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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Way Of The Jaguar Claw (Monk Subclass) [PEACH]

    Restriction: Tabaxi Only
    Only tabaxi can follow the Way Of The Jaguar Claw. The Way Of The Jaguar Claw fills a particular niche in tabaxi society and culture.

    Your DM can lift this restriction to better suit the campaign. The restriction exists for the Forgotten Realms. It might not apply to your DM's setting or your DM's version of the Realms.

    Feline Acrobatics: (needs new name)
    Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can use your dexterity instead of strength for the purposes of calculating long and high jumps.
    Additionally, starting at 6th level, when you fall more than 10 feet and use your slow fall ability, you may spend 1 ki point to make an unarmed strike against a creature within 5 feet of where you land. If this attack hits, the creature takes additional damage equal to the damage that slow fall protected you from taking.
    Cat's Eyes And Ears:
    Also starting at 6th level, you have darkvision with a range of 120 feet.
    Additionally, traveling at a fast pace doesn't impose the normal -5 penalty on your passive Wisdom (Perception) score.
    Feline Furtiveness:
    Starting at 11th level, you have advantage on any Dexterity (Stealth) check if you move no more than half your speed on the same turn. In addition, when traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace.
    Cat's Luck:
    At 17th level, whenever you make an attack roll and the result is 20 or higher, you regain 1 ki point, not to exceed your maximum number of ki points.
    Last edited by rlc; Yesterday at 01:53 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Way Of The Jaguar Claw (Monk Subclass) [PEACH]

    This second post will be for discussion points and the changelog. I've already spoilered the changelog, but may also spoiler the discussion points, if t gets to be long.

    DISCUSSION POINTS
    So, thoughts on this? I think it's pretty balanced and doesn't really step on anybody else's toes.
    I think all of the features make sense for a cat-like character, though I wasn't sure if the 11th level ability specifically would be too strong in some campaigns, even if it is mostly ribbon.
    Also, while the level 17 ability is overpowered, that was kind of by design, which is why it was the final ability. It was mentioned that the extra die roll might bog things down, which is a reasonable argument, so I'm also open to ideas for that. I can always just scrap cat's luck and make it into a feat or magic item later, changing that ability completely.
    Finally, if anything is worded awkwardly, let me know. I try to read everything out loud before I post it, but things always get by you when you know what you're talking about.

    Spoiler: CHANGELOG
    Show

    Feb 12: changed level 3 feature to make it more cat-like
    Feb 20: changed cat's luck to not require it's own dice roll, while also nerfing it
    Last edited by rlc; Yesterday at 01:54 PM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Way Of The Jaguar Claw (Monk Subclass) [PEACH]

    Feline Acrobatics is weak. I would give that without the ki cost and probably something else as well. Given that the subclass does nothing to promote grappling I would probably equate it with the bonus proficencies gained from Drunken Master. Take a look at the other monk archetypes. I would add something here that changes the way you fight in combat.

    Cat's Luck will bog down the game too much with extra rolls every time you use ki, and effectively gives you 50% more ki in a day which is likely too strong. I might try something more conventional to replace it.

    Overall a good theme, and abilities that seem in line. Just needs some fine-tuning.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Way Of The Jaguar Claw (Monk Subclass) [PEACH]

    3rd level I like the idea of a grappler monk, but I am not sure how much this fits with the theme of the subclass you are making. What about cats suggests grappling? I also feel like it might burn through too many ki points as you would have to make a check to grapple and whenever they try to escape. It would probably fine to just say that you can use dex(acrobatics) for this checks whenever you want to

    6th level This feels very ribbony and underwhelming. Assuming that tabaxi already get darkvision 60 ft, this is not really all that big of a deal, and depending on the campaign/DM, the second feature could never come up.

    11th level This looks ok, assuming that this is around where the thief gets this benefit.

    17th level This is extremely overpowered. Yes, there is a bit of chance, but you are essentially doubling the number of ki points you have. Which is a problem.
    And anyways, you have a ton of ki points to use, but this subclass only gives you one (weak) way to use them. Consider replacing this with some new way to use ki points to give some new abilities to differentiate the class.
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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Way Of The Jaguar Claw (Monk Subclass) [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by superninja109 View Post
    11th level This looks ok, assuming that this is around where the thief gets this benefit.
    Thief rogues get Supreme Sneak at level 9, I took this and added a slightly more powerful version of one of the ranger's several level 1 ribbons, though it's still very ribonny, by design.

    Will take everything else so far into account.
    Maybe the level 3 feature should let you spend a ki point to shove as a bonus action after the grapple? Or make the grapple part of the flurry of blows, still with the acrobatics check?
    Last edited by rlc; 2019-02-12 at 11:13 AM.
    I usually post from my phone, so please excuse any horrendous typos.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 b4k4 View Post
    [to somebody getting upset over somebody else's house rule] Maybe you should take a break, you're getting rather worked up over magic elf games.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Way Of The Jaguar Claw (Monk Subclass) [PEACH]

    I think this is quite underpowered. The higher level features are alright-pretty good even, so I'll leave those out of my analysis. However, the majority of play happens in levels 3-9, and there this subclass just sucks.

    lvl 3 feature: There are already better ways to shove or knock prone with a monk (open hand) so the only thing this feature adds to the monk chasis is grappling. Why grappling fits your theme of a cat-based subclass I don't know, but we'll go with it. Grappling is decent (very good in fact on some characters) but the main reason I've never built a monk grappler is my lack of faith in the monk's ability to stay alive, not my lack of faith in the character's ability to succeed on the ability check. Being an effective grappler requires that you be able to grapple your opponent and then keep them there, and part of holding onto them is being a class that doesn't crumple like tissue paper (which the monk sort of tends to do under melee pressure). Thus, this feature is only really useful for grappling, but if I wanted to build a monk grappler I would still pick a different, tankier subclass like open hand or long death.

    lvl 6 feature: This is fine, but this feature is essentially a ribbon. Most races already have darkvision 60ft already, so the benefit of that portion is marginal, and the second benefit is really non-useful in 90% of the campaigns I've ever played.

    Some ideas to replace the lvl 3, since I don't feel like grappling is super cat-like:
    Since a basic part of the monk chassis is hit-and-run, I think a fun way to play up the cat theme would be to give some sort of pounce related feature at 3rd level. Some possible elements this could include:
    • You can use your dexterity instead of strength for the purposes of calculating long and high jumps
    • Beginning at 4th level, when you fall more than 10 feet and use your slow fall ability, you you may use a bonus action to make an unarmed strike against a creature within 5 feet of where you land. If this attack hits, the creature takes additional damage equal to the damage that slow fall protected you from. (if you think that's too much damage make it half as much as slow fall prevented or something)
    • Beginning at 3rd (or 6th) level, you may use step of the wind without spending a bonus action, only consuming a ki point.


    The basic idea here is to encourage the monk to jump high in the air and land on people for big damage, like a cat pouncing on its prey.
    Last edited by Potato_Priest; 2019-02-12 at 12:10 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    See, I remember the days of roleplaying before organisms could even see, let alone use see as a metaphor for comprehension. We could barely comprehend that we could comprehend things. Imagining we were something else was a huge leap forward and really passed the time in between absorbing nutrients.

    Biggest play I ever made: "I want to eat something over there." Anticipated the trope of "being able to move" that you see in all stories these days.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Way Of The Jaguar Claw (Monk Subclass) [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Potato_Priest View Post
    Some ideas to replace the lvl 3, since I don't feel like grappling is super cat-like:
    Since a basic part of the monk chassis is hit-and-run, I think a fun way to play up the cat theme would be to give some sort of pounce related feature at 3rd level. Some possible elements this could include:
    • You can use your dexterity instead of strength for the purposes of calculating long and high jumps
    • Beginning at 4th level, when you fall more than 10 feet and use your slow fall ability, you you may use a bonus action to make an unarmed strike against a creature within 5 feet of where you land. If this attack hits, the creature takes additional damage equal to the damage that slow fall protected you from. (if you think that's too much damage make it half as much as slow fall prevented or something)
    • Beginning at 3rd (or 6th) level, you may use step of the wind without spending a bonus action, only consuming a ki point.


    The basic idea here is to encourage the monk to jump high in the air and land on people for big damage, like a cat pouncing on its prey.
    Honestly, when I was originally designing the subclass, I thought about jumping, but couldn't really think of anything good. The slow fall kind of messed with my ideas for feather fall, but this kind of fits with some f my original thoughts, and is actually what I was trying to get at, but couldn't really think of. I'll definitely use this idea.
    I usually post from my phone, so please excuse any horrendous typos.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 b4k4 View Post
    [to somebody getting upset over somebody else's house rule] Maybe you should take a break, you're getting rather worked up over magic elf games.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Way Of The Jaguar Claw (Monk Subclass) [PEACH]

    I do recommend at some point removing the bonus action cost of step of the wind- doing so allows you to use step of the wind in conjunction with feline acrobatics for a better high jump and thus more damage.
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    See, I remember the days of roleplaying before organisms could even see, let alone use see as a metaphor for comprehension. We could barely comprehend that we could comprehend things. Imagining we were something else was a huge leap forward and really passed the time in between absorbing nutrients.

    Biggest play I ever made: "I want to eat something over there." Anticipated the trope of "being able to move" that you see in all stories these days.

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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Way Of The Jaguar Claw (Monk Subclass) [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Potato_Priest View Post
    I do recommend at some point removing the bonus action cost of step of the wind- doing so allows you to use step of the wind in conjunction with feline acrobatics for a better high jump and thus more damage.
    Yeah, the original suggestion was just a bonus action and I added the ki point myself to ensure that the damage was balanced, but didn't bother removing the bonus action because I didn't think it hurt anything. Until now. Bonus action removed and it just costs the reaction from slow fall and the 1 ki point.
    I usually post from my phone, so please excuse any horrendous typos.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 b4k4 View Post
    [to somebody getting upset over somebody else's house rule] Maybe you should take a break, you're getting rather worked up over magic elf games.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Way Of The Jaguar Claw (Monk Subclass) [PEACH]

    I think you misunderstood. My suggestion was to have a feature removing the bonus action cost of step of the wind, which is one of the base monk abilities, not feline acrobatics. What you did works to a certain extent as well though. Here are the ups and downs of either version:

    No bonus action for feline acrobatics, but it does cost 1 ki (how it is now):
    One extra attack/round theoretically possible with fall and flurry of blows
    Need 2 key points to use step of the wind in conjunction with feline acrobatics(1 for step, one for acrobatics)

    No bonus action cost for step of the wind, bonus action but no ki cost for feline acrobatics:
    No extra attacks/round possible
    Need 1 key point to use step of the wind in conjunction with feline acrobatics (1 for step, 0 for acrobatics)
    Can't use flurry of blows with feline acrobatics
    Last edited by Potato_Priest; 2019-02-12 at 01:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    See, I remember the days of roleplaying before organisms could even see, let alone use see as a metaphor for comprehension. We could barely comprehend that we could comprehend things. Imagining we were something else was a huge leap forward and really passed the time in between absorbing nutrients.

    Biggest play I ever made: "I want to eat something over there." Anticipated the trope of "being able to move" that you see in all stories these days.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Way Of The Jaguar Claw (Monk Subclass) [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Potato_Priest View Post
    I think you misunderstood. My suggestion was to have a feature removing the bonus action cost of step of the wind, which is one of the base monk abilities, not feline acrobatics. What you did works to a certain extent as well though. Here are the ups and downs of either version:

    No bonus action for feline acrobatics, but it does cost 1 ki (how it is now):
    One extra attack/round theoretically possible with fall and flurry of blows
    Need 2 key points to use step of the wind in conjunction with feline acrobatics(1 for step, one for acrobatics)

    No bonus action cost for step of the wind, bonus action but no ki cost for feline acrobatics:
    No extra attacks/round possible
    Need 1 key point to use step of the wind in conjunction with feline acrobatics (1 for step, 0 for acrobatics)
    Can't use flurry of blows with feline acrobatics
    Ah, okay. That's fair. If it works well now, I'll leave it as it is, unless somebody thinks it doesn't work. As is, Cat's Luck also comes online (much) later to allow you to do it (and Flurry Of Blows) more often. Of course, I'll edit it if I end up scrapping Cat's Luck.
    I usually post from my phone, so please excuse any horrendous typos.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 b4k4 View Post
    [to somebody getting upset over somebody else's house rule] Maybe you should take a break, you're getting rather worked up over magic elf games.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Way Of The Jaguar Claw (Monk Subclass) [PEACH]

    In light of Potato_Priest's point about needing to be tanky to be a good grappler, if you are really set on grappling, maybe something like the cloaker's damage transfer where when you are grappling someone, half the damage you take is transfered to the person being grappled.
    Hello. I hope you have had a nice day.
    I am sorry if I come off as overly aggressive or disrespectful when arguing. The truth is, I love debating about random things, so I'd love it if you oblige me by debating things I say. Truth is revealed through constant and communal inquiry!

    Also, check out and PEACH my 5e homebrew for which I am currently too lazy to put up links (coming soon).

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Way Of The Jaguar Claw (Monk Subclass) [PEACH]

    I would change the lv 17 ability to like: gain one ki point when you roll a 20 on an attack roll. You may not have more ki than your normal ki total.
    Needs more options to spend ki on. I do like converting downwards inertia into damage to enemies. Also dex for jumps is nice for a monk. I like the rest of it.


    Alternatively, Would be cool to see some charisma based effects since Tabaxi get charisma (see swash buckler) maybe you can use charisma in place of wisdom any time monk calls for it. Or maybe you can add wisdom to cha checks. Or maybe you can spend ki to add charisma to your damage per hit for a round. Maybe you get additional ki points equal to your charisma. Something...
    Last edited by MagneticKitty; 2019-02-12 at 03:16 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Way Of The Jaguar Claw (Monk Subclass) [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by MagneticKitty View Post
    I would change the lv 17 ability to like: gain one ki point when you roll a 20 on an attack roll. You may not have more ki than your normal ki total.
    Needs more options to spend ki on. I do like converting downwards inertia into damage to enemies. Also dex for jumps is nice for a monk. I like the rest of it.


    Alternatively, Would be cool to see some charisma based effects since Tabaxi get charisma (see swash buckler) maybe you can use charisma in place of wisdom any time monk calls for it. Or maybe you can add wisdom to cha checks. Or maybe you can spend ki to add charisma to your damage per hit for a round. Maybe you get additional ki points equal to your charisma. Something...
    Some interesting ideas. Maybe max ki points can increase by cha mod at some level (probably 11th)? That would also work with your proposed level 17 change.
    Or maybe just Unarmored Defense could use cha instead of wis, or a way to bring ki points into it is to make it like the shield spell, but based on your cha, rather than a set number. So you get the same effect as the spell if you work for it. Not sure if that would be worth it, though.
    Last edited by rlc; 2019-02-12 at 03:31 PM.
    I usually post from my phone, so please excuse any horrendous typos.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 b4k4 View Post
    [to somebody getting upset over somebody else's house rule] Maybe you should take a break, you're getting rather worked up over magic elf games.

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