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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RogueGirl

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    Default What party of 4 (Edit: 6) would most showcase what 4e is?

    Hi everyone!

    I was thinking about what differentiates 4e from 3/3.5 or from 5e and that lead me to the question:

    What do you think would be the quintessential 4e 4-player party to showcase the differences to 3.5 and 5e and enforces what makes this edition what it is?

    I don't know if I can explain what I mean but I thought it maybe worthwhile to discuss at least... (I did a similar thread for 5e)

    Cheers, Waspy
    Last edited by Wasp; 2019-03-03 at 03:25 AM.

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    Default Re: What party of 4 would most showcase what 4e is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wasp View Post
    [COLOR=#333333]
    What do you think would be the quintessential 4e 4-player party to showcase the differences to 3.5 and 5e and enforces what makes this edition what it is?
    I don't think it's a question of what *party* showcases what 4e is. The standard D&D party has pretty much always been "fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard" and that's the quintessential party in *every* edition, largely because that's what they build around (and all 4 of those are pretty much the strongest in 4e as well, because of the sheer number of options they get).

    The stuff that made 4e special was how it implemented each of those classes. In my opinion, the quintessence of 4e comes down to 5 design concepts:

    • balance: you no longer end up with useless low-level wizards or useless high-level fighters; every class is viable and useful from level 1 to 30 and, unless you're *trying* to screw up a character, you will be effective; this also extends to the monster math being *super simple* yet extremely versatile
    • resource management: a separation of short term per-fight resources and long term per-adventure resources (aka hp v. healing surges and encounter v. daily powers); this meant that *all* players had to plan ahead, not just the spellcasters, and that a single unlucky fight that cost a bunch of hp wouldn't screw you over for the rest of the adventure; it also placed a limit upon how complicated that planning had to be, since planning out a high level spellcaster in other editions requires a lot of accounting; healing is big and flashy, limited not by a player's spell list but by the target's "heroic-ness" and ability to push through, which gives a good "this is why your PCs are special" element
    • player roles: all defenders can fill that niche; all leaders can fill that niche; etc.; this allows you to have an entire party of a single power source, if you want, which you can't really do effectively in any other edition; also, they each do their own thing while still providing to the party's success outside of just dumping damage on in slightly different ways; design-wise, it also made it much easier to balance everything since you just needed to keep a specific archetype of the role in mind while also making it easier to build a balanced party (one defender, one leader, one striker, one controller)
    • everyone acts: every significant problem is *supposed* to be handled by everyone working *together*; there isn't *supposed* to be an occasion in which the party rogue is the only one rolling dice and using skills because that character is the only one that is capable of contributing (it didn't quite work out this way because of the way they implemented Skill Challenges, but the intent was there)
    • monsters roles and ranks: interesting tactical combat in which there are rules that work for a bunch of little enemies that die easy, a single big enemy that's intended to take on the whole party alone, or various places in between; it also means that, when you're fighting orcs, you're not just seeing the same orc warriors over and over and over and over, occasionally led by a shaman or a war chief; low level fodder actually becomes *interesting* to fight (and you can also throw a single high level popcorn enemy at a low level party by converting it to a solo monster)


    I think it's kind of ironic that most of these are only really apparent or valued by a GM since they all really serve to keep people engaged at the table and to allow for control of the adventure pacing while keeping things interesting. It's pretty much impossible to get a good feel for 4e D&D with a single combat; 4e was designed with the adventure/dungeon in mind, not a single fight or room.
    Last edited by ThePurple; 2019-02-09 at 05:30 AM.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: What party of 4 would most showcase what 4e is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wasp View Post
    What do you think would be the quintessential 4e 4-player party to showcase the differences to 3.5 and 5e and enforces what makes this edition what it is? ...
    My 2 cp :

    • Fighter - a must : a showcase that the Fighter can have nice things
    • Warlord - to many, it's the 4e class

    ... and then, it gets harder to choose...
    • Warlock - always cool, good fluff, very nice.
    • Swordmage - the Fighter-Mage I never knew I always wanted. A revelation for me.
    • Invoker - a really cool class in play - and an excellent controller w/o the Wizard's baggage of "must be better"
    • Rogue - a classic, not sure it screams 4e! to me though...
    • Cleric - NOT having a cleric is an important 4e hallmark


    So yeah, my choice (at this moment) : Fighter - Warlord - Swordmage* - Invoker

    *Maybe more folks would think Hexblade here ?
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    Default Re: What party of 4 would most showcase what 4e is?

    As an addition, the monster "status" are an (IMO) under-used mechanic :

    Have the players face ogres as [Solo] when level 1, as [Elite] when level 5, as [Standard] at level 10, and so on.

    Do something similar with other creatures and you can really show (as opposed to tell) the principles of fiction that 4e can leverage for awesome stories.

    This is not to say that everything can, or should, be adjusted to players - merely that when it's story-appropriate, the tools are there to make it work.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: What party of 4 would most showcase what 4e is?

    I agree that the Fighter and Warlord are absolute musts, exemplars for their roles and highlighting key features of the game. I think the Ranger and Wizard are the definitive Strikers and Controllers, and to demonstrate the game to its best advantage is to include one of each role in the party.
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    Default Re: What party of 4 would most showcase what 4e is?

    It’s hard to say without pinning down exactly what we’re trying to get at. Part of me wants to say Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Wizard, as that has always been the iconic 4. Now you can build them all for each edition and then see how they compare and contrast on paper. I don’t think this is the most helpful, as you aren’t showing how the various abilities hold up in play.

    If you wanted to do that, then I’d suggest running it as a couple of short adventures, one low and one high level. Have a mix of iconic challenges and roughly a day’s worth of expended resources each time. This gives you a chance to really see how things play, as well as showcasing the differences on the DM side, which are some of the big ones.

    If it’s more an exercise in what is unique to each system, then I’d probably take the four roles and tweak their power source. Swordmage/Avenger/Warlord/Druid fills all the roles, but not in a way that you see in other editions.

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    Default Re: What party of 4 would most showcase what 4e is?

    I’m going to focus mostly on what makes 4e BETTER, not just what makes it different.

    Let’s start with a dragonborn warlord, with the dragonfear power instead of the breath weapon. A race present from the edition’s start which eventually got many effective, simple and flavorful adaptations to make it more unique in action – that’s something 4e has done better than 3e or 5e. The warlord class highlights how healing in 4e is thematically and practically different, and it also provides probably the best example of 4e’s team orientation because the warlord’s work constantly and thoroughly involves the rest of the party.

    Then let’s say a drow rogue. That race/class combo can bring attention to edition differences in darkness, concealment, vision and stealth – you have to know the interactions to use the cloud of darkness power and to do your sneaky skulking stuff. Drow doesn’t have quite as much worthwhile support as dragonborn, but they do have paragon paths, items, feats, powers and even themes that set them apart. Rogues have utility powers that are useful in or out of combat, and many of their attack powers involve movement, so they’re constantly using class features that non-casters don’t get in 3e/5e. The rogue has a striker mechanic that’s easy to understand and apply and which does a good, reliable job of fulfilling their combat role. (And like the warlord, it too can highlight teamwork -- much easier to get CA from others' actions.) Rogue’s choice of secondary stat shows how one class can be a couple very different things (also done reasonably well in 5e but not 3e). A 4e rogue typically has more skill than other classes, but not drastically more, and that’s a difference between editions. And while 5e followed 4e’s example in terms of how broad each skill is, the sheer amount a rogue can do in 4e eclipses the 3e equivalent.

    We should have a ritualist (because for better or worse that IS a difference in editions). I’ll go for a deva invoker, multiclassed to wizard with the augury and ritual-oriented feats. Rituals, devas, wizards and invokers all use Intelligence and Wisdom. This kind of character can have very broad noncombat impact with mechanical support, but an invoker’s combat effectiveness will make it obvious that there’s no need to sacrifice one ability set to get the other.

    And we might as well do the “striker – controller – leader – defender” thing … I don’t have much more to show off, but I love dwarves even more in 4e than elsewhere, so let’s do a dwarf battlemind. They’re suuuuper tough but not simply by virtue of having a bazillion hit points; instead, they’re tough because of race and class features. (As obryn said, “You're not passively a dwarf, you're actively dwarfing your way through obstacles.”) The battlemind class uses a different resource management system for combat actions, with a lower threshold for comprehension than 3e ToB or PoW but much more variety than 5e’s tiny spattering of maneuvers. And battlemind makes its protection/punishment/denial very obvious on the play mat, which shows what the concept of ‘defender’ can mean and how drastically it can change a battle.
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: What party of 4 would most showcase what 4e is?

    I'm 99% behind Dimers's choices, but while I love the battlemind, and the idea of "actively dwarfing your way through obstacles," I'm not sure the Battlemind is iconic enough for 4e to be the choice here.

    Fighter, to show that even fighters can get nice things, is also good, but this is largely covered by the rogue.

    So I'd actually like to suggest:

    - Dragonborn Warlord
    - Drow (or just Elf) Rogue
    - Deva (or Dwarf) Invoker or Deva (or Eladrin) Wizard

    and finally, Tiefling Cha-ladin, to show off the revised tiefling, emphasize the different alignment system and how a demonic character in a holy role isn't a contradiction, the way a "physical" character can be based entirely around a stat you might not expect, and solid yet simple defender mechanics.
    Last edited by ve4grm; 2019-02-11 at 03:02 PM.

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    Default Re: What party of 4 would most showcase what 4e is?

    Of course, you'd need one of each role.

    Leader: Dragonborn Warlord to show that you can be a healer without being a spellcaster.
    Defender: Human Fighter, to show that they can now play on the same field as other classes.
    Striker: Halfling Rogue, to emphasize on combat advantage.
    Controller: Dwarf Druid, to show how to use minor actions, wild shape from level 1.

    Over all characters, try to get as many (save ends) effect as possible to show that mechanic.

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    Default Re: What party of 4 would most showcase what 4e is?

    Quote Originally Posted by ve4grm View Post
    and finally, Tiefling Cha-ladin, to show off the revised tiefling, emphasize the different alignment system and how a demonic character in a holy role isn't a contradiction, the way a "physical" character can be based entirely around a stat you might not expect, and solid yet simple defender mechanics.
    I could totally get behind that too. I dislike the concept and name of tieflings, but I'm a mechanics guy, the flavor doesn't matter. And your "differences in editions" reasoning was much stronger than mine for the battlemind.
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    Default Re: What party of 4 would most showcase what 4e is?

    Leader: Human Brash Warlord

    Defender: Waraxe Dwarf Fighter (Weaponmaster)

    Striker: Half-Elf Avenger of Ioun
    (low level variant: Human Avenger of Ioun|Hybrid Assassin -- corrupted by Vecna)

    Controller: Eladrin Hybrid Wizard|Swordmage

    Why:

    Warlord simply because it shows how the Leader role is no longer "Cleric only". While the Lazylord is tempting, the Brash Warlord leads ot more moments of awesome.

    Fighter because this is an edition where fighters get to do cool stuff. Build it as a vortex that dominates the battlefield.

    Avenger because it is a brand new class and idea that fell out of 4e design ("Divine striker?"), and a well built Avenger is awesome. At low levels you may have to hybrid Assassin to prevent a well built Fighter from stealing your spotlight. Later (paragon-ish), that isn't a problem.

    And the Church of Ioun with its assassin-librarians is equally awesome lore.

    Controller Wizard naturally. Hybrid Swordmage to create an effective int-based spell-slinging sword-using gish that, while awesome, doesn't overshadow the Fighter. Eladrin for Eladrin Swordmage Advance fun. Ridiculous build complexity here, to show off that 4e characters don't have to be simple.
    Last edited by Yakk; 2019-02-12 at 11:40 AM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: What party of 4 would most showcase what 4e is?

    Building on the ideas of others:

    *Dragonborn Warlord
    *Tiefling Paladin
    *Deva Invoker
    *Half-Orc Ranger

    Nice variety of races, covers all the stats, showcases some of the new classes (Invoker) very nicely. Highlights the importance of multi-attacking, zone defending, and attack granting.

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    Default Re: What party of 4 would most showcase what 4e is?

    Quote Originally Posted by masteraleph View Post
    *Half-Orc Ranger
    You know, I don't think I'd agree with those that say Ranger as the striker. While it's iconic for optimization, it doesn't really show off much about the edition that's unique or interesting. If you want the quarry mechanic, I'd go with Warlock instead. If you want a striker, I'd go with the team-and-skill-based Rogue to show the difference to 3.5, or the Avenger to show something entirely new.

    Not that there's anything wrong with the Ranger (it's extremely effective, after all), but there isn't much that's super interesting either, IMO.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: What party of 4 would most showcase what 4e is?

    Quote Originally Posted by ve4grm View Post
    You know, I don't think I'd agree with those that say Ranger as the striker. While it's iconic for optimization, it doesn't really show off much about the edition that's unique or interesting. If you want the quarry mechanic, I'd go with Warlock instead. If you want a striker, I'd go with the team-and-skill-based Rogue to show the difference to 3.5, or the Avenger to show something entirely new.

    Not that there's anything wrong with the Ranger (it's extremely effective, after all), but there isn't much that's super interesting either, IMO.
    It's not the quarry mechanic- it's the "more damage instances better" mechanic, which is how strikers operate. Don't get me wrong- I really like the Rogue, but I think the Rogue shows a lot better at level 11 with Daggermaster, which gives it something interesting and flavorful. At level 1, you've got Sneak Attack 1/turn (but effectively 1/round unless someone's granting you attacks), and that doesn't feel like it shows much to me. Warlock is interesting at level 1, but Warlocks are terrible strikers even in upper Heroic- if you're showing this at level 7, say, then Rogue, or Ranger, is going to show you a lot more.

    If you're showing something at higher levels, then options open up more. Battleminds are way more interesting, and showcase a lot more about power points for that matter, at level 7 than at level 1. Rogues have Low Slash and one of the other off action attacks at that point, which is interesting. Monks have a nice smattering of Full Discipline powers, which help show off tactical movement. Swordmages- Shielding ones at least- also give you a lot more by that point (Transposing Lunge, Dimensional Vortex, Booming Blade is still around- if it weren't for liking the Tiefling Paladin idea, an Eladrin Shielding SM or SM|Warlock would be my ideal defender here for showing off interesting things).

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    Default Re: What party of 4 would most showcase what 4e is?

    In discussing this thought experiment with my wife last night, she said she'd like to include a Primal class, as it's a largely new power source for 4e, which got me thinking and reconsidering my options.

    I think I'd still go with Warlord/Paladin/Rogue, but my controller might be a Human Druid, with Ritual Caster to show off ritual mechanics. I'd have them balanced between caster-type and Wild Shape, as it is a very unique ability that changed a whole lot from 3e. The ability for a class to change its mode of operation mid-fight is very interesting to me. On top of that, Primal is a very cool concept of a power source, and making the Druid into a non-Divine character was huge.

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    Default Re: What party of 4 would most showcase what 4e is?

    Quote Originally Posted by ve4grm View Post
    In discussing this thought experiment with my wife last night, she said she'd like to include a Primal class, as it's a largely new power source for 4e, which got me thinking and reconsidering my options.
    I always loved the idea of Wardens, even if the implementation isn't particularly optimized. They have an interesting niche between barbarians and druids, especially with their transformative dailies.
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    Default Re: What party of 4 would most showcase what 4e is?

    I like a lot of the points people have brought up. And I agree with a lot of them.

    Warlord, for certain as the Leader class. Emphasizing the lack of "need" for a cleric is a huge defining factor for 4e, and while Bards are also excellent in this role, the Warlord using a Martial power source is quintessential to driving home the disconnect between healing and magic.

    Invoker is a great controller, mechanically. It's also the only Divine class not restricted to Holy Symbols for Implements, opening up new concepts for classes with ties to the divine. It's also one of the rare Controller classes to wear heavy armor.

    Warlock is my choice for ranged striker. A class that can utilize its "striker damage mechanic" consistently, not dependent on Combat Advantage like a Rogue. For melee striker, I choose Barbarian, hands down. Their extra damage is folded into their powers. Avengers are cool and all, but when it comes to excelling at playing down melee hurt, barbarians can't be beat.

    Now, for defender. I like the stickiness of the Fighter, and it really resonates with me what others have said about using this to emphasize how 4e gave fighters much more to do. Dragon born Fighter with the Hurl Breath feat can mark every target in a Burst 2 within 10 as a minor action. However, if we're trying to showcase all of what 4e has to offer, I think one of the psionic classes is appropriate. In which case, Battlemind gets my vote.

    Thing is, default party size in 4e is 5 people, not 4. I usually recommend one of each class role, with an extra striker (one melee and one ranged). And I usually DMed for a group of 6. My recommended 6th class is a second Defender, one who minors in Leader. By having two Defenders, the heat is taken off the rest of the party. And one who can assist in healing takes some of the burden off the Leader, who will find themselves taxed if the party is larger then 5. To that end, I suggest Life Warden from Primal Power. A STR/WIS class, it gets even better with a dwarf. Dwarf Life Wardens can spend their Second Wind as a minor action, and grant an ally within 5 squares the ability to spend a healing surge. Wardens also do not auto mark their enemies, so when enemy numbers run low, they can let the Fighter take the lead.
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    Default Re: What party of 4 would most showcase what 4e is?

    Fighter, Warlord, Warden, Monk.
    I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel

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    Default Re: What party of 4 would most showcase what 4e is?

    I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who played 3.5 and not 5e, so I'll mostly be focusing on the differences there.

    Leader: Warlord. Been mentioned to death here for good reason, this is an archetype no other edition of DnD has managed to do right.

    Striker: I'm actually going to go with Rogue here, because 3.5 rogue always felt like it should be this super mobile class that has a ton of positional play and just...wasn't, because of how reliant damage dealing was on full attacks. Meanwhile, 4e rogue has a ton of built in mobility with their powers, and a lot of reason to care about positioning between Cunning Stalker and flanking, or powers like Lashing Blade and Darting Strike.

    Defender: Paladin. The icon of the paladin who stands at the front of the fight and yells "COME GET ME" is pretty iconic, and again isn't something 3.5 really supported. Fighter is a close second due to having a similar archetype, but I feel Fighter ALSO has the striker archetype that older editions play into, while paladins are more dominantly defensive in people's minds.

    Controller: I'm actually going to cheat a bit here. Invoker|Wizard. Show off a hybrid, because I really like the hybrid system 4e has. You get an Int/Wis baseline (GASP, a divine character who can actually be good at Religion? Heresy!) and 2 potent classes that, between them, can show off all 3 kinds of control (forced movement, soft control, and hard control) pretty effectively. Wizard|Psion would also be an option here, but psionic|non-psionic is weird
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    Default Re: What party of 4 would most showcase what 4e is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wasp View Post
    Hi everyone!

    I was thinking about what differentiates 4e from 3/3.5 or from 5e and that lead me to the question:

    What do you think would be the quintessential 4e 4-player party to showcase the differences to 3.5 and 5e and enforces what makes this edition what it is?

    I don't know if I can explain what I mean but I thought it maybe worthwhile to discuss at least... (I did a similar thread for 5e)

    Cheers, Waspy
    One of each role.

    Defender: IMO, the fighter (the PH1 version) is the best at this. Some other defenders, like the warden, come close, but the fighter has all the needed tools out of the box. I still remember my very first game as GM (with the actual books, not a preview) and a dragonborn fighter marked so many opponents with a fiery breath. I reviewed the rules and saw that it was ... legal. The warden has to work to be as sticky as the fighter.

    Striker: Archer ranger (PH1 version). More reliable damage than the rogue (but not the thief) and you'll be showing off your minor actions, your interrupts, and so forth. Furthermore the streamlined skill list really makes the ranger shine out of combat. I'd go with an elf, because Wild Step works really well with the ranger, plus Wisdom as a secondary stat is also really good. I ignore the PH1 advice to make Strength the secondary stat. Close call: the fire elementalist sorcerer.

    Controller: Wizard. I have never seen as well-designed a controller class. The Essentials mage is also good... because it's 99% the same. I'm particularly fond of multi-target spells that deal damage and inflict conditions, so I like spells like Icy Rays. The non-Essentials wizard gets Ritual Caster for free as well.

    Leader: Warlord. The only issue is the flavor one (some people hate martial healing). I would also avoid the lazy warlord. I know there's people who like it, but the warlord's player should get to roll some attack dice too. Dragonborn (a "new" race) make really good warlords. Healing as a minor action, with range (so you don't have to give up too many actions to heal someone) and it uses their healing surges, not your daily resources. Furthermore your abilities can buff casters, not just martial PCs.
    Last edited by Kimera757; 2019-02-25 at 06:53 PM.

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    RogueGirl

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    Default Re: What party of 4 would most showcase what 4e is?

    Thank you everyone for all the great suggestions, I very much appreciate it.

    So the first two are pretty much a lock in
    • Dragonborn Warlord, and
    • Human Fighter (or Dwarf?)


    And then it seems to get complicated, so I will cheat and follow the suggestion of a six person group (it's the classic party size anyway)

    • Deva Wizard|Invoker (Deva is very 4e, Hybrid is a new concept, Invoker is new as well),
    • Tiefling Warlock (a bit cliche but basically the surprising new flavor in 4e),
    • Eladrin Swordmage(Swordmage may be the quintessential gish, Eladrin is new), and
    • Human Rogue (or Drow?) or ...??? (not really convinced I have found the right second [Melee?] Striker)


    What would be your opinion on this party? And at what levels would you show them off? What could Paragon Paths/Epic Destinies be for these 6?
    Last edited by Wasp; 2019-03-03 at 03:24 AM.

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    Default Re: What party of 4 (Edit: 6) would most showcase what 4e is?

    Well, hell, if we're doing six then we gotta include all the power sources! And let's go all-out and represent all the ability scores too.
    • Dragonborn warlord (martial, Str)
    • Mul battlemind (psionic, Con)
    • Drow executioner (shadow, Dex)
    • Deva wizard (arcane, Int)
    • Elf druid (primal, Wis)
    • Tiefling paladin (divine, Cha)


    Wasp, I'll probably comment on your party-of-six soon, but right now I'm up waaaaaay too late at night.
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    Default Re: What party of 4 (Edit: 6) would most showcase what 4e is?

    For 6:

    Leader: Human Brash Warlord

    * The class has such fun mechanics, and it demonstrates the leader role in 4e so well.

    Defender: Waraxe Dwarf Fighter (Weaponmaster)

    * No edition of D&D has done a better fighter.

    Striker: Dragonborn Sorcerer

    * A ranged striker with some fun mechanics.

    Controller: Eladrin Hybrid Wizard|Swordmage

    * A ridiculously complex class. A gish, powerful in its own right, doesn't outshine the fighter.

    Striker: Half-Orc Barbarian or Half Elf Avenger

    * Both fun melee strikers.

    Defender|Striker: Tiefling Warlock|Paladin Hybrid

    * A completely different Gish than the Wizard|Swordmage, for variety.
    Last edited by Yakk; 2019-03-03 at 01:08 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: What party of 4 (Edit: 6) would most showcase what 4e is?

    What a fun thread, and great to have people discussing 4e in 2019!

    My random thoughts on some of these great suggestions:

    1. I feel like psionic power source is severely under-represented. Perhaps that's commentary on how weak people find these classes, but I did like the Battlemind suggestions.

    2. I'm glad there have been few (none?) Essentials suggestions! :->

    3. Perhaps I'm too unimaginative, but I don't feel the Rogue and Ranger suggestions - those classes seem similar in tenor to their counterparts in any other edition of D&D to me. Sure, there are some ripples, but unless you seriously CharNotOp (hopefully for the sake of RP), there aren't exactly a myriad of good variations, and the good ones seem to be very similar to other editions.

    4. Avenger. Hitting is so important, and with the inability to stack items and/or buffs to boost your strength for extra "to hit" and "damage" bonuses through the roof, you need to get it elsewhere - crit fishing and a high-W weapon on a mobile, lightly-armored character showcase some of the ways you can compensate.

    5. Not sure what to say about spellcasters, but definitely need at least one in your 4 to demonstrate the differences between editions. Regardless of which you choose, the extremely shortened durations of conditions and the roll-to-hit with spells differentiate this from some other editions. As does the suffocatingly small list of spell options. Yet somehow, in spite of these three "gimps", I don't know if anything compares to the havoc a well-designed high-end Wizard/Mage build can bring. And doing something like the aforementioned Wizard/Invoker Hybrid build shows off the lack of restrictions on multiple power sources.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: What party of 4 (Edit: 6) would most showcase what 4e is?

    Quote Originally Posted by fieminamor View Post
    4. Avenger. Hitting is so important, and with the inability to stack items and/or buffs to boost your strength for extra "to hit" and "damage" bonuses through the roof, you need to get it elsewhere - crit fishing and a high-W weapon on a mobile, lightly-armored character showcase some of the ways you can compensate.
    For a long time I've held the opinion that avenger's striker mechanic should have been critfishing (including the double-roll mechanism, of course). I wish WotC had had the same idea.
    Avatar by Meltheim: Eveve, dwarven battlemind, 4e Dark Sun

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  26. - Top - End - #26
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: What party of 4 (Edit: 6) would most showcase what 4e is?

    Divination critfishing:

    Burst 5, 2 creatures. Make Wis vs AC on both, double roll. If you hit at least one, pick one you hit. Shift 5 adjacent to it and deal [W]+Wis damage.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: What party of 4 (Edit: 6) would most showcase what 4e is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    For a long time I've held the opinion that avenger's striker mechanic should have been critfishing (including the double-roll mechanism, of course). I wish WotC had had the same idea.
    The real problem is that the MC Avenger feat (the Wis 13 one) gets you a 2 round OoE on an enemy who can probably do it better. I played a Pixie Rogue who MCed Avenger and used Daggermaster to do exactly that. By upper Paragon, Turn 1 was basically: Oath of Enmity/Tumbling Strike/Circling Predator, making 6 rolls that crit on an 18, and that's before action pointing. In Epic, took Divine Mastery to regain OoE and the feat that makes OoE a Free action, and also Martial Mastery and Epic Resurgence to regain more powers, so it looked more like OoE/Tumbling Strike/Circling Predator/Low Slash, hopefully with a crit and an MBA via TWO, and if necessary, an Action Point there. If that's a standard, it's probably dead, and then Turn 2 gets OOE/Tumbling Strike/Circling Predator again. Mix in Riposte Strike and Antipathy Gloves and it could knock a couple of enemies out in those first two rounds, with fun crit fishing.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: What party of 4 (Edit: 6) would most showcase what 4e is?

    Quote Originally Posted by fieminamor View Post
    What a fun thread, and great to have people discussing 4e in 2019!

    My random thoughts on some of these great suggestions:

    1. I feel like psionic power source is severely under-represented. Perhaps that's commentary on how weak people find these classes, but I did like the Battlemind suggestions.

    2. I'm glad there have been few (none?) Essentials suggestions! :->
    I think these are both for the same reasons. Neither psionics nor essentials is necessarily weak, but neither feels "iconic" to 4e to a lot of people. Psionic classes don't show what's different about 4e compared to 3.5 or 5e, because they themselves are different from standard 4e classes. And essentials classes either aren't different enough (Slayer, Knight) or are the same as standard 4e, so they don't really showcase anything special.

    I love both, myself, for different reasons. But I wouldn't put them in this list.

    3. Perhaps I'm too unimaginative, but I don't feel the Rogue and Ranger suggestions - those classes seem similar in tenor to their counterparts in any other edition of D&D to me. Sure, there are some ripples, but unless you seriously CharNotOp (hopefully for the sake of RP), there aren't exactly a myriad of good variations, and the good ones seem to be very similar to other editions.
    I suggest Rogue to show what a martial class looks like when given more than just "I stab it" as an option (as in 3.5, and some of 5e). Others suggested the Fighter, but I personally felt other tanks were more interesting, and the Rogue had the same issues in other editions.

  29. - Top - End - #29
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    Default Re: What party of 4 (Edit: 6) would most showcase what 4e is?

    It isn't that psionic power is weak, but rather that I find it showcases 4e poorly. The power point mechanics lead to optimal play often revolving around "optimize one low-augment power and repeatedly use it".

    While other classes you often end up optimizing an at-will, you at least either use off-standard encounters or encounters that are "at-will plus". With the psionic classes, there is much less of that.

    One part of what makes 4e combat more interesting than many other editions is that both the combat state and each and every character's state varies in ways more interesting than "you have less HP" over the combat.

    Now, you can see less successful attempts (than the core ADEU engine) to get this "character internal state making combat more interesting" to work with Runepriests and Rune State, and somewhat successful Full Discipline Monks, as well as stance-based essentials characters.

    Hence my bias towards AEDU classes, and ones which impose extra state on the battlefield or interact with it in interesting ways.

    Spoiler
    Show

    It does make me think about how you could do essentials with more combat state.

    Take a pseudo-essentials fighter.

    We keep the idea of the basic attack and stances. But instead of stances being "turn on", what if when you change stances to a new one you get a short term boost?

    Like:
    Iron Tide + Fighter At-Will Stance 1
    Minor Action
    Effect: While in this stance if you hit a foe with a melee basic attack you may push the target 1 square and they you may shift 1 into a square the foe occupied. If you are using a shield and the attack would hit the target's fortitude, you may increase your push and shift distance by 1.
    Finisher: Once per encounter when you leave this stance for another, your next successful basic attack before the end of your next turn may push its target 1d6+1 squares and deal an extra [W] damage.

    Blade Dance + Fighter At-Will Stance
    Minor Action
    Effect: While in this stance you may, as an opportunity action triggered by being attacked in melee, shift half your speed (round up) to a square adjacent to the attacker. If you do so you gain a +2 power bonus to AC and gain combat advantage against the attacker until the end of your next turn.
    Initial: Once per encounter when you enter this stance, you may make a basic attack with a weapon with the offhand property as a free action.

    Steadfast + Fighter At-Will Stance
    Minor Action
    Effect: Whenever you suffer forced movement (push, pull, slide or teleport), you may make a saving throw to negate it. If you do suffer forced movement, the distance you are forced to move is halved (rounded up). So long as you are in the square you started your last turn in, you gain a +2 power bonus to all defences.
    Finisher: Once per encounter when you leave this stance for another, you may consume a healing surge to gain temporary HP equal to your healing surge value. These temporary HP last until you take a long or short rest.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: What party of 4 (Edit: 6) would most showcase what 4e is?

    My vote goes to one of two parties:
    • bard, chaladin, artful dodger rogue, arcanist wizard
    Edit: plus laser cleric and sorcerer
    • half-lazy melee warlord, sword’n’board fighter, two weapon ranger, invoker
    Edit: plus artificer and bow ranger

    Both groups get a good mix of buffs, debuffs, hard and soft control, skill diversity, and targeted damage output. Also, there’s a lot of good inter-party synergy with the forced movement of the bard and wizard to counter enemy mobility for the rogue, and with the warlord’s ability to grant attacks to both the fighter and the ranger (who will both make fantastic use of them). Most importantly, these classes all have fairly good powers and their mechanics are easy to learn but hard to master.
    Edit: Same goes for the new additions, pretty much.

    The first party is good at keeping enemies at range while the striker picks off stragglers (artful dodger is good at pouncing a weak link then retreating without consequence), and each member of this group can drop an artillery strike if something poses a higher threat. The second party has a much higher damage and marking capacity due to the warlord, and careful selection of fighter and ranger powers can really lay on the soft control. Also, the invoker has a lot more hard control and powers with excellent targeting; controller locks down an enemy, and the rest of the party gets charge-happy for the first round.
    Edit: Laser cleric can use several helpful utility and daily powers to build a defensive area where the party can avoid counter-fire (and is, of course, a capable healer). The sorcerer boasts a host of AoE to add more boom to the wizard’s pile of control (not to mention a few excellent close-range attacks). In a party with multi-hitters such as the ranger and fighter and an enabler like the warlord, an artificer massively increases the damage threshold of the group while allowing expertly rearranged surges to bump up the party’s durability an extra step. The bow ranger is able to throw around a lot of great debuff powers in exchange for slightly lower damage than its melee cousin, but since it’s still getting the artificer’s damage buffs with multiple attacks it’s not like you’re going to fall behind.

    The biggest draw for the first party is that your defenses don’t have to be too much of a focus, but you have to get your offense as high as possible so enemies don’t get to close in.
    Edit: With the new additions, the first group can handle pretty much anything you throw at it at any given level with a bit of effort, but it still requires some mental effort to execute (unrelated note: if the blasters take options such as War Wizardry and War Wizard’s Expertise, it can be extremely fun to just position the party all around its enemies and blast away at the area the party stands in, annihilating the battlefield but leaving your friends relatively untouched). The only real weakness to this group is a lack of in-your-face toughness.

    The second group has tougher members (in general), but still needs to drop a little offense in favor of survivability.
    Edit: The artificer let’s the group pretty much ignore survivability as it teams up with the warlord to rearrange the party and its resources to handle each new problem. With its buffs active and the bow ranger adding a couple more attacks a round, offense is also drastically increased. This group has one glaring weakness that’s somewhat difficult to handle. While the invoker can lay down hard control to shut down multiple opponents at once, when Team PC faces an equal number of enemies, they might not be able to muster enough forced movement to make best use of their controller.
    Last edited by MinotaurWarblad; 2019-03-25 at 06:55 PM.

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