makes Hinjo far too young, contradicting The Giant's statement. He ends up being around 11 or so, counting backward from War & XPs.

    The "22 years" figure isn't the time since the raid - it's the time since The Sapphire Guard discovered the Crimson Mantle was important.
    I would speculate that around 4 years or so after the raid on Redcloak's village, the Sapphire Guard discovered the Crimson Mantle was an important artifact, not just a badge of office, and Gin-Jun's search began then, and it's that date he refers to when he says he's been searching for 22 years.
    That's a pretty convincing retcon, but re-reading HtPGHS and how it cuts to the scene from SoD right after the "22 years" remark makes it pretty clear that Gin Jun is referring to that episode as occurring 22 years ago. My feeling is that the Giant published canon material which is not internally consistent from a timeline point of view. I believe has has made statements to the effect that it doesn't all work out and that he wasn't thinking about this stuff earlier on.

    I'm on the fence about whether I should keep both dates, the "22 years" date, or your retcon in the wiki timeline...

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMonk View Post
    I'm not saying we need to pin down a specific age for O-Chul, just that the currently listed figure of 29+ is way less precise than it could be, to the point of being potentially misleading. 42+, 48+, 48-51, and 48-55 would all be fine.
    Agreed. 48-55 encompasses the full range of the ambiguity.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Given The Giant's "15 to 16" age clarification for Hinjo is so recent - I think it should be taken into account.

    So either "War & XPs Hinjo's age" is wrong - with him (and Miko) being retconned as several years older than their ages in that book suggest, or Gin-Jun's "searching for 22 years" reference needs to be fudged - ruled as referring to the moment they discovered the Cloak was a danger in itself and abandoning it was a mistake - some years after the actual massacre.

    IMO it's easier just to fudge Gin-Jun's statement.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Fudging the statement would actually be somewhat reasonable to make the timeline fit. They might not have known the Mantle was powerful for some time after the raid.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    IMO it's easier just to fudge Gin-Jun's statement.
    I don't event think it needs to be fudged; it reads pretty naturally that way. If ten years ago I found a ring on the beach and tossed it aside, then five years later found out it was a Ring of Three Wishes and went back to look for it, I wouldn't say "for ten years I've been looking for that!"
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  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    But if you just fudge Hinjo's age in WXP, then you don't need to also fudge Lien's line about how she's older than him. Aging up current-day Hinjo takes care of that little detail.

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I don't event think it needs to be fudged; it reads pretty naturally that way. If ten years ago I found a ring on the beach and tossed it aside, then five years later found out it was a Ring of Three Wishes and went back to look for it, I wouldn't say "for ten years I've been looking for that!"
    "Fudged" - "reinterpreted" - either way, it's not a hard-and-fast guarantee of the massacre having taken place 22 years before.

    Quote Originally Posted by knag View Post
    But if you just fudge Hinjo's age in WXP, then you don't need to also fudge Lien's line about how she's older than him. Aging up current-day Hinjo takes care of that little detail.


    No matter what you do, the fact that the anthology is in reverse date order, most recent to least recent, combined with the fact that teenaged Lien in the more recently set Pier Pressure is noticeably shorter than her adult self whereas teenaged Hinjo in Scar is not noticeably shorter, IMO makes "Lien is 5 years older than Hinjo" extremely implausible.

    So, at least one published book appears to be getting at least one age retcon. Even if it's just Lien's age that changes.

    Given that one of the Sapphire Guard paladins in Pier Pressure looks exactly like an older version of one of the paladins in Scar (same haircut and outfit, but grey streaks) it seems pretty obvious that Pier Pressure is some time after Scar.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-03-04 at 03:48 PM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Reboot View Post
    Thing is, it was already known at the time of the last update that he was 13+, not 12+ - Durkula's entry even says 15...! - it's an error, not a change since the update.
    There are some people who are adamant that Durkon's vampire uses its own game-mechanical stats and not Durkon's, despite the whole reason Hel made it her High Priest was because it got all of Durkon's Cleric levels. Durkon probably won't be listed as 13+ until we actually see him cast a 7th-level spell post-resurrection
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  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    There are some people who are adamant that Durkon's vampire uses its own game-mechanical stats and not Durkon's, despite the whole reason Hel made it her High Priest was because it got all of Durkon's Cleric levels. Durkon probably won't be listed as 13+ until we actually see him cast a 7th-level spell post-resurrection
    On the other hand, Durkon pretty clearly defeated Greg, right? Given the latter’s ECL (or whatever), shouldn’t that be worth a whole mess of experience? Or not...this gets into the whole question of whether in game-mechanical terms Durkon is separate enough from Greg to merit that as an encounter or if Durkon is only getting role playing XP for it.

    I don’t think “Durkon may not be the same character as Greg and might not be getting XP that Greg earned” is the same as “Greg didn’t get Durkon’s stats plus the vampire template. I’d submit that if you think it’s even a valid question whether we ought to be awarding XP to Durkon for defeating Greg that we have to question whether “XP works just like it would if Durkon’s (non-existent but that’s neither here nor there) ‘player’ has been role playing Greg this whole time” is an adequate assumption in game mechanical terms.

  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Ephemera View Post
    I don’t think “Durkon may not be the same character as Greg and might not be getting XP that Greg earned” is the same as “Greg didn’t get Durkon’s stats plus the vampire template. I’d submit that if you think it’s even a valid question whether we ought to be awarding XP to Durkon for defeating Greg that we have to question whether “XP works just like it would if Durkon’s (non-existent but that’s neither here nor there) ‘player’ has been role playing Greg this whole time” is an adequate assumption in game mechanical terms.
    Greg's ECL was so high that it's implausible that he could have gained any significant amount of xp, much less enough to level up. Even killing and converting all those clerics at the Godsmoot probably got him exactly 0 xp because they were more than 8 (effective) levels lower than him. Same for fighting Roy. Greg spawned with the xp Durkon had and faced no combat challenges sufficiently tough to give him xp, so unless he got enough ad hoc roleplaying and quest xp to give him a level just from that, then Durkon was the same level as Greg until his resurrection.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas View Post
    Greg's ECL was so high that it's implausible that he could have gained any significant amount of xp, much less enough to level up. Even killing and converting all those clerics at the Godsmoot probably got him exactly 0 xp because they were more than 8 (effective) levels lower than him. Same for fighting Roy. Greg spawned with the xp Durkon had and faced no combat challenges sufficiently tough to give him xp, so unless he got enough ad hoc roleplaying and quest xp to give him a level just from that, then Durkon was the same level as Greg until his resurrection.
    Oh, yah, that was unclear. I have no problem with “Durkon leveled before he died.” I was asking how much XP Durkon gets for defeating Greg with the memories...

  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    So, uh, is there an estimate of the Exarch's level? Since he could cast Gate with a scroll?

    Or can any cleric do it?

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    So, uh, is there an estimate of the Exarch's level? Since he could cast Gate with a scroll?

    Or can any cleric do it?
    A first-level cleric with Wisdom 19 could possibly make the caster level check to activate the scroll above their own caster level, yes.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    A first-level cleric with Wisdom 19 could possibly make the caster level check to activate the scroll above their own caster level, yes.
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    GreataxeFighterGirl

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Sigh.

    He's just not going to cast any spells to demonstrate his level, isn't he.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    So, uh, is there an estimate of the Exarch's level? Since he could cast Gate with a scroll?

    Or can any cleric do it?
    Any cleric with 19+ Wis can attempt it, it's a caster level check, with a likely DC of 18, and no major penalty for missing unless he rolls a natural 1 on a separate wisdom check.

    Ninja, but I'll leave mine up as the fact that there's little downside to trying is still relevant.
    Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2019-03-06 at 04:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Now I want to know why the Matriarch was carrying around a Gate Scroll.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by monomer View Post
    Now I want to know why the Matriarch was carrying around a Gate Scroll.
    I'm fairly certain the Exarch was talking about Gontor's body, especially with the "when it died" part.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    I'm fairly certain the Exarch was talking about Gontor's body, especially with the "when it died" part.
    Ahh, yes, Thanks, that makes a lot more sense, especially considering the Matriarch didn't die yet, just her daughter.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    We know about what caster level Haley’s wand of Magic Missile is. It has 3 missiles in 973, so it’s a 5th or 6th level wand.

  24. - Top - End - #174
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    I think we definitely have to retcon Lien's statement that she's 5 years older than Hinjo. Even aside from the paladin who appears to be the same in both (but older in Lien's story), we know that "Pier Pressure" absolutely must come after "How the Paladin Got his Scar" chronologically, because Lien's a commoner and being recruited into the Sapphire Guard, and the Sapphire Guard didn't recruit commoners before then. And we know that, as of PP, Lien is not yet of the age of majority. That would mean, as an absolute bound, that Hinjo in HtPGhS must be at least five years away from the age of majority, and probably younger yet, which strains credulity. And considering that all of those points are plot-relevant, while the relevance of Lien's statement would be equivalent if she instead said "five years younger", I think that's the obvious choice of what to change.

    On Gontor, meanwhile, don't we know that he's at least level 7? He said that he and the other stone clerics constructed the godsmoot cathedral using Stone Shape.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    He doesn't explicitly mention what spell they used, though. However, if that's the lowest spell possible for constructing something out of stone, that's a reasonable lower bound.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    What are the OOTS's chances against the nightcrawler? It actually seems well-suited to resist them - DR/silver & high SR make it resistant to most spells and attacks (even V has to roll a 14 or higher to beat the SR), undead (immune to most of Elan's abilities and Haley's sneak attack), immune to cold (and therefore Haley's frost bow)... I get the impression Roy's plot-sword will have to save the day (or V will have to get lucky with a few choice spells).

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    On Gontor, meanwhile, don't we know that he's at least level 7? He said that he and the other stone clerics constructed the godsmoot cathedral using Stone Shape.
    To cast Gate from a scroll without possibility of failure he has to be 17th level.

  28. - Top - End - #178
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    What are the OOTS's chances against the nightcrawler? It actually seems well-suited to resist them - DR/silver & high SR make it resistant to most spells and attacks (even V has to roll a 14 or higher to beat the SR), undead (immune to most of Elan's abilities and Haley's sneak attack), immune to cold (and therefore Haley's frost bow)... I get the impression Roy's plot-sword will have to save the day (or V will have to get lucky with a few choice spells).
    Haley does carry silver arrows at least (hence being able to use a silver and a cold iron together against Sabine). It's immune to the extra frost damage, but the physical damage from the arrows themselves, if silver, will work, since magic bows imbue their magic on their ammo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    To cast Gate from a scroll without possibility of failure he has to be 17th level.
    Doesn't he need a Wis of 19 to be able to activate it at all?

    We know he needs to be at least level 13 for the Nightcrawler to be controlled at all when called (2xHD of caster, for single monsters).
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-03-08 at 10:24 AM.
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  29. - Top - End - #179
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Doesn't he need a Wis of 19 to be able to activate it at all?
    Yes. From here:

    Quote Originally Posted by d20srd
    Activation
    To activate a scroll, a spellcaster must read the spell written on it. Doing so involves several steps and conditions.

    Decipher the Writing
    The writing on a scroll must be deciphered before a character can use it or know exactly what spell it contains. This requires a read magic spell or a successful Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level).

    Deciphering a scroll to determine its contents does not activate its magic unless it is a specially prepared cursed scroll. A character can decipher the writing on a scroll in advance so that he or she can proceed directly to the next step when the time comes to use the scroll.

    Activate the Spell
    Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.

    To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

    - The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
    - The user must have the spell on his or her class list.
    - The user must have the requisite ability score.

    If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers.
    Gate's a level 9 spell, so the vampire requires 19 wisdom (or possibly 19 intelligence/charisma, if it's an Arcane scroll and the vampire is something along the lines of a mystic theurge, not that we've seen any signs of that).

    Quartz isn't wrong inasmuch as the vampire would need a caster level of 17 (assuming that the scroll is the minimum caster level for a ninth level scroll) in order to cast a Gate scroll without a chance of failure, but I don't think anything in the rules suggests that successfully activating the scroll on the first attempt to use it would look any different whether a caster level check was required or not and as such I don't think its successful use of the scroll can really be used to set its minimum character level, at least not in any meaningful way.
    Last edited by Aeson; 2019-03-08 at 10:42 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by NoHaxJustPi View Post
    He doesn't explicitly mention what spell they used, though. However, if that's the lowest spell possible for constructing something out of stone, that's a reasonable lower bound.
    Except that Stone Shape is only level 3 for clerics, so it gives us the same lower bound as being a vampire in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Stone Shape
    Transmutation [Earth]
    Level: Clr 3, Drd 3, Earth 3, Sor/Wiz 4
    Note that the Creed of the Stone just might have Earth as a domain, so he's probably got it both as a regular spell and as a domain spell at level 5.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    We know he needs to be at least level 13 for the Nightcrawler to be controlled at all when called (2xHD of caster, for single monsters).
    Because he's given so many orders to the Nightcrawler since it showed up and there is no chance that Hel will assure that it does what they want (hint: It has Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 18 and is undead, it can follow Hel without orders and cooperate with the Exexarch without being under control as well as anyone).
    Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2019-03-08 at 01:59 PM.

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