What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

[Fyraltari]

First off, can we agree that "Gobbotopia" is kind of a dumb name for a nation?

Why? "Place of the gob[lins]" covers the idea pretty well.

First off, when people are owed something (with or without interest), they generally expect to receive that something. Second off, Redcloak isn't Xykon; he'd value the long-term strategic value of the city more than whatever catharsis he'd get from smashing it. (Though if Xykon was in a really bad mood, he might value Xykon's catharsis over the strategic value.)

I was quoting this. Attacking Azure City always has a component of revenge to him.

[Peelee]

Why? "Place of the gob[lins]" covers the idea pretty well.

Agreed. It's fine. And in any event, it's formerly Azure City (because blue), near the Sunken Valley which the Order went to some time after the Wooden Forest and...

Gobbotopia is both a perfectly good name and fits the naming conventions of the comic.

[Fyraltari]

Agreed. It's fine. And in any event, it's formerly Azure City (because blue), near the Sunken Valley which the Order went to some time after the Wooden Forest and...

Gobbotopia is both a perfectly good name and fits the naming conventions of the comic.

I mean a great number of places are named after the people who live(d) there in the real world too.

[Resileaf]

I mean a gret number of places are named after the people who live(d) there in the real world too.

Such as the capital of Mexico, which is called Mexico city.
Seems plausible.

[Fyraltari]

Such as the capital of Mexico, which is called Mexico city.
Seems plausible.

Isn't Mexico named after the Mexica, or Aztec as they are called now?

[Peelee]

I mean a great number of places are named after the people who live(d) there in the real world too.

Like Francia, "Frankland?" Or Germania, "people who live over there?" The Romans were the best namers.

[zimmerwald1915]

Why? "Place of the gob[lins]" covers the idea pretty well.

It's not even an etymological mash-up; "kobalos" and "topos" are both ultimately Greek.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Isn't Mexico named after the Mexica, or Aztec as they are called now?

The Mexica where indeed one of four different peoples that united to create what eventually was called the Aztec Empire by some European ("Alexander von Humboldt", according to the wiki). What they called the Empire internally is not something I know.

Grey Wolf

[GreatWyrmGold]

Why? "Place of the gob[lins]" covers the idea pretty well.

I'm not saying the name doesn't work or isn't meaningful. It's just dumb. (Kinda like how Montana's state flag works and is meaningful, but is still dumb.) We don't call Europe "Caucasia-topia," do we?
As other people noted, there absolutely are lots of places named after the people who live there, but they're generally a bit more specific...and, well, their names sound cooler than "Gobbo". So sue me.

Agreed. It's fine. And in any event, it's formerly Azure City (because blue), near the Sunken Valley which the Order went to some time after the Wooden Forest and...

Gobbotopia is both a perfectly good name and fits the naming conventions of the comic.

Just because lots of the other names in the world are stupid doesn't mean Gobbotopia isn't.

I was quoting this. Attacking Azure City always has a component of revenge to him.

How does any of this contradict anything I said? Revenge doesn't need to be destroying whatever your target loves, you can just steal it.

[Fyraltari]

I'm not saying the name doesn't work or isn't meaningful. It's just dumb. (Kinda like how Montana's state flag works and is meaningful, but is still dumb.)

If it works and is meaningful, the only reason I can see for you to call it dumb is that you just don't like it. In which case fine, but just say so rather throwing "it's dumb" and excpeting people to agree with you. If you have more reasons to call it dumb, please do present them. Also I see nothing wrong with that flag either.

We don't call Europe "Caucasia-topia," do we?

Whay would we? Causcasus isn't even in Europe.

As other people noted, there absolutely are lots of places named after the people who live there, but they're generally a bit more specific...and, well, their names sound cooler than "Gobbo". So sue me.

Well that's strictly a matter of opinion, then.

How does any of this contradict anything I said? Revenge doesn't need to be destroying whatever your target loves, you can just steal it.

Because you were contradicting replies to the idea that Redcloak would not press on the attack if the Gate was destroyed early on. and Redcloak did destroy Azure City and used the remain to build Gobbotopia.

[zimmerwald1915]

Whay would we? Causcasus isn't even in Europe.

Depends on your definition. Some modern definitions place the area north of the Caucasus water line (that is, "Ciscaucasia" as opposed to "Transcaucasia," or politically, the Russian autonomous republics rather than the independent republics of Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Armenia) in Europe. Herodotus did not, however, include that area in Europe.

Also, the etymology of "Europe" is not clear. What is clear is that it was a geographic expression first, with a group of peoples named after it, rather than the other way around.

[Cazero]

Also, the etymology of "Europe" is not clear. What is clear is that it was a geographic expression first, with a group of peoples named after it, rather than the other way around.

I was going to say it was the name of a mythological woman first, but I got caught up actualy reading that article on wikipedia. Curse you, zim. You got me to educate myself.

[Ruck]

Agreed. It's fine. And in any event, it's formerly Azure City (because blue), near the Sunken Valley which the Order went to some time after the Wooden Forest and...

Gobbotopia is both a perfectly good name and fits the naming conventions of the comic.

If anything, the naming conventions of OotS are so generic that "Goblin City" might be expected. I think "Gobbotopia" sounds better, and also I'd bet Redcloak would want to invoke the idea of "Goblin Utopia."

[GreatWyrmGold]

If it works and is meaningful, the only reason I can see for you to call it dumb is that you just don't like it. In which case fine, but just say so rather throwing "it's dumb" and excpeting people to agree with you. If you have more reasons to call it dumb, please do present them. Also I see nothing wrong with that flag either.

Oh boy, I get to introduce someone to vexillology!
googles vexillology videos
Since we're talking about Montana's state flag, I'd like to first recommend this video about state flags. (It also mentions Montana's biggest flag sin at ~4:15, if you want an eight-second explanation of what's wrong with Montana's flag.) I'd also like to recommend this video about city flags, focusing on both the good (Chicago, some non-American cities) and the bad (most others, with extra focus on Milwauke). Oh, and then there's this animated bit of a CGP Grey podcast about Liberia's county flags, which doesn't really relate to Montana but it's special. There's plenty of other vexillology videos out there, and I'd recommend looking for some that look interesting to you.
...What were we talking about, again?
Oh, right, Gobbotopia. It's technically functional, the way the Montana state flag is. you can't look at that flag and not know it's Montana. But that doesn't mean it's well-designed; it's just clumsy. Same with Gobbotopia. It just says "We have goblins". There's so much else you could put into that name. It could emphasize/reference their union of goblinoid races, their reverence of The Dark One, their quest to be viewed as equals to other humanoid races. It could reference their economy, their culture, their history. But nope, just goblins.
Think about names in out world. New Zealand's name connects the country to territories in the Old World. The United States of America (and basically any other "United" name) references their history as a group of people who came together as one. "Gobbotopia"..."the people living here are goblins."
Part of the problem is that "goblin" is a genetic trait, while things like "German" or "French" are more cultural. The Federal Republic of Germany is a confederation of nations who united due to their shared German heritage; Gobbotopia is...a place where people live 'cuz they have green skin and pointy teeth?

Whay would we? Causcasus isn't even in Europe.

Because "White-topia" sounded too silly even for an argumentum ad absurdium. But we can go with that if you're caught up in the etymology. We could also call Africa "Black-topia".

Because you were contradicting replies to the idea that Redcloak would not press on the attack if the Gate was destroyed early on. and Redcloak did destroy Azure City and used the remain to build Gobbotopia.

1. I made it clear that I was specifically arguing that Redcloak wouldn't destroy Azure City, because he wanted to conquer it. How you went from that to "GWG is saying Redcloak wouldn't press the attack" is beyond me.
2. Wait, are you talking about the socially-constructed nation of Azure City or the masonry-constructed city of Azure City?

[Synesthesy]

The funny thing is that if you read Gobbotopia in Italian it means Utopia of Hunchbacked, that is kinda funny. And if you are in Turin, it means Juventus Utopia, but in a derogatory way, that is even more funny.

Ok, I go back in my pizza-cave.

[Peelee]

The funny thing is that if you read Gobbotopia in Italian it means Utopia of Hunchbacked, that is kinda funny. And if you are in Turin, it means Juventus Utopia, but in a derogatory way, that is even more funny.

Ok, I go back in my pizza-cave.

Does Italian Gobbotopia have good gobbogool?

[hroþila]

I don't think "Gobbotopia" is lacking in political narrative - "Goblinoid utopia" conveys quite a bit.

[zimmerwald1915]

Oh, right, Gobbotopia. It's technically functional, the way the Montana state flag is.

I get the aesthetic point, but comparing a name with a flag disturbs me on a deep level. We should compare flags with flags and names with names. When we do, Gobbotopia comes out far ahead of Montana in terms of flags. Its major sin is the lack of contrast between the background red (of the Crimson Mantle) and bugbear brown, but otherwise it's simple, clean and symbolic. It's also running about even in terms of name: goblin-country v. mountain-country.

Think about names in out world. New Zealand's name connects the country to territories in the Old World.

Which is nonsensical when you think about it. It's not like Captain Cook was Dutch. Incidentally, "Zeeland" just means "sea-land."

The United States of America (and basically any other "United" name) references their history as a group of people who came together as one.

You're comparing apples and oranges again. "America" is the demonym (and it just refers to some guy, not anything about the land or its peoples), while the appellation "United States" refers to the form of government - a federal republic. I'm not sure we actually know Gobbotopia's appellation. It might not have one. Redcloak refers to it as "the sovereign nation of Gobbotopia," but doesn't capitalize "sovereign" and "nation." If he had though, it wouldn't be unprecedented. Neither would not having an appellation.

Because "White-topia" sounded too silly even for an argumentum ad absurdium. But we can go with that if you're caught up in the etymology. We could also call Africa "Black-topia".

We could, indeed. The Greeks called it "Ethiopia," which means something like "country of the burned faces." And we still call a country "Ethiopia" today. But your argument is ahistorical. It's already been pointed out that the use of "Europe" as a place name precedes the use of "Europeans" as "peoples living in Europe." The European peoples were named after the concept of Europe, which distinguished them as well from peoples living outside Europe as any physical traits would (not least because Europe was the dumping-ground for peoples migrating west out of the Eurasian steppe, and ended up with highly varied peoples in any event).

Oh, and it probably shouldn't be forgotten that there is a country on Earth called "Greenland."

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't think "Gobbotopia" is lacking in political narrative - "Goblinoid utopia" conveys quite a bit.

That's not what "Gobbotopia" means, though. It means something like "goblin[oid]-place" or "goblin[oid]-country." Which says quite enough on its own, since other countries had hitherto considered goblin[oid] lands terra nullius.

[hroþila]

That's not what "Gobbotopia" means, though. It means something like "goblin[oid]-place" or "goblin[oid]-country." Which says quite enough on its own, since other countries had hitherto considered goblin[oid] lands terra nullius.

I disagree with that interpretation of the name. I don't think a direct derivation from topos is likely, and names in -topia that are meant to evoke "utopia" are not uncommon, especially in popular culture (cf. "Zootopia").

[Jasdoif]

"America" is the demonym (and it just refers to some guy, not anything about the land or its peoples), while the appellation "United States" refers to the form of government - a federal republic.

"Demonym" is the term denoting a person from a particular area; the demonym associated with the United States of America is "American".

[Ruck]

That's not what "Gobbotopia" means, though. It means something like "goblin[oid]-place" or "goblin[oid]-country." Which says quite enough on its own, since other countries had hitherto considered goblin[oid] lands terra nullius.

I disagree with that interpretation of the name. I don't think a direct derivation from topos is likely, and names in -topia that are meant to evoke "utopia" are not uncommon, especially in popular culture (cf. "Zootopia").

Yeah, same:

If anything, the naming conventions of OotS are so generic that "Goblin City" might be expected. I think "Gobbotopia" sounds better, and also I'd bet Redcloak would want to invoke the idea of "Goblin Utopia."

I know zimmerwald is the best kind of correct here, but I think Redcloak is deliberately invoking the idea of "Goblinoid Utopia" with the name.

[zimmerwald1915]

"Demonym" is the term denoting a person from a particular area; the demonym associated with the United States of America is "American".

Whence all this egg on my face?

[zimmerwald1915]

I disagree with that interpretation of the name. I don't think a direct derivation from topos is likely, and names in -topia that are meant to evoke "utopia" are not uncommon, especially in popular culture (cf. "Zootopia").

"Zootopia" at least incorporates the whole sound of "utopia" when spoken aloud. Another similar pun I've heard is "ewetopia." "Gobbotopia" is stretching it as far as sounds go. While Redcloak does refer to "utopia" in Start of Darkness, he distinguishes it from self-determined goblin society. It is a thing a self-determined goblin society might attain at some point - or fail at attaining. What he has is the former, and not the latter, though he of course hopes for utopia.

It doesn't much matter, though. A broadly similar point is made either way.

[B. Dandelion]

I always read "Gobbotopia" as "Goblin utopia" too. It struck me as being a quite deluded, grandiose name for a slave-holding theocracy situated directly underneath a giant gaping hole in the sky, but then it emphasizes both how precious it is to Redcloak and how willfully blind he is to things he doesn't want to see.

[Jasdoif]

On the original topic....

Hey everyone! I had a thought- Miko kept talking about how she was the strongest paladin. Could you imagine if she never arrived in the throne room EXACTLY when she did? Like, what if she was 5 minutes late, or 10 minutes earlier? Shojo might have lived long enough to control the whole city during the siege.

Now, I know it went the way it did because story demanded it, but has the Giant ever talked about what would happen if it went the other way? And if not, do you have any thoughts and what could have been?

A little, actually.

Spoiler: War and XPs Commentary

Show

The most directly relevant part is that with Shojo around, he'd know how best to deploy his units and the Order would be "little more than one more band of mercenaries" to him. Whereas Hinjo has no battlefield command experience, and the Order of the Stick has the highest-level characters on his side and they've already fought Xykon once; so they got a lot more autonomy from him.

In the more general sense, a lot is said about making the sides start off evenly matched, since a one-sided battle would be boring; and all the setup and temporary advantages that entailed.

---

In my estimation, the single adjustment of Miko not murdering Shojo is unlikely to result in an overall improvement; though it's in the realm of possibility.

• The living Sapphire Guard was never in a real position to stop Xykon. The addition of Miko and/or Hinjo in the throne room isn't going to change that.
• Nearly any positive effects from Shojo's leadership are going to improve the Azurite army. Xykon bypassed the Azurite army, while Redcloak didn't...which means these improvements have the side-effect of increasing the chance of Xykon getting destroyed by ghost-martyr-Soon and company before Redcloak gets anywhere near the throne room; and Redcloak's holy symbol is still Xykon's phylactery at this point in the story, so Xykon will be able to warn Redcloak as soon as he's destroyed. Whether Redcloak retreats or refocuses on securing the city before researching how to deal with the ghost martyrs, Team Evil is still an un-neutralized threat.

---

On the specific note of the nobles' forces:

The nobles of Azure City have small personal defense forces. Each noble has maybe 20 samurai and 100 men-at-arms, at most, plus some casters and maybe ninjas if they lean that way. They use them for self-defense and messing with other nobles. There may be a few dozen nobles total.

My estimate (from largely baseless guesses of what vague terms could mean) yields anywhere between six hundred to six thousand people, if Shojo (or Hinjo) could get them all on board.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I get the aesthetic point, but comparing a name with a flag disturbs me on a deep level. We should compare flags with flags and names with names.

I'm not comparing flags with names, I'm comparing the flaws of flags to the flaws of names. Both naming your goblin nation "Gobbotopia" and putting "Montana" on the Montana flag work to explain what you're about, but they lack the elegance or depth of names and flags that I consider to be better-designed.

Which is nonsensical when you think about it. It's not like Captain Cook was Dutch. Incidentally, "Zeeland" just means "sea-land."

All subjective meaning is nonsensical to the right outsider. After all...
googles New Zealand
...while Captain Cook gave New Zealand its English name, he was just Anglicizing its previously-extant Dutch name of Nova Zeelandia. It was, after all, originally discovered (for Europeans) by Dutch explorer Abel Tasman.

You're comparing apples and oranges again. "America" is the demonym (and it just refers to some guy, not anything about the land or its peoples), while the appellation "United States" refers to the form of government - a federal republic.

"Some guy"? Amerigo Vespucci might not be as big of a name as Christopher Columbus or Lewis and Clark today, but he was important in the process of Europeans discovering America; he was, after all, the guy who realized Columbus hadn't gotten to China. He ties directly to the history of the continent. That's why the continent was named America.
And while "United States" is technically just a description of the nation's government, it's also the name most people call the country. (At least more than just call it "America".) That's partly because "America" refers to the continent, but also because the USA's status as a bunch of states that are united was important to the values of its founders and their vision of the USA.
Neither Amerigo Vespucci nor the several states are individually critical to the modern identity of the USA, but they both play key roles in its history.

We could, indeed. The Greeks called it "Ethiopia," which means something like "country of the burned faces." And we still call a country "Ethiopia" today.

I hadn't heard about hat etymology before. The more you know!
The logic behind the name Ethiopia is the same sort of logic behind nations like Zimbabwe and Malawi; they harken back to the pre-colonial cultures of the region. The fact that Ethiopia is known to Ethiopians by the name given to the ancient Ethiopians by the ancient Greeks is unfortunate, but it's the name people know.

But your argument is ahistorical. It's already been pointed out that the use of "Europe" as a place name precedes the use of "Europeans" as "peoples living in Europe"...
Oh, and it probably shouldn't be forgotten that there is a country on Earth called "Greenland."

Point missed. This was never about Europe specifically, or Colorland specifically. This was about me finding the idea of naming a place after the race (as opposed to culture) living there odd.

[Vinyadan]

This was about me finding the idea of naming a place after the race (as opposed to culture) living there odd.

To be fair, the RL concept of race is so recent and so contradictory, that it's very hard to imagine naming a place after it.

But I don't think that Redcloak was thinking in terms of race. I think that, from his point of view, the Goblinoids need to join in Gobbotopia as a people. His dream is that of creating a Goblinoid nation on equal footing to other political entities; or, at least, that's step #1.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Fair enough.

I guess it's also a casualty of how D&D and other fantasy settings tend to conflate culture and race.

[Aquillion]

Nearly any positive effects from Shojo's leadership are going to improve the Azurite army. Xykon bypassed the Azurite army, while Redcloak didn't...which means these improvements have the side-effect of increasing the chance of Xykon getting destroyed by ghost-martyr-Soon and company before Redcloak gets anywhere near the throne room; and Redcloak's holy symbol is still Xykon's phylactery at this point in the story, so Xykon will be able to warn Redcloak as soon as he's destroyed. Whether Redcloak retreats or refocuses on securing the city before researching how to deal with the ghost martyrs, Team Evil is still an un-neutralized threat.

Maybe. On the other hand, with a stronger Azurite army, there is a nonzero chance that Redcloak is captured or killed - he doesn't have plot shields or anything. Keep in mind that Shojo probably knows or suspects that Redcloak carries Xykon's phylactery, too, based on Xykon's survival after Redcloak fled his previous defeat.