The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #181
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post

    Because he's given so many orders to the Nightcrawler since it showed up and there is no chance that Hel will assure that it does what they want (hint: It has Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 18 and is undead, it can follow Hel without orders and cooperate with the Exexarch without being under control as well as anyone).
    Yah, that’s probably right. It seems, at minimum, a pretty munchkin move to open a gate to your goddess who happens to send through a creature to fight for you instead of regarding that as a summon, but there’s no particular RAW reason why that couldn’t be happening here.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Ephemera View Post
    Yah, that’s probably right. It seems, at minimum, a pretty munchkin move to open a gate to your goddess who happens to send through a creature to fight for you instead of regarding that as a summon, but there’s no particular RAW reason why that couldn’t be happening here.
    I actually consider using Gate like some sort of uber summons to be the munchkin use. Calling a natural ally to come help you without compulsion is what I consider to be the reasonable use.

    Gate in a servant of your goddess, chosen by your goddess, while on a vital mission for your goddess, and treat it as an ally rather than a special ability to summon anything up to double your HD and order it around. This is not the munchkin use.

    [For the Record: I think the ExExarch is probably level 14 or so, but he hasn't done anything to demonstrate this level yet.]

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    I actually consider using Gate like some sort of uber summons to be the munchkin use. Calling a natural ally to come help you without compulsion is what I consider to be the reasonable use.

    Gate in a servant of your goddess, chosen by your goddess, while on a vital mission for your goddess, and treat it as an ally rather than a special ability to summon anything up to double your HD and order it around. This is not the munchkin use.
    Interesting. See, I feel like the gate spell contains specific limitations on strength of a summons as well as an extra cost to use it that way, so this feels like skirting that cost. Totally reasonable plot wise, but the whole “instructed by/ally of my goddess” part would seem to be encompassed mechanically as the mechanism by which you can summon something with a gate spell in the first place.

    That said, this is probably vaguely off-topic since we are in agreement that this isn’t going to shed any light on the ex-Exarch’s level.

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    I would think the nightcrawler is uncontrolled, since the Exarch didn't pay it and yet probably wants it to stick around for more than 1 round/CL to guard the entrance. Of course the line "Fighting for you in a single battle" makes it a bit trickier. Can that battle be in the future? It seems it would be ridiculous to ask for a battle 100 years in the future or something, but maybe a short time in the future is okay? I would rule no to the first and yes to the second as a GM, but it seems like RAW it should be either no to both or yes to both. But despite this line, the Exarch seems to think Thor might send in some cavalry, so he probably wants it for more than a single battle.

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenzis View Post
    I would think the nightcrawler is uncontrolled, since the Exarch didn't pay it and yet probably wants it to stick around for more than 1 round/CL to guard the entrance. Of course the line "Fighting for you in a single battle" makes it a bit trickier. Can that battle be in the future? It seems it would be ridiculous to ask for a battle 100 years in the future or something, but maybe a short time in the future is okay? I would rule no to the first and yes to the second as a GM, but it seems like RAW it should be either no to both or yes to both. But despite this line, the Exarch seems to think Thor might send in some cavalry, so he probably wants it for more than a single battle.
    I mean, technically we don’t know that yet, he could be about to command it or enter into a protracted 3-strip-long negotiation with it. But I’m willing to be that even paying an XP cost is a level of in-the-weeds mechanics that the giant would rather not get into so I doubt we ever know.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    We don't know that Not-Gontor activated the scroll without a chance of failure. All we know is that he activated the scroll. And the minimum caster level for doing that is 1 (though he does still need the 19 Wis).

    Once he's activated the scroll (by luck or by guarantee), his stats no longer matter. The Gate spell is cast at the scroll's caster level (which is at least and probably equal to 17), and any XP cost was already paid by the scroll's creator.

    Given that he's on a direct mission from his deity, and that it's her absolute highest priority, and given his phrasing of "giving our mistress the opportunity to send reinforcements", I think that it's likely that he just used the "open the portal" option, giving whatever was on the other side the opportunity to choose to come through. The Nightcrawler is therefore uncontrolled, and he wasn't guaranteed to get a Nightcrawler to begin with, but he had reason to be confident that something helpful would come through, and the Nightcrawler presumably shares his goals even without being controlled.

    It's also possible that the Nightcrawler was only the first thing to come through, and that there will be yet more reinforcements.

    And my mistake on Stone Shape's level-- I have 5e on my brain, and didn't think to double-check it in the 3e rules.
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  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    And my mistake on Stone Shape's level-- I have 5e on my brain, and didn't think to double-check it in the 3e rules.
    Heh, I assumed you confused it with the Wiz/Sor level, but fifth doesn't have separate levels for the same spell in different classes, so it comes to the same thing. Easy mistake to make.

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    I wonder if Shojo's Wizard could be a Wayfarer Guide. The class allows the caster to teleport more people than a standard caster would at an equivalent level. Teleporting 6 other people would normally require a casting level of 18, while a Wayfarer Guide could conceivably do so at a minimum level 10 (9 caster levels + 3 for a class special ability that allows a WG to teleport an extra small/medium sized character for every WG level he would have).

    https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuil...rerguide.shtml

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    And, in this theory, is Tsukiko also a Wayfarer Guide?
    New theory: they both went to the same wizarding school that specialized in producing Wayfarer Guides. Of course, since that was the only wizard Shojo had who could teleport the Order, I think the school had a kind of Santa with Muscles thing going on, but that's another story. This post will be preserved for all time, unfortunately.
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  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    And, in this theory, is Tsukiko also a Wayfarer Guide?
    Hrm. I know you're only half-serious, but overthinking things like that is the point of this thread, so...

    She theoretically has the room in her build for the two levels of Wayfarer Guide she needs to accomplish that, although stopping Mystic Theurge progression for that would be a bizarre choice. And she'd need +1 CL or to be one level higher than our assumptions, because level 2 Wayfarer Guide gives up a caster level (why would anyone ever take that level, seriously.)

    I'm honestly more inclined to assume that she has a magic item or feat that lets her teleport additional undead (or affect additional undead with her spells in general), since that fits her character.

    I'm surprised there's no metamagic feat that lets you eg. add an additional target to a spell with three or more targets.
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2019-03-16 at 12:14 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    This being D20, there is, just in some sourcebook you've never heard of.

    Honestly, I think it might be harder to find the rule you want in D20 than in Palladium (not something I ever thought possible).

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    GreataxeFighterGirl

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    The Exarch's definitely ordering the worm around, right? Does this give him a lower bound on level?

  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    As was mentionned, him ordering the worm around does not necessarily mean anything because that worm is their ally and would be listening to him either way.

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    The Exarch's definitely ordering the worm around, right? Does this give him a lower bound on level?
    Sure! Cleric 1.

    I wonder how long I can keep this gag running...
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  15. - Top - End - #195
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    As was mentionned, him ordering the worm around does not necessarily mean anything because that worm is their ally and would be listening to him either way.
    Even if it did mean he was controlling the nightcrawler through the spell, it'd be driven by the scroll's caster level rather than his own.
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  16. - Top - End - #196
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Sure! Cleric 1.

    I wonder how long I can keep this gag running...
    Well he did cast Invisibility purge, which is a lvl 3 spell.

    Meaning he's officially at least Cleric 5.

  17. - Top - End - #197
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Well he did cast Invisibility purge, which is a lvl 3 spell.

    Meaning he's officially at least Cleric 5.
    Damn, I was so intent on the question itself I missed that. I am shamed.
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  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Sure! Cleric 1.
    Not true!

    If that was all we had to go on, he could also be an Expert with a bunch of UMD ranks.
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2019-03-18 at 01:25 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    Not true!

    If that was all we had to go on, he could also be an Expert with a bunch of UMD ranks.
    Nah, Experts can't cast spells. The trick is he left it simply at "high level" spells, which is subjective. Those sneaky Exarch tricks!
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  20. - Top - End - #200
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Nah, Experts can't cast spells. The trick is he left it simply at "high level" spells, which is subjective. Those sneaky Exarch tricks!
    Well, let's say that, hypothetically, an expert with a bunch of UMD ranks somehow convinced people he was a high-level cleric and got an invitation to the Godsmoot. He's hardly going to admit it, right? And "oh oops I cast all my spells already today, what a shame" seems like a pretty good way to duck the issue.

  21. - Top - End - #201
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    Well, let's say that, hypothetically, an expert with a bunch of UMD ranks somehow convinced people he was a high-level cleric and got an invitation to the Godsmoot. He's hardly going to admit it, right? And "oh oops I cast all my spells already today, what a shame" seems like a pretty good way to duck the issue.
    An alternate identity would certainly be impressive to pull off while in the Circle of Truth.
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  22. - Top - End - #202
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    An alternate identity would certainly be impressive to pull off while in the Circle of Truth.
    All that he says is that he's the Exarch of the Creed of Stone! That's a formal position. Nothing says an Expert with a lot of UMD can't finagle his way into it.
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2019-03-18 at 01:49 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #203
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    All that he says is that he's the Exarch of the Creed of Stone! That's a formal position. Nothing says an Expert with a lot of UMD can't finagle his way into it.
    We do have Word of Giant, at least:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Gontor is a non-theistic cleric because I needed him to be a non-theistic cleric for the plot to unfold correctly.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Non-theistic clerics get their spells from a wide distributed network of beings with similar philosophies who can act as catalysts for the cleric—but because these are not centralized, none of them can exercise "veto power" over the cleric, nor is the cleric required to acknowledge their dominance (or even their existence). In Gontor's case, it may be that a powerful Earth Elemental is granting him his spells, but it could be a different one each day, or even some spells from one and some from another. If any of those elementals decide they don't like what he's doing with his magic, he just gets his spells from someone else that day. He may even be entirely oblivious to which elemental provides his spells at any point, and therefore is under no obligation to any of them. Unfortunately, that also means that no single elemental is going to be invested enough in Gontor to care what happens to him.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    As I see it, Gontor would have thought that he could convey a consensus opinion from the lesser elemental beings that granted him spells. Sort of like a moot within a moot. He would argue that as quasi-divine beings, they deserve a say in what is decided. However, it is also possible that he has never actually been allowed to witness the Godsmoot and therefore his understanding of it is less than perfect.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-03-18 at 01:53 PM.
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  24. - Top - End - #204
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    Well, let's say that, hypothetically, an expert with a bunch of UMD ranks somehow convinced people he was a high-level cleric and got an invitation to the Godsmoot. He's hardly going to admit it, right? And "oh oops I cast all my spells already today, what a shame" seems like a pretty good way to duck the issue.
    And now we know why casting summon proxy constitutes proof of identity!



    Also, invisibility purge has a 5-foot-per-caster-level radius centered on the caster; so if we somehow knew how far away Haley/Vaarsuvius/Blackwing are, we could determine the minimum caster level of the Exarch (or possibly of the invisible magic item the Exarch is UMD-ing, I suppose).
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2019-03-18 at 01:55 PM.
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  25. - Top - End - #205
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Also, invisibility purge has a 5-foot-per-caster-level radius centered on the caster; so if we somehow knew how far away Haley/Vaarsuvius/Blackwing are, we could determine the minimum caster level of the Exarch (or possibly of the invisible magic item the Exarch is UMD-ing, I suppose).
    They seem more than 100 feet away to me. I conclude that the Exexarch is epic.
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    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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  26. - Top - End - #206
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    They seem more than 100 feet away to me. I conclude that the Exexarch is epic.

    Grey Wolf
    If only he'd said Widened Invisibility Purge, we'd have a pretty reasonable estimate.
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  27. - Top - End - #207
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    If only he'd said Widened Invisibility Purge, we'd have a pretty reasonable estimate.
    Or Burlew's Narrative Rangefinder.
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  28. - Top - End - #208
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Sure! Cleric 1.
    Not again!

    Sigh.

  29. - Top - End - #209
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Or Burlew's Narrative Rangefinder.
    Minor Greater Dwarven Evil Vampire Divine Burlew's Narrative Rangefinder (Earth Domain)
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    Level: Cleric 6

    This spell functions like Burlew's Narrative Rangefinder, except that to cast it, you must have exactly 14 cleric levels, no more and no less; you must have the Earth domain; you must be evil; and you must be a dwarven vampire.

    As with all versions of Burlew's Narrative Rangefinder, these requirements may be bypassed if the caster is a shapeshifted Chimera with class levels or their significant other, whether they are alive or dead.
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2019-03-18 at 08:19 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #210
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

    If we can calculate the height of the dwarves in #1155 (which can be derived from Exarch*'s height, which can be derived from Durkon*'s height when they met) then we could estimate the width of the bridge (a major point of reference in the larger cave) and then use #1159 to see how far away the far door is by scaling the width of the bridge (which appears to be the same throughout) between the close end of it and the far end of it.

    My personal estimate is "roughly 50-60 feet" from one end of the bridge to the other and Haley and V are a bit into the room already so I'd cut off another 10-15 feet, putting him at ~8th level. I'm sure we'll get more from him later that'll make it far more definitive.

    Not to mention the use of the Gate Scroll- which, I'm not the most familiar with 3.5- would his confident use of it without expectation of failing that DC 18 CL check (since I highly doubt he's 17th level, else he'd just prepare Gate himself and have crushed the order by himself) put him decently high level? Not hard evidence of course, but I'd say this also puts him in the same sort of range as my estimate, if not slightly higher.
    Last edited by Gluteus_Maximus; 2019-03-18 at 08:35 PM.
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