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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    As far as we know, they did work during the trial.

    Were any of the statements made by beings "in the chair" covered by the spells, proven to be false? Intentionally false - a lie, rather than a "mistake of fact"?
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-03-17 at 09:43 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #212
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Well, the statement by the being of pure Law and Good that it was, indeed, such a being was demonstrably false when it turned out to be Eugene casting an illusion.

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    It wasn't exactly in the Zone of Truth though. Wasn't the Zone put up after his appearance?

    First appearance of disguised Eugene:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0267.html

    First appearance of Chair of Truth:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-03-17 at 10:19 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Plus Hinjo had no idea it was not one that came through. Shojo himself never said anything.

    And technically, he did summon a being of pure good and law. It's just not one that came through. :P
    Last edited by Resileaf; 2019-03-17 at 10:26 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    As far as we know, they did work during the trial.
    Oh, sure. But Miko wouldn't have any way of knowing that, is the problem.
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  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Oh, sure. But Miko wouldn't have any way of knowing that, is the problem.
    Are you suggesting Miko would assume something was flawed because it did not conform to her preconceived expectations?
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  7. - Top - End - #217
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Didn’t Miko not really have any way of knowing quite the extent of what was faked and what was true? Obviously deciding to execute Shojo herself was going too far, but not trusting the order made sense to me.

  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Are you suggesting Miko would assume something was flawed because it did not conform to her preconceived expectations?
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    Didn’t Miko not really have any way of knowing quite the extent of what was faked and what was true? Obviously deciding to execute Shojo herself was going too far, but not trusting the order made sense to me.
    Yeah, that's my point. One doesn't have to posit some cartoonishly unreasonable degree of suspicion for Miko to want the Order and/or Shojo arrested on the basis of available information.
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  9. - Top - End - #219
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    Didn’t Miko not really have any way of knowing quite the extent of what was faked and what was true? Obviously deciding to execute Shojo herself was going too far, but not trusting the order made sense to me.
    She didn't have any way of knowing if the laws were corrupt, because a corrupt book of laws could be made to look exactly like a good one to Miko's eyes.
    I don't have any way of knowing if the world is a simulation, because a simulation could be made to look exactly like a real world.
    The question Miko should have asked is if there was enough reason to doubt the validity of the law and whatnot. But she's Miko, so she didn't.
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Well based on what she overheard it was obvious that Shojo was manipulating the legal system to collaborate with the order behind the paladins’ backs, it just wasn’t clear the extent to which it was occurring or what had/hadn’t been lied about. Executing Shojo was going too far, but I think distrusting the order made sense.

  11. - Top - End - #221
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    She didn't have any way of knowing if the laws were corrupt, because a corrupt book of laws could be made to look exactly like a good one to Miko's eyes.
    I would strongly suspect that Azurite law does not make specific provision for rigging the outcome of a trial and springing convicted murderers from prison. And I could easily imagine that Miko has memorised every regulation and bylaw currently in force in Azure City, including those she doesn't like. ("Floggings for pickpockets!? Far too lenient in my view.")
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  12. - Top - End - #222
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    I would strongly suspect that Azurite law does not make specific provision for rigging the outcome of a trial and springing convicted murderers from prison.
    Yes, that trial which Shojo ran was obviously corrupt. She has no good reason to assume that the court system is so corrupt that basically the same thing would happen with Hinjo running the show.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    I would strongly suspect that Azurite law does not make specific provision for rigging the outcome of a trial and springing convicted murderers from prison.
    I'd be surprised if it wasn't covered under a litany of other laws (obstruction of justice is the most obvious one right off the bat, aiding and abetting, accessories after the fact, I'm sure an actual lawyer could point out other very common laws most states employ).
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    And I could easily imagine that Miko has memorised every regulation and bylaw currently in force in Azure City, including those she doesn't like.
    I know it's a fantasy world where thousand-lb dragons fly and shoot fire from their mouths while casting magical spells, but the lines gotta be drawn somewhere. And a cop (even an elite one backed by the gods) knowing all criminal laws is miles past wherever that line is drawn.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-03-17 at 06:09 PM.
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  14. - Top - End - #224
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    @ Pelee: What's the name of the cop in Disc world who remembers every law in the book?
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  15. - Top - End - #225
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    @ Pelee: What's the name of the cop in Disc world who remembers every law in the book?
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  16. - Top - End - #226
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    @ Pelee: What's the name of the cop in Disc world who remembers every law in the book?
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  17. - Top - End - #227
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Yes, that trial which Shojo ran was obviously corrupt. She has no good reason to assume that the court system is so corrupt that basically the same thing would happen with Hinjo running the show.
    If Hinjo is running the show, this implies that Shojo has already been arrested and the Order have been detained for (re)trial. This particular debate was about whether arresting Shojo and the Order would be justified in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I'd be surprised if it wasn't covered under a litany of other laws (obstruction of justice is the most obvious one right off the bat, aiding and abetting, accessories after the fact, I'm sure an actual lawyer could point out other very common laws most states employ).
    GreatWyrm seemed to be trying to argue that Miko had no way of distinguishing between corrupt and non-corrupt laws, and I was simply pointing out that Azurite law almost certainly didn't make specific exceptions for... all the stuff you've mentioned. In other words, Shojo's criminality was totally obvious by then, regardless of how the laws worked.

    I know it's a fantasy world where thousand-lb dragons fly and shoot fire from their mouths while casting magical spells, but the lines gotta be drawn somewhere. And a cop (even an elite one backed by the gods) knowing all criminal laws is miles past wherever that line is drawn.
    Why? I know OOTS is an anachronistic mishmash, but the law codes of ancient societies weren't all that complicated. (Even the english translation of the tang code is only a hundred pages or so, excluding modern commentary and appendices.) Most holy books are much meatier, and I expect Miko knew hers by heart.
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  18. - Top - End - #228
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Given that Shojo did not fake a trial under Azurite law at all, but rather independently in his position as head of the Sapphire Guard, its unlikely that Azurite law has anything at all to say about his actions.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    GreatWyrm seemed to be trying to argue that Miko had no way of distinguishing between corrupt and non-corrupt laws, and I was simply pointing out that Azurite law almost certainly didn't make specific exceptions for... all the stuff you've mentioned. In other words, Shojo's criminality was totally obvious by then, regardless of how the laws worked.
    I was with you until the last sentence. Criminality is by definition regarding how the laws work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Given that Shojo did not fake a trial under Azurite law at all, but rather independently in his position as head of the Sapphire Guard, its unlikely that Azurite law has anything at all to say about his actions.
    Kidnapping, if Azurite law does not consider the Sapphire Guard a legal authority with international jurisdiction, and obstruction of justice et al if Azurite law does. Probably fraud, depending on how they define it, misuse of public funds may be a thing there, and hell, throwing more charges than are necessarily warranted against the wall to see what sticks is not an uncommon tactic.
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  20. - Top - End - #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I was with you until the last sentence. Criminality is by definition regarding how the laws work.
    Okay, but I just mean it's highly unlikely that Shojo had distorted his own code of laws to the point where what he was caught doing was actually legal.

    Kidnapping, if Azurite law does not consider the Sapphire Guard a legal authority with international jurisdiction, and obstruction of justice et al if Azurite law does. Probably fraud, depending on how they define it, misuse of public funds may be a thing there, and hell, throwing more charges than are necessarily warranted against the wall to see what sticks is not an uncommon tactic.
    ...Actually, Keltest may have a point. If arresting the Order in the first place was done on sketchy legal grounds, then the paladins can't reasonably throw those charges at Shojo in a secular Azurite court without also implicating themselves in the whole affair. Belkar's sentencing was based on the murder he committed, which is presumably recognised as criminal independently of anything the Guard were up to, but anything related to the Order's trial is something the paladins can't really explain to the city's magistrates without raising a bunch of other awkward questions.
    Last edited by Lacuna Caster; 2019-03-17 at 08:57 PM.
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  21. - Top - End - #231
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Okay, but I just mean it's highly unlikely that Shojo had distorted his own code of laws to the point where what he was caught doing was actually legal.
    Oh, totally agree on that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    ...Actually, Keltest may have a point here. If arresting in the Order in the first place was done on sketchy legal grounds, then the paladins can't reasonably throw those charges at Shojo in an Azurite court without implicating themselves in the whole affair.
    Sure they can; to turn around how he put it, Shojo is the leader of the Sapphire Guard, but separately the Lord of the City. Even if both are legally authorized, because he wears two hats he can be caught up in conflict of interest which could lead to being in an actionable position without the SG being tethered along.
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  22. - Top - End - #232
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Sure they can; to turn around how he put it, Shojo is the leader of the Sapphire Guard, but separately the Lord of the City. Even if both are legally authorized, because he wears two hats he can be caught up in conflict of interest which could lead to being in an actionable position without the SG being tethered along.
    The positions and organisations themselves may be legally authorised (though if the Guard's existence itself is supposed to be closely hidden, I'm not clear on how.) The question is whether Shojo committed some manner of crime himself by ordering his underling/s to (potentially) violate national boundaries in pursuit of suspects whose alleged crimes can't actually be explained without revealing state secrets. And if he did, Miko would be an accessory to the crime.
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  23. - Top - End - #233
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Kidnapping, if Azurite law does not consider the Sapphire Guard a legal authority with international jurisdiction, and obstruction of justice et al if Azurite law does. Probably fraud, depending on how they define it, misuse of public funds may be a thing there, and hell, throwing more charges than are necessarily warranted against the wall to see what sticks is not an uncommon tactic.
    Medieval lords were frequently given broad or total leeway when it came to law enforcement. I doubt that arresting foreign agents for a day, then releasing them after clearing them of charges would be illegal.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Medieval lords were frequently given broad or total leeway when it came to law enforcement. I doubt that arresting foreign agents for a day, then releasing them after clearing them of charges would be illegal.
    They also had rampant diseases and lacked anything closely resembling modern metropolises. Stickworld is fun.
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  25. - Top - End - #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    They also had rampant diseases and lacked anything closely resembling modern metropolises. Stickworld is fun.
    Whats your point? No, stickworld is not a perfect 1:1 match for medieval Asian governments, but the alternative is to just throw our hands up and scream that theres nothing at all we can do here to come to any conclusion.

    If nothing else, if it was illegal for Shojo to arrest the Order under Azurite law, then it would also be illegal to arrest Shojo under Azurite law, prior to having found him guilty at a trial.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  26. - Top - End - #236
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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    If nothing else, if it was illegal for Shojo to arrest the Order under Azurite law, then it would also be illegal to arrest Shojo under Azurite law, prior to having found him guilty at a trial.
    That's.... that's really not how arrests work. Not to mention a false equivalence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    That's.... that's really not how arrests work. Not to mention a false equivalence.
    Hey, youre the one who said that the Order's arrest would be kidnapping.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Hey, youre the one who said that the Order's arrest would be kidnapping.
    Could, not would. And that doesn't equate to needing to be convicted before being arrested in any event.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Could, not would. And that doesn't equate to needing to be convicted before being arrested in any event.
    But then whats illegitimate about the Order's arrest, in the eyes of the law?
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    But then whats illegitimate about the Order's arrest, in the eyes of the law?
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Kidnapping, if Azurite law does not consider the Sapphire Guard a legal authority with international jurisdiction, and obstruction of justice et al if Azurite law does.
    Also, should I be concerned that you're taking hypothetical examples as me stating things are set in stone?
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