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  1. - Top - End - #991
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    What I want to know now, is Miko's opinion on rock music.

    Quote Originally Posted by Batman
    Punk is nothing but death, and crime, and the rage of a beast.
    I see Batman watches a lot of Quincy.
    Last edited by Ruck; 2019-06-12 at 10:55 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #992
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I see Batman watches a lot of Quincy.
    Yes, he does so love a good pudding every so often.
    Then, he refines the seeds and uses them to knock people out!*



    *Quince seeds have a chemical which can function as a toxin if eaten in overly high quantities. Add 3 spoonfuls of Comic Book Physics and you have an organic sleep-bomb thing.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It shall be swift and ruthless. Unless any Ruths intend to join, in which case it shall be ruthful.
    Purple is the color of humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is the color of serious conversation about theoretical ideas, if transitioning from other stuff
    Blue is the color of irony and sarcasm


    In the end, its all in the cards...

  3. - Top - End - #993
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Nuts, it doesn't make any sense without the immediately preceding post. Edited for clarity.

  4. - Top - End - #994
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Nuts, it doesn't make any sense without the immediately preceding post. Edited for clarity.
    No, nuts are something completely different. That'd be for a brittle or something.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It shall be swift and ruthless. Unless any Ruths intend to join, in which case it shall be ruthful.
    Purple is the color of humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is the color of serious conversation about theoretical ideas, if transitioning from other stuff
    Blue is the color of irony and sarcasm


    In the end, its all in the cards...

  5. - Top - End - #995
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    What I want to know now, is Miko's opinion on rock music.
    Clearly, before her parents died they told her not to listen to it. Maybe she’s more of a jazz fan, anyway.


    Peelee’s Lotsey

  6. - Top - End - #996
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    More likely the monks told her than music was a decadent excess that would distract her from prayer and meditation and punching things really really hard.

  7. - Top - End - #997
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    What if Miko never kills Shojo?

    First and most importantly, she doesn't fall.

    Second, if she's anywhere but the throne room, Lord Soon will successfully kill Xykon and Redcloak.

    Third....even if she is in the throne room, she's unlikely to be affected by the symbol of insanity cause...she's already borderline insane. She might make her save and then act like she didn't, rather convincingly!

    4th, they will have to convince her Roy isn't evil, even though he clearly doesn't detect as such.

    5th...you need a new main bad guy, because Xykon and Redcloak are now toast...

    6th: the greeter mission of beating the Snarl becomes semi impossible, because Redcloak is now dead and the Dark One now no longer has any powerful spellcasters with which to contribute a 9th level spell slot's worth of quiddity.

  8. - Top - End - #998
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelalex242 View Post
    What if Miko never kills Shojo?

    First and most importantly, she doesn't fall.

    Second, if she's anywhere but the throne room, Lord Soon will successfully kill Xykon and Redcloak.

    Third....even if she is in the throne room, she's unlikely to be affected by the symbol of insanity cause...she's already borderline insane. She might make her save and then act like she didn't, rather convincingly!

    4th, they will have to convince her Roy isn't evil, even though he clearly doesn't detect as such.

    5th...you need a new main bad guy, because Xykon and Redcloak are now toast...

    6th: the greeter mission of beating the Snarl becomes semi impossible, because Redcloak is now dead and the Dark One now no longer has any powerful spellcasters with which to contribute a 9th level spell slot's worth of quiddity.
    To top it off, they'll never get a confirmation vis a vis the "I think Redcloak is 18th level" comment.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It shall be swift and ruthless. Unless any Ruths intend to join, in which case it shall be ruthful.
    Purple is the color of humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is the color of serious conversation about theoretical ideas, if transitioning from other stuff
    Blue is the color of irony and sarcasm


    In the end, its all in the cards...

  9. - Top - End - #999
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    To top it off, they'll never get a confirmation vis a vis the "I think Redcloak is 18th level" comment.
    The forums would be consumed by the argument.

  10. - Top - End - #1000
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    The forums would be consumed by the argument.
    Are they not anyway?
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  11. - Top - End - #1001
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    As The Giant pointed out a while back, it's Javert, that is the core of the Miko concept.

    Javert and Batman are not all that alike.
    No, but an orphaned lone-wolf aristocrat driven by sublimated anger who uses ninja skills and improvised gadgets to subdue opponents who substantially outnumber or out-tier them while adhering to an internalised code of conduct isn't exactly worlds apart. The Javert comparison, I think, leads to its own problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelalex242 View Post
    6th: the greeter mission of beating the Snarl becomes semi impossible, because Redcloak is now dead and the Dark One now no longer has any powerful spellcasters with which to contribute a 9th level spell slot's worth of quiddity.
    There are other Clerics of the Dark One, you know, and if most of the Gates are still intact (or repairable) it's possible that there could be centuries to go before the Snarl unravelled the planet. Time enough to grind a few levels, possibly.
    Give directly to the extreme poor.

  12. - Top - End - #1002
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    No, but an orphaned lone-wolf aristocrat driven by sublimated anger who uses ninja skills and improvised gadgets to subdue opponents who substantially outnumber or out-tier them while adhering to an internalised code of conduct isn't exactly worlds apart. The Javert comparison, I think, leads to its own problems.


    There are other Clerics of the Dark One, you know, and if most of the Gates are still intact (or repairable) it's possible that there could be centuries to go before the Snarl unravelled the planet. Time enough to grind a few levels, possibly.
    Clerics of that level are immensely rare. This is a world where Haley doesn't even know if there ARE 18th level Clerics in existence, and that would be including the high priests (who are probably like 15th level but still). Also, TDO has Goblins as his main worshippers. They don't get to a high level often, if they are they become bosses of a dungeon and get killed. Odds are the next most powerful Cleric is like, level 12 at most. There might be time enough to get a couple levels, but since there's only one gate left and the Snarl, if loose, will devour the world in less than half an hour? The odds of a new sufficiently high tier cleric of TDO in time are minimal. And they can't fix the current gates, since based on some prequel bits you would need to have someone who is Epic level to make a new gate/fix it.
    And it'll ruin much of the purpose of the current plot, though you don't seem to be bothered by that.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It shall be swift and ruthless. Unless any Ruths intend to join, in which case it shall be ruthful.
    Purple is the color of humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is the color of serious conversation about theoretical ideas, if transitioning from other stuff
    Blue is the color of irony and sarcasm


    In the end, its all in the cards...

  13. - Top - End - #1003
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Clerics of that level are immensely rare. This is a world where Haley doesn't even know if there ARE 18th level Clerics in existence, and that would be including the high priests (who are probably like 15th level but still). Also, TDO has Goblins as his main worshippers. They don't get to a high level often, if they are they become bosses of a dungeon and get killed. Odds are the next most powerful Cleric is like, level 12 at most. There might be time enough to get a couple levels, but since there's only one gate left and the Snarl, if loose, will devour the world in less than half an hour...
    We were discussing some hypothetical scenario where Miko never kills Shojo, which Angelalex242 suggests would mean that the Azurite Gate is never destroyed and Xykon/Redcloak get killed in the throne room, so 3 out of the 5 Gates are still standing. And sure, yeah, this'll wreck the currently-defined plot, but the premise of the thread was to imagine a scenario that already assumes this happened.

    Yeah, there are various reasons why Goblins don't generally get to high levels, but once the pressure is off the Gods can have pretty much any of their clerics find and contact an amenable goblin cleric and form an adventuring party for the purpose of granting them enough XP to cast level-9 spells. I'm sure Tiamat or some other evil deity would be happy to set up a dungeon filled with captive humans, or perhaps Malack and Tarquin could construct some kind of, oh, I don't know, gladiatorial arena where people fight to death for entertainment purposes and/or gain combat experience.
    Give directly to the extreme poor.

  14. - Top - End - #1004
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Do people seriously argue against comparing Miko to Batman?
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  15. - Top - End - #1005
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Batman doesn't kill people. That's, like, one of his main shticks.

  16. - Top - End - #1006
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelenius View Post
    Batman doesn't kill people. That's, like, one of his main shticks.
    Also, he nominally isn't magic, whereas Miko is.

    The parallels pretty much begin and end at "human who fights people."
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  17. - Top - End - #1007
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelenius View Post
    Batman doesn't kill people. That's, like, one of his main shticks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Also, he nominally isn't magic, whereas Miko is.
    But that's pedantic. It's like saying that they can't be comparable because she's female.
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  18. - Top - End - #1008
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    But that's pedantic. It's like saying that they can't be comparable because she's female.
    Not really? "Don't kill" is, as noted, one of Batman's core values. It shapes his identity as a superhero as well as his fighting style. Miko has no qualms about lethal action and indeed seems to prefer it as a problem solving method.

    The point is, the similarities are only superficial, at a level where you could draw similar comparisons between most any two characters.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  19. - Top - End - #1009
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    But that's pedantic. It's like saying that they can't be comparable because she's female.
    The magic part is, I agree; his tech may as well be magic. But the no-killing is not in any way semantic. Batman has lines he won't cross no matter what. Miko, as it turns out, didn't.
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    All hail the dragon.

  20. - Top - End - #1010
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    We all know that Lacuna isn't comparing their moral characters, no? He even list their comparision points and called her "kind of like Batman with more bloodshed."
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  21. - Top - End - #1011
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Doesn't seem like a useful comparison then. Two-Face is like Batman if he couldn't handle the duality. Zsasz is like Batman if he went the other way when his parents died. Riddler is like Batman if he used his intelligence against others. That's three wholly different characters that fit "like Batman but different."

    What makes Batman what he is is his code. Take that away and he's just another hero. Maybe a ninja would be a more apt comparison, since he's basically a ninja. A ninja is kind of like Batman, but with more bloodshed. That is a pretty fair thing to say. But a poor comparison for Miko.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heksefatter View Post
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  22. - Top - End - #1012
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Doesn't seem like a useful comparison then. Two-Face is like Batman if he couldn't handle the duality. Zsasz is like Batman if he went the other way when his parents died. Riddler is like Batman if he used his intelligence against others. That's three wholly different characters that fit "like Batman but different."
    Well, I wouldn't call it not useful, considering how much Batman writers focus on these comparisons between them. Isn't that the whole point of most comic book villains? Dark versions of the hero?
    What makes Batman what he is is his code. Take that away and he's just another hero. Maybe a ninja would be a more apt comparison, since he's basically a ninja. A ninja is kind of like Batman, but with more bloodshed. That is a pretty fair thing to say. But a poor comparison for Miko.
    That would be an apt comparison, if we were choosing Miko as Batman's successor. But, we're not, it's cherrypicking to focus on that part of Lacuna's post and then arguing and making jokes about it for a whole page.
    Last edited by martianmister; 2019-06-16 at 06:30 PM.
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  23. - Top - End - #1013
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    Well, I wouldn't call it not useful, considering how much Batman writers focus on these comparisons between them. Isn't that the whole point of most comic book villains? Dark versions of the hero?
    Well, yes, that's exactly right. But it just goes to further my point of "there's a lot of ground thar can be covered by making that kind of analogy."
    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    That would be an apt comparison, if we were choosing Miko as Batman's successor. But, we're not, it's cherrypicking to focus on that part of Lacuna's post and then arguing and making jokes about it for a whole page.
    I'm not saying that was justified, I'm just saying that the comparison is much less tenuous than it was made out to be, since it could be stretched to cover all manner of sins.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heksefatter View Post
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  24. - Top - End - #1014
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelenius View Post
    Batman doesn't kill people. That's, like, one of his main shticks.
    Unless they are robots, aliens, or robot aliens.
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  25. - Top - End - #1015
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Miko is more the The Punisher than Batman, from what I know of the three.

    The, 'what if,' scenario of Azure City winning the battle might be interesting to think about, since it circumvents the easy answer of, 'If she didn't kill Shojo, Xykon would have killed them both because that's what Xykon does.' If we just go ahead and assume that he doesn't, it leaves us with two options:

    1. Xykon's dead! The main villain becomes... Nale? That's weird, but he knows about the gates and everything. We just need to make sure he kills Tarquin somehow, because having him as the main villain would be flatly unacceptable.

    2. Xykon flees without the gate exploding! He goes to Girard's gate next, predictably. Don't Split the Party never happens, and consequently neither does Darth V, but Xykon can probably kill Girard's family himself; he's stronger than Familicide's creator ever was. The OOTS and the Sapphire Guard are both screwed over by bad coordinates, Redcloak has time to complete the ritual, and the campaign ends with a Game Over.
    Last edited by Dr.Gunsforhands; 2019-06-17 at 12:43 AM.
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  26. - Top - End - #1016
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Batman has a strict no-kill policy, Miko kills anything that pings as evil.
    Batman is a vigilante in a crime-filled city, Miko is a paladin in the service of her liege.
    Batman is a tech genius that made all of his gadgets, Miko uses a tanglefoot bag once, which, to our knowledge, wasn't named Mikobag, Mikofoot, or anything else on a similar note, and aside from that mostly uses her katana.
    Batman is a millionaire, Miko has a "small stipend".
    Batman is Bruce Wayne's secret identity, Miko has nothing of the like.

    To say that they're similar because they're both orphans and they both fight "bad guys" is a huge stretch to put it mildly. You could make the same argument that Miko is Superman, Wolverine, Big Boss, Inspector Gadget, Agent 47, or literally any other of hundreds and hundreds of characters.

  27. - Top - End - #1017
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    I'd like to hear the "Miko is Inspector Gadget" case, myself.

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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I'd like to hear the "Miko is Inspector Gadget" case, myself.
    • Both fight crime
    • Both are much stronger than their boss
    • Both very capable at what they do
    • Both gullible
    • Both completely clueless about the full picture of what's going on
    • Both disliked by co-worker(s) and sometimes sent on dangerous missions to get rid of them for a while


    So yeah, basically Inspector Gadget, just with more bloodshed. Does that work?

  29. - Top - End - #1019
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Also, Inspector Gadget constantly injures his boss.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  30. - Top - End - #1020
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    I forget who Inspector Gadget's boss is. I just remember Dr. Claw, and also Penny and Brain actually doing everything.

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