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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazero View Post
    Casters seem to each have their personnal color when it comes to lightshow-y magic.
    It might also be the darker underground lighting.
    Gods don't. Quiddity and all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    You do realize, you've just acknowledged you're clumsily attempting to go after me, right?
    Yes, I do. And in fact I did when I typed that answer, that was the point of it. Because I like to poke fun at myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    FANTASTIC! OotS-ish even in the punchline.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    This is why I love you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Fyraltari pretty much nailed it.
    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    Fyraltari basically end the thread.

    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    Gehm's corollary to Clarke's Third Law


    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    For people who say "they're just words, toughen up," y'all seem to have very strong reactions to a bunch of words on a forum and webcomic.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    They do not have an assembly of high level clerics and guards of different deities all bound to a neutrality non-aggression pact.

    Sounds like a lot less controlled if you ask me, but I guess saying "your assumption is wrong" trumps the comic itself.
    They do have an assembly of cranky old dwarves and high level guards of different clans all bound to a neutrality non-aggression pact.

    From a security perspective, it sounds like the dwarven council is better secured than the Godsmoot since they don't need to rely on a secret location to keep interlopers at bay.
    Yes, I am slightly egomaniac. Why didn't you ask?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazero View Post
    They do have an assembly of cranky old dwarves and high level guards of different clans all bound to a neutrality non-aggression pact.
    Source?

    From a security perspective, it sounds like the dwarven council is better secured than the Godsmoot since they don't need to rely on a secret location to keep interlopers at bay.
    ....Yeeeeah, that's stretching it. By a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    And she clearly expected it to be over with Hermod's vote.
    Last week Hel had no Clergy. It's only through sheer luck that she got a Cleric capable of representing her, and that guy is supposed to be stuck at the Moot. Dvalin has no reason to assume she she managed to sneak some people to Firmament.
    Wasn't the assumption that the gods don't know what happened at the Godsmoot?
    Then Dvalin has no way of knowing how many followers Hel actually has.
    For all he knows she could have dozens more of "surprise clerics" around... which in fact she has.

    Being prepared for something is what expecting it means. You brought up that this was "unexpected" as a reason for why it would be less well defended, but we know this is a semi-regular occurence, so there is no reason to assumet they don't have their usual defenses for it.
    We know this voting comes unexpected as the grandma herself complains about the suddeness of the whole thing, so we actually have an indication that their defenses could not be as good as usual.
    And even so the amount of defense firepower is in no way comparable to the Godsmoot. If the vampires tried to pull the stunt they're doing here at the actual Godsmoot they'd be blown to smithereens.

    No matter how you slice it, this council is way less defended.
    Last edited by Ganbatte; 2019-02-11 at 05:55 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    Source?
    ...The council of clans. As in several clans. Assembling their elders. And as we can clearly seen in the comic, they show up with bodyguards and the place is secured with guards and magic, wich means they usualy are at each other's throats and/or ready to fight outside interference, wich sort of demand high level NPCs.

    ....Yeeeeah, that's stretching it. By a lot.
    Not at all. That's assuming they have their best fighters, many spellcasters and a crapton of permanent spells accumulated over centuries, all to defend the building in wich the single most important assembly of the country shows up on a regular basis.
    Yes, I am slightly egomaniac. Why didn't you ask?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    Wasn't the assumption that the gods don't know what happened at the Godsmoot?
    Yes. That's my point, so Dvalin has seen Hel screaming in impotent rage at Hermod's refusal to go along with her plan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    Then Dvalin has no way of knowing how many followers Hel actually has.
    My point again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    For all he knows she could have dozens more of "surprise clerics" around... which in fact she has.
    Yes. So what do you think he will assume? That the goddess who's been struggling for millenia to have a single high-level Cleric has had a lucky break and managed to get one? Or that she managed to get a whole bunch?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    We know this voting comes unexpected as the grandma herself complains about the suddeness of the whole thing,
    Just like the Godsmoot and yet they were able to mobilizze in time. There only problem was that the Creed had to spend all of its magic on making the cathedral which is why they were depleted. Not an issue here.

    [QUOTE=Ganbatte;23700804]so we actually have an indication that their defenses could not be as good as usual.
    And we have no indictaion that they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    And even so the amount of defense firepower is in no way comparable to the Godsmoot. If the vampires tried to pull the stunt they're doing here at the actual Godsmoot they'd be blown to smithereens.
    Aaand, that's not what they seem to be doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    No matter how you slice it, this council is way less defended.
    [citation needed]
    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    FANTASTIC! OotS-ish even in the punchline.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    This is why I love you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Fyraltari pretty much nailed it.
    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    Fyraltari basically end the thread.

    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    Gehm's corollary to Clarke's Third Law


    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    For people who say "they're just words, toughen up," y'all seem to have very strong reactions to a bunch of words on a forum and webcomic.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazero View Post
    ...The council of clans. As in several clans. Assembling their elders. And as we can clearly seen in the comic, they show up with bodyguards and the place is secured with guards and magic, wich means they usualy are at each other's throats and/or ready to fight outside interference, wich sort of demand high level NPCs.
    Ah, so no source, just theory.
    We have no way to know if they'd be at each other throats nor that those guards are high-level nor that they're bound to the same "one breaks the rule everyone attacks him" neutrality pact the Godsmoot had.

    Not at all. That's assuming they have their best fighters, many spellcasters and a crapton of permanent spells accumulated over centuries, all to defend the building in wich the single most important assembly of the country shows up on a regular basis.
    Which again is no proof that's better than the Godsmoot, assuming this is correct, which may be not.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Spanish_Paladin View Post
    I tought that if you resist dominate you can't be dominated again by the same vampire in a period of time. If they can try every turn the ability is very overpowered.
    Nope, it's at will, no cooldown period between attempts. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm
    And yes, they are very strong. There's a reason the level adjustment is +8.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Yes. So what do you think he will assume? That the goddess who's been struggling for millenia to have a single high-level Cleric has had a lucky break and managed to get one? Or that she managed to get a whole bunch?
    "If the evil Hel managed to acquire such a high level follower to cast Proxy there's no reason not to suspect her also having more of lesser levels, if not equal. Better be careful".

    Is what any sane person, player or DM would think here.

    Just like the Godsmoot and yet they were able to mobilizze in time. There only problem was that the Creed had to spend all of its magic on making the cathedral which is why they were depleted. Not an issue here.
    Wrong. The Godsmoot was planned in advance, more anyway than this surprise Council voting.

    And we have no indictaion that they are.
    Well at least you admit it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Aaand, that's not what they seem to be doing.

    [citation needed]
    ...Dude, it's literally in this very strip.

    They're dominating the guards and revealing themselves to the voters and their bodyguards clearly threatening and intending to attack.

    Why didn't they pull this at the main event? Because if they tried attacking the voters at the Godsmoot they would've been killed instantly by the assembly of high level clerics and bodyguards.

    It's simple logic, the fact they're able to cross the line here means the Godsmoot was better defended regarding the voting process.
    Last edited by Ganbatte; 2019-02-11 at 06:40 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by nmphuong91 View Post
    Dvalin: When I was a mortal monarch, I swore an oath to obey the will of the Council on issues affecting all the clans.
    Meaning, he made his own decision on many lesser issues concern a province/an aspect of society (military, education v.v)/management (military force allocation). He obey the Council on bigger question (to war or not to war). Kinda like President vs Senate, I guess.
    Except wouldn't a decision involving only one province or some such be a decision of that province and not the King or the Council? And wouldn't broad policies like education affect all the clans, thereby causing him to defer to the Council anyway? That really only seems to leave him as essentially comander in chief of military operations, in which case I'd expect his title to be General (with various things like "Lord High" added on for extra pomp and circumstance).

    As for President vs. Senate, I'm not going to debate a particular system here (forum rules and whatnot), but the broader point of such systems generally is that each can override the other in specific ways, thereby keeping either from running amok. (Again, specific IRL examples are probably not forum-kosher.)

    The more I think about it, the more I become convinced that he just might have been picked by the Council precisely because he's devoted to keeping the letter of his promises, no matter how absurd that gets. He and Frederick from The Pirates of Penzance should start a support group.

    I don't think gaining a Divine Rank confers any ability score bonuses, so it's quite possible he's no smarter than a mortal. And if he was a particularly stupid or naive mortal.....

    Yeah, this is getting silly and speculative, but I just think that, without further information, the simple explanation that he's just that stupid makes a lot more sense than anything else.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    "If the evil Hel managed to acquire such a high level follower to cast Proxy there's no reason not to suspect her also having more of lesser levels, if not equal. Better be careful".

    Is what any sane person, player or DM would think here.
    Lesser levels that she would have managed to sneak away into the heart of a Dwarven City when that was not her original plan? Yeah no, that's what an extremely cautious person would suspect, not "any sane person".
    And yes there are reasons since only one of her Clerics managed to reach that level in the first place.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    Wrong. The Godsmoot was planned in advance, more anyway than this surprise Council voting.
    Three days advance for people who have to come from all over a continent to a secret moutain peak vs two for people who have to come from all over one nation to a major city. I'd call that pretty even and more than enough time to prepare what they need.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    Well at least you admit it.
    And I'm not the one complaining.
    You're the one assuming they are without evidence.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    ...Dude, it's literally in this very strip.

    They're dominating the guards and revealing themselves to the voters and their bodyguards clearly threatening and intending to attack.

    Why didn't they pull this at the main event? Because if they tried attacking the voters at the Godsmoot they would've been killed instantly by the assembly of high level clerics and bodyguards.

    It's simple basic logic, the mere proof that they're able to cross the line here means the Godsmoot was better defended regarding the voting process.
    Sorry I misread your previous post. My bad.
    So to adress your "if they had pulled the same stunt at the Godsmoot they'd be blown to smithereen" claim my answer is this:

    We don't now what they are pulling here, yet. Not in details at least.
    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    FANTASTIC! OotS-ish even in the punchline.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    This is why I love you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Fyraltari pretty much nailed it.
    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    Fyraltari basically end the thread.

    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    Gehm's corollary to Clarke's Third Law


    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    For people who say "they're just words, toughen up," y'all seem to have very strong reactions to a bunch of words on a forum and webcomic.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Lesser levels that she would have managed to sneak away into the heart of a Dwarven City when that was not her original plan? Yeah no, that's what an extremely cautious person would suspect, not "any sane person".
    And yes there are reasons since only one of her Clerics managed to reach that level in the first place.
    A trick that can be pulled once can be pulled again. No reason to be dumb especially with such high stakes, I would expect a lawful good demigod to be at least that savy towards evil.

    Three days advance for people who have to come from all over a continent to a secret moutain peak vs two for people who have to come from all over one nation to a major city. I'd call that pretty even and more than enough time to prepare what they need.
    Fair point.

    And I'm not the one complaining.
    You're the one assuming they are without evidence.
    Unfair point. My evidence is the sudden need of setting up the defenses for a voting council nobody expected, while the Godsmoot might well have been preplanned months in advance even if put in action in just three days.

    Sorry I misread your previous post. My bad.
    So to adress your "if they had pulled the same stunt at the Godsmoot they'd be blown to smithereen" claim my answer is this:

    We don't now what they are pulling here, yet. Not in details at least.
    Well they do seem fairly threatening. Ending the grandma's pulse and all, sneaking into extremely private chambers without invitation.
    I just can't see Durkula and his army daring to threaten the original group of voters like that, which would imply they had a stronger deterrent(defenses) to prevent it.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    So the smoke in the first panel. What's the over under that it isn't actually smoke but more vampires moving in?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Turtle View Post
    So the smoke in the first panel. What's the over under that it isn't actually smoke but more vampires moving in?
    I see five different stream going into two different sides of a valley of some sort. We have seen a lot of those earlier on.
    They are the wrong color with no eyes and the vampires were already inside the mountain.
    Also a city naturally produces a lot of smoke (needs heating and such).

    So I am going to say it very unlikely that is the vampires.
    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    FANTASTIC! OotS-ish even in the punchline.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    This is why I love you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Fyraltari pretty much nailed it.
    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    Fyraltari basically end the thread.

    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    Gehm's corollary to Clarke's Third Law


    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    For people who say "they're just words, toughen up," y'all seem to have very strong reactions to a bunch of words on a forum and webcomic.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Turtle View Post
    So the smoke in the first panel. What's the over under that it isn't actually smoke but more vampires moving in?
    Zero percent chance. Unless the Vampires went back up to the surface for some reason and are now returning.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Nope, it's at will, no cooldown period between attempts. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm
    And yes, they are very strong. There's a reason the level adjustment is +8.
    Ok, the rules confirms what you said. I still think it is unnecessarily powerful, as a DM i would never try to dominate repeatedly the same character if he/she somehow resisted it, but it is my opinion.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Spanish_Paladin View Post
    Oh, come on!!.. There is no one here with a decent will save??
    When I read this I thought you were referring to the forum not the hall of the council of elders.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Humanist View Post
    When I read this I thought you were referring to the forum not the hall of the council of elders.
    I am not that funny xD

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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Turtle View Post
    So the smoke in the first panel. What's the over under that it isn't actually smoke but more vampires moving in?
    Seems unlikely; you can see the smokestacks the smoke is rising from.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    But if instead of doing that the player just walks up to a rival and punches them in the face, and it works, I'm going to be puzzled that the story is telling me that it was legal.
    Not a serious comment, but more that this made me laugh and I want to share the train of thought:

    "If I was playing a game of which I didn't know the rules and someone who I'd seen reading the rulebook began to beat up the other players I'd either assume that just because they read the rules they're not necessarily following them, OR... this game is a lot more exciting than I thought."

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    There are non-lawful rules?
    I believe they're called guidelines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spanish_Paladin View Post
    I tought that if you resist dominate you can't be dominated again by the same vampire in a period of time. If they can try every turn the ability is very overpowered.
    Have I ever mentioned how I dislike vampires for having the most annoying abilities?

    On another note, having thought about this entire thing from my own perspective...

    The gods seem to be perfectly capable of communicating with each other, so maybe it would have been an interesting thought on Durkon's side to tell ask Thor to tell Dvalin that the Council is in danger of being Dominated so their vote could be invalid?

    Since that's not what happened I'm guessing that a) Dvalin doesn't care if they're dominated (too Lawful, will obey the vote no matter what), b) some godly rule prevents Thor from warning Dvalin about this (no wonder Thor seems so frustrated), c) for some reason or another Thor thought of this but decided against it (who knows?), or d) Durkon was so busy with the idea of getting Thor to help him defeat the remaining vampires (and being told the truth of reality) that he forgot to think about what Thor could do to help Dvalin twart Hel's plans.

    On ANOTHER note, there might be a good reason for the OotS to break the bridge leading to the Council Whachamacallit.

    IF there is a rule which says that a certain amount of council members have to be present for the vote, and IF not enough council members are present yet, breaking the bridge would delay the vote because the council members still trying to get inside the building either need to wait or use another path.

    Of course if the OotS is in the position to break the bridge they've got better things to break (probably). Like the vampires.
    Last edited by Worldsong; 2019-02-11 at 07:59 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    If the Elders are under the mental control of other entities, doesn't that make Dvalin's obligation invalid? I mean, it's not really them making the decision of which way to vote, so it's not their true will.

    I mean, even going by the letter of the law, it's the position of Clan Elder that matters, rather than the specific bodies of the people holding those roles. Dvalin said he swore an oath to, "obey the will of the Council on issues affecting all the clans". Not to "obey the Council", but to obey the will of the Council.

    By the letter of the law, the Council of Clans is distinct from the specific group of dwarves who compose the current Council of Clans, the way that, in set theory, "the set" is distinct from "the elements in the set", or, in other words, the way a name is different from a person, or the way a list is different from the items on said list.

    The vampires may compromise the dwarves who compose the Council, but that's not the same as hijacking the Council. The vampires do not have the right to that role the way they had the right to the role of High Priest of Hel.

    To obey the true will of the Council requires that the Council's will be true. If my cranky Lawful ramblings and errant half-baked speculation are correct, then Dvalin is obligated to ignore the will of any compromised Council. Dvalin is only obligated to vote "Yes" if a legitimate Council of Elders votes of its own free will to end the world. Therefore, the logical thing for the OOTS to do is to make sure that the Vampires succeed in taking over the Council. Or, even better, to murder the entire Council and all the dwarves so that there is no more council, and then the vote can never take place. Or, even better, murder everybody so that there can be no more voting, ever. Or, if you want to be truly thorough about preventing such votes, release the snarl and end everything so that nobody can ever vote to end the world. Muahahahhaaaaa! Set theory is beautiful!

    -NihhusHuotAliro, having fun with a sled on the slippery slopes.

    NOTE: This entire post was meant to be a weird prank, and a reference to how Georg Cantor went bonkers later in life.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Nope, it's at will, no cooldown period between attempts. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm
    And yes, they are very strong. There's a reason the level adjustment is +8.
    To expand on this...

    Domination and Magic Jar are 5th level spells, and both can potentially be spammed. If you do not have magical spells like Protection from Evil or Magic Circle versus Evil handy, that can very easily be a TPK.

    That was Durkon's conundrum when fighting Malack. Even though he could more than hold his own in a fair fight, it was not a fair fight; and he simply lacked the spells to even to playing field, even if his allies arrived to save him.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Well, it's not like there would have been much of a precedent to reasonably expect this.

    I do find it unlikely that the council won't take precautions after this whole thing's over for future votes, though.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Ok, I know the dwarf king said hed ask the clans to vote on stuff, but surely it doesnt count if everyone is dominated right? Thats just silly. The shenanigans arent exactly subtle here, how is this supposed to count?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    People are saying it would be too difficult to ward all the voters from all kinds of magical and non-magical coercion (and maybe that's true), but I don't see why that would be necessary to protect the vote from domination anyway. All that's really needed is for Dvalin to have a rule that says "If anyone can be shown to be under the effects of magical coercion or is otherwise unable to cast a vote of their own free will, the vote must be retaken," which should be a given in any democratic system, and then to watch to make sure things go smoothly.

    Sometimes things might be ambiguous- it's not always easy to determine if someone's being blackmailed or influenced or whatever, and not every case of manipulation can be spotted- but that shouldn't mean you stop trying! And it certainly shouldn't mean that something as clear-cut as being dominated should just be ignored.

    The most difficult part then is for Dvalin to figure out whether the vote has been tampered with or not. But a bunch of vampires misting around and dominating everyone is pretty obvious, as far as things go. As a demi-god, he must have SOME way of watching what's going on with his followers. If the devas can keep files on Roy's entire life, Dvalin should be able to watch one extremely important vote.

    Even if Dvalin has no reason to suspect Hel's trying to tamper the vote (which is pretty questionable- everyone else worked it out), he should still check. You can't always predict who will try to change a vote but that doesn't mean it's unlikely to happen, especially not with something as important as this. We don't stop paying attention to our elections just because we aren't currently aware of someone specific trying to manipulate it.

    Honestly, tampering with the vote is predictable, and Dvalin should be much more wary of it. I can't name specifics on the forum, but attempts to influence votes happen all the time in the real world.
    Last edited by Potatopeelerkin; 2019-02-11 at 08:43 PM.
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  25. - Top - End - #325
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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    Except wouldn't a decision involving only one province or some such be a decision of that province and not the King or the Council? And wouldn't broad policies like education affect all the clans, thereby causing him to defer to the Council anyway? That really only seems to leave him as essentially comander in chief of military operations, in which case I'd expect his title to be General (with various things like "Lord High" added on for extra pomp and circumstance).

    As for President vs. Senate, I'm not going to debate a particular system here (forum rules and whatnot), but the broader point of such systems generally is that each can override the other in specific ways, thereby keeping either from running amok. (Again, specific IRL examples are probably not forum-kosher.)

    The more I think about it, the more I become convinced that he just might have been picked by the Council precisely because he's devoted to keeping the letter of his promises, no matter how absurd that gets. He and Frederick from The Pirates of Penzance should start a support group.

    I don't think gaining a Divine Rank confers any ability score bonuses, so it's quite possible he's no smarter than a mortal. And if he was a particularly stupid or naive mortal.....

    Yeah, this is getting silly and speculative, but I just think that, without further information, the simple explanation that he's just that stupid makes a lot more sense than anything else.
    Then, may be matter concern two province. Possibly mediating over a feud between two major clan from two province.
    About education, there are many smaller stuff that does not necessary "affecting all the clans". An issue of "Should I grant some bonus gp to teacher that can teach home ed to encourage teaching home ed as extra curriculum?" only affecting some young children and teacher and not all the clans.
    And indeed, in human history, King often function as the commander-in-chief. And also yes, his title is not General reflecting that he has other duty than just military.
    Also, you forgot the bit about budget/treasury management.

    President vs Senate is just an example. Yes, the point of such system is to keep the man in charge in check. That mean, he can allocate fund here and there, allocate army here and there, build a new castle here, a new fort there (with payment from treasury and manpower from the civilian), grant Temple of Thor a piece of land so they can build a new temple over there. But not go to war with the elf without consulting the Council. And I think that is wise, not stupid, since "matter affecting all the clans" seems bigger than what one man can handle. Giving a King unlimited power to declare war (and many similar decision) seems like a horrible idea to me.

    Also, the Council system also serve to placate major clans. In a kingdom formed by various clan, a careless decision may anger many major clan which can result in them pulling the "I quit" card, and possibly break the kingdom in a major civil war.
    Last edited by nmphuong91; 2019-02-11 at 10:13 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #326
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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Potatopeelerkin View Post
    All that's really needed is for Dvalin to have a rule that says "If anyone can be shown to be under the effects of magical coercion or is otherwise unable to cast a vote of their own free will, the vote must be retaken," which should be a given in any democratic system, and then to watch to make sure things go smoothly.
    So...one person can get a vote, even a unanimous vote, thrown out with a single spell? Cast charm person on someone voting, then reveal that "someone" has cast a spell to interfere with their vote?

    Now, I was thinking that delaying the proceedings to keep the high priests contained at the Godsmoot could be part of a strategy (backup or otherwise), in which case the ruse being detected wouldn't necessarily be a problem; with this sort of "enchanter's filibuster" rule, the ruse being detected would be outright advantageous.
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2019-02-11 at 10:54 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #327
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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    What doesn't make as much sense is why Dvalin's meeting chamber is in Firmament.

    Grey Wolf
    High Priestess Rubyrock already told us that Firmament was the original capital. So the council meets here because it's tradition, similar to how French kings had to be crowned in Reims (which caused no end of trouble to...Charles VII, wasn't it?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    a lawful good demigod
    Citation needed. We have ample proof Dvalin is Lawful unto something close to the nth degree, but to the best of my recollection not a jot or tittle about his Goodness.

    Also, they aren't threatening the elder. She's saying that she'd take any excuse to shirk her duty 'in a heartbeat' (or as we'd say, in a second), and the vampire is telling her he's got a deal for her. The scheme seems to be a variant of jury packing.

  28. - Top - End - #328
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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    Err... Hel's interference would mean that's no longer the will of the council. That's the point.
    Irrelevant. As per his oath, he must adhere to the decision of the Council of Elders.

    Look, I think Hel has a better grasp of the concept than you do. If she thinks the plan can succeed, then it can.
    Last edited by Giggling Ghast; 2019-02-11 at 11:22 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #329
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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    So...one person can get a vote, even a unanimous vote, thrown out with a single spell? Cast charm person on someone voting, then reveal that "someone" has cast a spell to interfere with their vote?
    You know what I mean. I'm not about to write a massive legal document on the forums about where and how this rule should be used and all the specific cases that it should and shouldn't apply to, but that's no reason for Dvalin not to be able to. We manage to address votes under compulsion in real life without that particular issue coming up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggling Ghast View Post
    Irrelevant. As part of his oath, he must follow the decision of the Council of Elders.

    Look, I think Hel has a better grasp of how dwarven honour works than you do.
    But if the Elders are speaking under compulsion, then they haven't really made a decision- they're being used as a mouthpiece for someone else's decision. If that's how dwarven honour works, then dwarven honour is stupid and they should change it.
    Last edited by Potatopeelerkin; 2019-02-11 at 11:20 PM.
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  30. - Top - End - #330
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    Default Re: OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

    Whether or not the backup plan has a chance of succeeding is overall not as important as the Ex-Exarch and co. are taking actions, to the detriment of the dwarves, as though the backup plan has a chance of succeeding. Given the choice between "Let's do something to stop them from harming more dwarves" and "Dvalin is capable and willing to determine the validity of the vote, so this sham has no chance," I know which path the Order of the Stick is going to take.
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