What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

[Resileaf]

Whether Miko resisted the symbol or not, she'd have most likely died anyway. She'd probably try to hold off Xykon and the crazed paladins while O-Chul attempted to destroy the gem, and even if she'd be more a speed bump than the rest of the paladins, she can't handle Xykon any more than O-Chul managed to when he stole the phylactery (plus if he actually had to hurry, he'd just use the moderately escapable force cage to imprison her or O-Chul).

[woweedd]

But Miko should be better equipped than O-Chul to resist the Symbol of Insjjnnjjjnjanity, right?

On the other hand, if I'm not mistaken O-Chul was well equipped to resist the Paralyzing Touch, but bad rolls happen.

Higher Charisma*, but lower Wisdom.

*Somehow.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I think it's more likely that "Oaths" being plural is the error, since why would they need to take more than one oath to defend the gate?

Because getting every paladin in the Guard's history to take the Oath at the same time would be a logistical nightmare.

Spoiler

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See the O-Chul prequel story, where Azure City is on the brink of war with another civilisation and the hobgoblins are, at best, a minor distraction.

Ah. I need to read that prequel at some point...

I suppose that you may be right that Miko, like O-Chul, would have been unaffected by the Symbol of Insanity, but I don't think it matters. Some of the other Paladins were unaffected, but were killed by those who were affected. And if she wasn't killed by the other Paladins, she would have probably been killed by Xykon, or paralyzed like O-Chul.

On one hand, Miko had enough levels on the other paladins that she'd probably survive pretty well against them (especially since they'd be attacking everyone else in a disorganized fashion). On the other hand, Xykon had enough levels on Miko to fix that once most of the insane paladins were killed.

Higher Charisma*, but lower Wisdom.

*Somehow.

Charisma isn't always about being likable, and you can't deny that Miko had a forceful personality.

[woweedd]

Because getting every paladin in the Guard's history to take the Oath at the same time would be a logistical nightmare.


Ah. I need to read that prequel at some point...



On one hand, Miko had enough levels on the other paladins that she'd probably survive pretty well against them (especially since they'd be attacking everyone else in a disorganized fashion). On the other hand, Xykon had enough levels on Miko to fix that once most of the insane paladins were killed.



Charisma isn't always about being likable, and you can't deny that Miko had a forceful personality.

Yeah, I guess, but I always interpreted Wisdom as force of will.

[Mike Havran]

Xykon had quite a bit of luck stopping O-Chul with paralyzing touch, with all that meaty Constitution. With Miko the paladin around (I agree she would remain at the Gate), there is a good chance she would have destroyed the Gate before Soon and other martyrs showed up.

Depending on Xykon's proximity to gate, he might not be even destroyed, but just dismembered like at Girard's gate. Afterwards, it's conceivable that with Castle's destruction, the nobles would panic and start to flee to their fleets (ships would be prepared anyway in case evacuation is needed) and the plot would return to its main flow.

But it would be an enormous pity, since we would miss #449.

[woweedd]

Xykon had quite a bit of luck stopping O-Chul with paralyzing touch, with all that meaty Constitution. With Miko the paladin around (I agree she would remain at the Gate), there is a good chance she would have destroyed the Gate before Soon and other martyrs showed up.

Depending on Xykon's proximity to gate, he might not be even destroyed, but just dismembered like at Girard's gate. Afterwards, it's conceivable that with Castle's destruction, the nobles would panic and start to flee to their fleets (ships would be prepared anyway in case evacuation is needed) and the plot would return to its main flow.

But it would be an enormous pity, since we would miss #449.

Would she have survived the initial SOI, though?

[Mike Havran]

Would she have survived the initial SOI, though?

Quite likely, she displayed good saves before, and even some of the lower-level paladins managed to withstand it. If O-Chul was capable to get within an inch of successfully destroying the sapphire, so could she.

[woweedd]

Quite likely, she displayed good saves before, and even some of the lower-level paladins managed to withstand it. If O-Chul was capable to get within an inch of successfully destroying the sapphire, so could she.

It's not the symbol that kills you. It's the horde of your fellow paladins who are now trying to kill you. Most likely, she's one of the people busy holding off the others when O-Chul does his thing, and she dies like they did. That, or Xykon pulls the same trick on her he did on O-Chul. Anyone can bum a save, and i'm willing to bet quite a lot of money that her Fortitude save compares to O-Chul's in the same way a canoe compares to a battleship

[D.One]

It's not the symbol that kills you. It's the horde of your fellow paladins who are now trying to kill you. Most likely, she's one of the people busy holding off the others when O-Chul does his thing, and she dies like they did. That, or Xykon pulls the same trick on her he did on O-Chul. Anyone can bum a save, and i'm willing to bet quite a lot of money that her Fortitude save compares to O-Chul's in the same way a canoe compares to a battleship

I believe the main difference beetween Miko and the others trying to hold off the insane paladins, appart from her higher level, is that she doesn't seem like someone who would be trying to hold them off with maximum care for minimum damage...

[MReav]

I believe the main difference beetween Miko and the others trying to hold off the insane paladins, appart from her higher level, is that she doesn't seem like someone who would be trying to hold them off with maximum care for minimum damage...

Though she is probably the best able to disable her fellow paladins without killing them, given her levels in Monk.

[Mike Havran]

It's not the symbol that kills you. It's the horde of your fellow paladins who are now trying to kill you. Most likely, she's one of the people busy holding off the others when O-Chul does his thing, and she dies like they did. That, or Xykon pulls the same trick on her he did on O-Chul. Anyone can bum a save, and i'm willing to bet quite a lot of money that her Fortitude save compares to O-Chul's in the same way a canoe compares to a battleship

The canon is that O-Chul managed to pave his way across the insane paladin carnage just in time to fail a save against Xykon's paralysing touch, which prevented him from destroying the gem. Also, in canon, Miko is portrayed to be at least as martially competent as O-Chul, if not more. If she was added to the guarding ranks, smart money is that she would come out of the SoI attack the same way as O-Chul did. And unlike, say, the guy who got an azure Archon in the afterlife, she could also use her advanced mobility from her Monk training to move to the gem more quickly.

[Vinyadan]

The canon is that O-Chul managed to pave his way across the insane paladin carnage just in time to fail a save against Xykon's paralysing touch, which prevented him from destroying the gem. Also, in canon, Miko is portrayed to be at least as martially competent as O-Chul, if not more. If she was added to the guarding ranks, smart money is that she would come out of the SoI attack the same way as O-Chul did. And unlike, say, the guy who got an azure Archon in the afterlife, she could also use her advanced mobility from her Monk training to move to the gem more quickly.

I undestand http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html page 2, last panel as Miko being stronger than both Hinjo and O-Chul (and also Lien). After all, they are talking about subduing her by means of violence, so I assume that she's talking about combat power, not just about how many paladin levels they have.

EDIT: O-Chul confirms that she was the best warrior in the Guard http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html

[dps]

O-Chul wasn't immune, although his Will save may or may not have been good enough. He wasn't in range at all.

I didn't say anything about being immune; I said that O-Chul and some of the other Paladins were unaffected.

[B. Dandelion]

I had the impression that Xykon was just toying with O-Chul by allowing him to get so far. He encouraged O-Chul to make a run for it and didn't attack him or do anything else to stop him until he was within reach of the sapphire. The point was to give him false hope so that Xykon could yank the rug out from underneath him at the last second, but he never really had a chance at all.

[woweedd]

I had the impression that Xykon was just toying with O-Chul by allowing him to get so far. He encouraged O-Chul to make a run for it and didn't attack him or do anything else to stop him until he was within reach of the sapphire. The point was to give him false hope so that Xykon could yank the rug out from underneath him at the last second, but he never really had a chance at all.

i mena, given O-Chul's insane Fortitude, that sound insanely risky and short-sighted..So, yeah, perfectly in keeping with Xykon's MO.

[factotum]

The canon is that O-Chul managed to pave his way across the insane paladin carnage just in time to fail a save against Xykon's paralysing touch, which prevented him from destroying the gem. Also, in canon, Miko is portrayed to be at least as martially competent as O-Chul, if not more. If she was added to the guarding ranks, smart money is that she would come out of the SoI attack the same way as O-Chul did. And unlike, say, the guy who got an azure Archon in the afterlife, she could also use her advanced mobility from her Monk training to move to the gem more quickly.

If that actually happened, though, we'd be back in the situation mentioned earlier--Redcloak would be nowhere near the castle when it explodes, and even if Xykon was destroyed in the blast (which is uncertain--after all, O-Chul survived it, and he doesn't have a lich's damage reduction), he'd regenerate from his phylactery in a week and a half or less. Meanwhile, Redcloak would not see the point of pressing the attack when the main objective is gone, so would probably leave the field. Xykon and Redcloak would teleport to Girard's pyramid long before the Order got there, and everything would actually be worse for the good guys.

[RatElemental]

If that actually happened, though, we'd be back in the situation mentioned earlier--Redcloak would be nowhere near the castle when it explodes, and even if Xykon was destroyed in the blast (which is uncertain--after all, O-Chul survived it, and he doesn't have a lich's damage reduction), he'd regenerate from his phylactery in a week and a half or less. Meanwhile, Redcloak would not see the point of pressing the attack when the main objective is gone, so would probably leave the field. Xykon and Redcloak would teleport to Girard's pyramid long before the Order got there, and everything would actually be worse for the good guys.

Unless team evil tears through the gate defenses, gets to the final double bluff, and Xykon blows the pillar (and the gate inside of it) up in a fit of rage. In which case we're down to one gate, team evil at the north pole, but without Hel trying to commit voter fraud as a side problem.

[dps]

Meanwhile, Redcloak would not see the point of pressing the attack when the main objective is gone

Why would you think that?

[BaronOfHell]

I am not certain, but did we actually get a sufficient look at Girard's pyramid defenses to be confident that Team Evil could get through long before The Order arrived?

PS: If Azure City doesn't fall, does The Order actually have to sail the oceans, or would the resources of what is left of Azure City be able to e.g. teleport our heroes or provide some other similar faster means of travel than sailing? I also assume Roy would be resurrected much sooner.

[woweedd]

If that actually happened, though, we'd be back in the situation mentioned earlier--Redcloak would be nowhere near the castle when it explodes, and even if Xykon was destroyed in the blast (which is uncertain--after all, O-Chul survived it, and he doesn't have a lich's damage reduction), he'd regenerate from his phylactery in a week and a half or less. Meanwhile, Redcloak would not see the point of pressing the attack when the main objective is gone, so would probably leave the field. Xykon and Redcloak would teleport to Girard's pyramid long before the Order got there, and everything would actually be worse for the good guys.

Actually, now that I think about it, that raises an interesting question: Could Xykon come back from The Snarl? I men, that thing devours SOULS, not physical bodies, so...

[factotum]

Why would you think that?

Is there a reason to think otherwise? I don't think Redcloak had any plans in advance to found a new goblin state in the ruins of Azure City, he decided to do that once the city was taken. If he never takes the city the thought probably never occurs to him, and the Plan requires him to go after the Gates, not set up new goblin nations.

[Fyraltari]

Shojo may have decided not to keep the living members of the Sapphire Guard inside the throne room and used them against the invading army. That might have tipped the balance in favor of the Azurites too, since in the actual battle they only managed to hit Xykon once or twice.

Is there a reason to think otherwise? I don't think Redcloak had any plans in advance to found a new goblin state in the ruins of Azure City, he decided to do that once the city was taken. If he never takes the city the thought probably never occurs to him, and the Plan requires him to go after the Gates, not set up new goblin nations.

Yeah, but the Azurites owe him a village with thirty years of interests so he probably would have razed the city anyway. And I don't see why it wouldn't occur to him to create Gobbotopia in the same way it occured to him in the comic.

[Vinyadan]

Yes, it's possible that he would destroy the city out of spite, especially since the army would become useless without that gate. Unless that happens before he has breached the walls, and he decides to keep the scrolls for later.

[Mike Havran]

If that actually happened, though, we'd be back in the situation mentioned earlier--Redcloak would be nowhere near the castle when it explodes, and even if Xykon was destroyed in the blast (which is uncertain--after all, O-Chul survived it, and he doesn't have a lich's damage reduction), he'd regenerate from his phylactery in a week and a half or less. Meanwhile, Redcloak would not see the point of pressing the attack when the main objective is gone, so would probably leave the field. Xykon and Redcloak would teleport to Girard's pyramid long before the Order got there, and everything would actually be worse for the good guys.

Not necessarilly, since Team Evil would have run into the whole Draketooth clan with their mojos active, and at least some of those had 8th level spells and such. In the meantime, the Order would have been together by the end of the next day.

Also, I would gamble on Redcloak pushing on even after the AC Gate is gone, because he wants AC to be destroyed utterly (let's assume that Xykon is destroyed in explosion, hobgoblins win and start to occupy in the time it takes Xykon to recover). After Xykon regenerates, Redcloak feeds him some bull and convince him to delay their departure (at this point Xykon isn't terribly ardent to finish up).

[Synesthesy]

Actually, now that I think about it, that raises an interesting question: Could Xykon come back from The Snarl? I men, that thing devours SOULS, not physical bodies, so...

But Xykon does have a soul in his body. It just happen to flee to the philactery instead of going to the appropriate afterlife when Xykon's die.

Spoiler

Show

In SoD Xykon tells it in Redcloak's face, putting clear that if Reddie destroy the philactery, he still didn't do anything to Xykon

[woweedd]

But Xykon does have a soul in his body. It just happen to flee to the philactery instead of going to the appropriate afterlife when Xykon's die.

Spoiler

Show

In SoD Xykon tells it in Redcloak's face, putting clear that if Reddie destroy the philactery, he still didn't do anything to Xykon

Yeah, that's what i'm thinking. Could The Snake cut out he middleman, obliterate Xykon's soul, thus not even giving him a chance to retreat to his phalthy?

[Vinyadan]

Yeah, that's what i'm thinking. Could The Snake cut out he middleman, obliterate Xykon's soul, thus not even giving him a chance to retreat to his phalthy?

I believe yes.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Spoiler: Redcloak and Gobbotopia

Show

First off, can we agree that "Gobbotopia" is kind of a dumb name for a nation?

Why would you think that?

That's the wrong question. The right question is, "Since when has the Gate been Redcloak's main objective?" The future capital of Gobbotopia is still there.

Yeah, but the Azurites owe him a village with thirty years of interests so he probably would have razed the city anyway.

Yes, it's possible that he would destroy the city out of spite, especially since the army would become useless without that gate.

Also, I would gamble on Redcloak pushing on even after the AC Gate is gone, because he wants AC to be destroyed utterly...

First off, when people are owed something (with or without interest), they generally expect to receive that something. Second off, Redcloak isn't Xykon; he'd value the long-term strategic value of the city more than whatever catharsis he'd get from smashing it. (Though if Xykon was in a really bad mood, he might value Xykon's catharsis over the strategic value.)

Yeah, I guess, but I always interpreted Wisdom as force of will.

"Force of will" and "forceful personality" are pretty much unrelated. "Force of will" is about being able to resist stuff; a "forceful personality" is one which, at bare minimum, makes an impression on people.
Another way to look at it: Charisma isn't just required for Diplomacy, it's also required for Intimidate. Miko has an intimidating flavor of Charisma, Elan has a diplomatic flavor, and Haley a deceptive flavor.


[spoiler=Jokes at Miko's expense]

I believe the main difference beetween Miko and the others trying to hold off the insane paladins, appart from her higher level, is that she doesn't seem like someone who would be trying to hold them off with maximum care for minimum damage...

"How dare you fail your saving throws? If you were as dedicated to the cause as I, you would have rolled better!"

But Xykon does have a soul in his body. It just happen to flee to the philactery instead of going to the appropriate afterlife when Xykon's die.

1. Phylactery
2. I'm pretty sure we've seen what happens when Xykon's body gets thrown into the Snarl, or at least close to it. I'd give him substantially above-average odds of coming back from that.

[MesiDoomstalker]

2. I'm pretty sure we've seen what happens when Xykon's body gets thrown into the Snarl, or at least close to it. I'd give him substantially above-average odds of coming back from that.

Actually, we see what happens when thrown at an extremely powerful Epic Sigil protecting the Gate that seals the rift to the Snarl. A few steps removed from the Snarl itself.

[Vinyadan]

Miko's Charisma goes into her beauty. Roy at least found her very attractive. Otherwise, she seemed to believe in following her path without looking left or right, so she didn't show any consideration for others beyond the strict requirements of killing bad dudes and saving good/neutral dudes. She probably could have been less grating if she had wanted to, and she could also have been more measured in her assumptions about people (she did have decent wisdom).