New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Results 1 to 12 of 12
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    right behind you

    Default sci fi/fantasy metals

    Im sure everyone here has read about things like mithril, durasteel, unobtanium, vibranium, whatever. These things dont exist in and of themselves. There arent adamantium molecules wandering the cosmos as far as we know. What im wondering about is, do we have a hardcap on what we can produce through alloys of currently known metals? Like, is there a set limit where science has said, "We can only make a metal this strong, this durable, this resistant to whatever and no more."? Or are we still growing and developing new techniques that suggest we are not even close to the limit of what we can produce? And with the periodic table of the elements, we have created a number of new ones over the years, elements that dont exist naturally. Does that mean that some day we might actually find a way to create elements that do all those stupid currently impossible sci fi things? Or is the only thing in that direction ever more unstable elements that decay rapidly and are barely useful beyond "Hey look what I made?!"
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Lvl 2 Expert's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Tulips Cheese & Rock&Roll
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: sci fi/fantasy metals

    There may or may not be an "island of stability" in the unknown parts of the periodic table, super heavy elements with at least one relatively stable isotope. But there probably won't be a lot of those. So in terms of new elements we're a little limited.
    The Hindsight Awards, results: See the best movies of 1999!

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: sci fi/fantasy metals

    Generally speaking, the farther the outer electron orbital is from the nucleus, the weaker the bond. Those hypothetical elements would have a lot of orbitals, and so would probably be poor materials (and quite heavy as well).

    That said, you could easily substitute in a real metal for a fantastic one. Mithril, for example, could simply be rebranded titanium if you want some hard science underlying the legendary chain shirt your hero wears.
    Last edited by Leewei; 2019-02-08 at 03:30 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    Feb 2014

    Default Re: sci fi/fantasy metals

    We haven't made any elements that haven't existed before, our particle accelerators are just replicating on a small scale the stellar explosions that birthed all the heavy elements that exist.
    What we think of as man-made elements are simply the ones with a half life too short to be dug out of a mountain. If long term stable elements beyond our current understanding existed, we would have found at least traces of them.
    "The error is to be human"

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PirateGirl

    Join Date
    Dec 2013

    Default Re: sci fi/fantasy metals

    In terms of elements, there's a theoretical hard cap on the number of elements that exist based on the strength of the strong nuclear force compared to the electrostatic force. The limit is somewhere around 140, I believe, which also explains why the higher elements are remarkably unstable. (One binds atoms, the other would compel them to shatter. Higher-element atoms would thus be easily shattered.)
    I write a horror blog in my spare time.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Apr 2018

    Default Re: sci fi/fantasy metals

    As far as alloys are concerned, the primary limits are basically the solubility limits of one metal in another, and within that, you have to also consider how the crystalline property of the material changes as you toy around with the alloy concentration. There's a lot of work that goes into transitioning between different crystalline phases, which is something very interesting.

    There's also a huge interest in nanostructures (nanometer-scaled structures) in terms of materials science research. I'm not really too familiar with that, but applications there are largely meant for filtration, as far as I know.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2015

    Default Re: sci fi/fantasy metals

    Quote Originally Posted by OutOfThyme View Post
    There's also a huge interest in nanostructures (nanometer-scaled structures) in terms of materials science research. I'm not really too familiar with that, but applications there are largely meant for filtration, as far as I know.
    Filtration is only a small fraction of the potential applications being studied. Optoelectronics--nanowires have been used to develop LEDs, for example--are another big area, as are electronic interfaces and sensors. When you go that small, cool things start to happen with quantum confinement, and people are trying to work that into all sorts of electronics. Also, a lot of nanostructures just sort of spontaneously self-organize during processes such as CVD, so there's also this whole area of engineering trying to see if nanostructures can be made that don't necessarily do anything new or do something old better, but might be a cheaper substitute.

    Nanostructures are also being studied for mechanical properties--one of the reasons people were so excited about carbon nanotubes at first was their remarkable strength--but I don't know whether that line of research is still considered promising or is beginning to stall. Fun, and back on-topic, side note, I read a paper somewhere (or maybe it was a YouTube video) that talked about how Damascus steel got its strength from the presence of carbon nanotubes: Obviously, smiths in those days had no idea what was going on at a nanoscale, but they did manage to stumble upon conditions in which nanotubes would spontaneously form and make their swords stronger, and they learned to repeat this process.
    Last edited by Xyril; 2019-02-08 at 08:17 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Apr 2018

    Default Re: sci fi/fantasy metals

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    Filtration is only a small fraction of the potential applications being studied. Optoelectronics--nanowires have been used to develop LEDs, for example--are another big area, as are electronic interfaces and sensors. When you go that small, cool things start to happen with quantum confinement, and people are trying to work that into all sorts of electronics. Also, a lot of nanostructures just sort of spontaneously self-organize during processes such as CVD, so there's also this whole area of engineering trying to see if nanostructures can be made that don't necessarily do anything new or do something old better, but might be a cheaper substitute.

    Nanostructures are also being studied for mechanical properties--one of the reasons people were so excited about carbon nanotubes at first was their remarkable strength--but I don't know whether that line of research is still considered promising or is beginning to stall. Fun, and back on-topic, side note, I read a paper somewhere (or maybe it was a YouTube video) that talked about how Damascus steel got its strength from the presence of carbon nanotubes: Obviously, smiths in those days had no idea what was going on at a nanoscale, but they did manage to stumble upon conditions in which nanotubes would spontaneously form and make their swords stronger, and they learned to repeat this process.
    Oh yeah, nanowires. I'll admit they slipped my mind. My mind mostly goes towards nanoparticles as far as nanostructures are concerned, and the stuff I've worked on thus far has almost entirely been on either filtration or for catalysts and the like.

    From what I've seen, people are making strides on the CNT front, but there's a lot more interest in the electrical and thermal properties of CNTs, Stuff like conductors with CNTs set in them, and aligned during the cooling process with the right magnetic/electrical field being applied across the material.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: sci fi/fantasy metals

    Alloy wise there should be some fairly easily calculated (massively) upper bounds, and then the materials scientists will have much betters ones.

    As mentioned you can in principle extend the periodic table indefinitely, but it's only extending, and Beermug-Paladin gives a theoretical cap, based on the forces.
    There might be a loophole there, additional neutrons would contribute strongly but not electrically, and they have to come from somewhere...
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...f-life.svg.png
    Kind of shows the effect, if you imagine the black line ought to be continuing to the left of the graph, but that neutrons and protons are not produced in sufficient ratios to explore that end. But also shows why it's not likely to be the case (it should lie between blue and orange), there's is a kink there, which has probably been explained but might give some wiggle room.

    Failing that you probably need to go more exotic, so to throw some silly ideas...

    Could you have 2 pseudo-nuclei with a shared electron structure. Well I suppose that if you split them apart enough so they are almost separate that is what molecules and metallic structures are, so yes. Rather could you have some more complex structure in between (and if so explain why we don't see it). Some kind of "Pico-technology" might explain how they can create them.

    Similarly to the above, doing the same on a intra nuclear level, rather than just a liquid drop. Maybe future scientist could lie-to-children it to us as alternating protrons and neutrons so the strong and electrical balance stably. I'm sure nano-tubes would seem unstable to earlier approximations of binding energies.

    Finally can you do something with different quarks (I don't think so, a top-top-bottom 'proton' would be the same chemically, you just get heavy radioactive iron).

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Lvl 2 Expert's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Tulips Cheese & Rock&Roll
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: sci fi/fantasy metals

    A materials field where we still have quite some stuff to work with is composites. Materials build up of more than a single type of element or molecule. For the purpose of this discussion that's anything from an alloy where the materials are intermixed on the atomic level to rebar concrete, where the materials are combined on a macro scale. Xyril mentions the option to mix nanotubes into steel. In essence that's the same effect as rebar concrete, and the same as pykrete, ice containing wood fibers. You use a material with a high resistance against pulling forces to enforce a material that's already quite resistent to pushing and compressing forces. It's a good example because the different substances interact on a microscale. Traditionally hardened medals become more likely to fracture because they're less likely to deform when exposed to great stresses. These fractures start very small, but spread quickly under force. Microscale composites are interesting partly because of their resistance to this type of fracturing, the microfractures that come into existence run into a fiber and can't spread through it, giving the material at a macroscale increased toughness without the material having to be ductile.

    And that's a fairly simple interaction. It's possible that future production methods will allow us to work with more complex composites with other properties. Take wood for instance: it's one of the most versatile plastics we have, despite much or most of it being empty space, long dead cells that barely contribute to its material properties. Wood is in essence a composite of two polymers, similar to the carbon nanofiber steel (actually, I think it might add a lot more to aluminum, but that aside). But zoom out a little bit further and there are several other layers to the organization. Take for instance the grain of wood: a log is much easier to split than to chop through sideways. The material has directional properties because of the way it has grown. If we can exploit those kinds of properties we will be able to make a much larger diversity of artificial plastics, and it might even have applications for metals. Maybe like a tiny honey-rate structure made of titanium filled with aluminum? It could be a pretty different material from a traditional allow of the same substances.

    So if you're looking for wiggle room to allow for futuristic or fantastic materials in a heavily real world based setting (or looking to invent such substances yourself), I'd look at composites.

    P.S. If this post makes less sense than it should: I forgot like half the proper terms. Materials science is very interesting, I just don't regularly use most of it.
    Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2019-02-10 at 02:01 PM.
    The Hindsight Awards, results: See the best movies of 1999!

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2013

    Default Re: sci fi/fantasy metals

    Another possibility is atomic engineering - essentially, putting the atoms of your metal (and only your metal, so no impurities) exactly where you want them, so you eliminate flaws, or place additives in the correct place in the crystaline lattice so that they give the properties you're after.

    You'd also be able to control the crystal formation, which could give any desired directional properties.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Jan 2019

    Default Re: sci fi/fantasy metals

    Quote Originally Posted by OutOfThyme View Post
    As far as alloys are concerned, the primary limits are basically the solubility limits of one metal in another, and within that, you have to also consider how the crystalline property of the material changes as you toy around with the alloy concentration. There's a lot of work that goes into transitioning between different crystalline phases, which is something very interesting.

    There's also a huge interest in nanostructures (nanometer-scaled structures) in terms of materials science research. I'm not really too familiar with that, but applications there are largely meant for filtration, as far as I know.
    For alloys with only a few metals this is true, and also alloys that have a dominant metal. There are modern alloys using many metals that work very differently.

    One interesting thing to note about these alloys is that there are an absurd number of them available, and their behaviour can be wildly different. Predicting how they will behave is very difficult, so they are great as 'whatever you need it to do' SciFi materials.

    The bonds between atoms have limits to their strength, so there is a limit to how hard a material can be. There are also limits to how far those bonds can be stretched and still be strong, and that puts a limit in terms of absolute strength. We can do interesting geometry to make the bonds stretch less than the bulk, which will make a material more able to stretch further, but only at the cost of hardness.

    I believe we are about an order of magnitude away from what the bond strengths suggest is possible for a metal. Maybe 2 for carbon composites.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •