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2019-02-13, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
(I would have just carried on that thread, but thread necro limit...!)
Okay, so back in September, I was working on the elenthnar race for my CAD work.
I won't repeat the entire blub here (the OP of the last thread should explain).
Long story short, I have reached the point where I am about to base and paint the infantry for the convention in two weeks and...
*sigh*
They are, to put it bluntly... Too big.
Spoiler
That is three Phystyulons (two lazer troopers and flame trooper), as compared to a whole squad of Russian cold war infantry (which my Dad has been experimenting ith and just happened to be handy).
As you can see, putting the Phystyulons on a base is going to be bigger than the humans by quite a margin, and I might even find it difficult to get the based such that they will fit inside a 144th semi-detached house (35mm deep), even.
On top of this, the volume is a big problem for printing, because they don't work ever so well off the home printer:
.Spoiler
And at imaterialise, I got 24 printed for about a quid a go, in the end, incuding P&P, and it's even more expensive at Shapeways. By comparison, I got 80 human infantry for my GLA/Galactic Terrorist army for about the same sort of price. So they aren't very economical there, either. (While I could do a sharper job of spacing them, I think, to some extent, it wouldn't help that much.)
I had thought "well, I'll just do the next lot lying down, or more 'kneeling'" until I realised the basing issue.
This is kinda a cumulative problem which is pushing this over the edge - especially as I had delibverately set up the elenthnar as a stock for multiple armies (there are four space poweers currently).
Which, to my eternal regret, does seem to indicate I kind of need to consider a heavy redesign. (The models I have for the convention will just have to do, I can always ret-con them laster as Phystyulon genetic engineering or something!) They need to be fairly close to humans in size for the obvious reasons above (plus the whole "all the special guff and factionalism humans have, the elenthnar have too" which is one of their defining traits).
Again, the full blurb is in the OP for the last thread, but the critical points here, I think, are to find a way to make them... FAR less volumetric. Clearly, spider-legs will have to go (which I am really miffed at), but I would like to preserve the four-legs thing and the majority of the fluff if possible. Maybe lean more on the nominal "they were arborally descended?"
But I'm not sure where to go from here. Four human-legs doesn't... Seem like it would look right.
I would greatly welcome any ideas or suggestions (often, it is genuninely helpful for me to have rigidly defined my areas of doubt and uncertainty).Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2019-02-13 at 01:08 PM.
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2019-02-13, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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- Bristol, UK
Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
Why can't you make them smaller?
The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2019-02-13, 02:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
Couple of reasons.
The primary reason is purely practical - the limbs (and weapons) are already at the minimum printable thickness and their thinnest part. So to shrink them the limbs would have to stay the same thickness (i.e. diameter) - and you'd have to shrink them a fair bit for the volumetric effects to be make any difference, so the proportions would just look really off. (Assuming that in functionally possible to do it at all.)
Lastly, they are supposed to be "very close to humans, but not humans with knobbly foreheads" if you take my meaning, so they need to be the same size.
(Also, the doors and hatches on all of their vehicles that I've already done. And painted...!)Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2019-02-13 at 02:22 PM.
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2019-02-13, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
You're asking a difficult question. Legs are 50% of the mass of a human body. We only focus on the upper torso but legs are structurally huge so adding more of them will of course hugely increase the bulk.
The only way I see to do it is make spindly spear-like legs like war of the worlds martian walkers.
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2019-02-13, 04:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
I know; that's why the answer wasn't immeditaly obvious to me - hense thread!
Spindly legs doesnt work, for the aforementioned practical reasons that can't be any thinner than they are anyway... Plus spindley little short spider legs like Mojo from X-Men would look ridiculous.
Just changing the legs to be like, four human legs sort of doesn't work, either, as I can't see a) why that would be a thing and b) it always looks kind of awkward on Mantenna from She-Ra (and the poses in the cartoon and what you could actually do with a physical model are incompatible) and I can't think of any other examples.
Two small legs (from the lower fron torso) and two bigger legs (like articulated from the upper rear torso) is something that occurred, but I dismissed as being kind of stupid.
Don't want to do something like change 'em to two raptor/bird legs (way to much other stuff has that - both the Raarg'Ssth and the Vivrathk, for a start.)Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2019-02-13 at 04:25 PM.
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2019-02-13, 09:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
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Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
I think, realistically, a creature with four legs would have thinner legs than one with two. In terms of practically for printing and not breaking, could you print the miniatures as multiple parts and assemble them with steel wire for the legs? Maybe cut up sewing pins for something stronger than wire. More work I guess, but you're already painting them. What's the smallest socket you can leave in a piece?
Another option might be to have them always posed squatting, kneeling, or prone. Or some other poses that only work on hexapods. Maybe they tend to fold themselves up when stationary, and only pop up on their limbs when moving. That could be because they're more comfortable that way, or they just have an aversion to getting shot it the head.Last edited by Excession; 2019-02-13 at 09:11 PM.
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2019-02-14, 05:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
Impossibly fiddly. It was bad enough printing and assembling the Ghyla-Heelene1 Yrgynela in multiple parts - they have four spider-legs, too - and they're the size of tanks, let alone something 12mm high. Plus, can't then be put up on the Shipyards afterwards, either.
Originally Posted by Excession
1That's “Jeye-la (or "gee-la") heee-lee-nee” not "guy-la he-leen," by-the-by.Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2019-02-14 at 05:57 AM.
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2019-02-14, 05:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
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- Cippa's River Meadow
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Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
Depends on how the legs are 'mounted' to the skeleton. If the legs were directly underneath the body, then each individual leg could afford to be thinner than an animal with two legs as the weight is transmitted straight down (eg dogs).
Since the legs are 'side mounted' here (see crocodilians and lizards), each leg is more muscular than the equivalent leg of a biped, since they're supporting the same weight at a more awkward angle. You could 'slim' the leg down by making the critter less active than a biped (crocodilians and lizards rest on their bellies a lot and only engage their legs as required), but doesn't solve the issue that Aotrs is facing.
From experience, the proposal by Excession seems the most workable (use metal reinforcement then sculpt modelling clay onto the legs to ensure they fit onto the stand). Unfortunately you've said that this isn't practical for your purposes, so it looks like you're stuck with oversized critters unless you have them all resting with their legs all scrunched up to fit the required base size.Last edited by Brother Oni; 2019-02-14 at 06:02 AM.
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2019-02-14, 01:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
We're talking about minimum thickness here being already 1mm - I dunno about you, but I don't think even my lich eyes (or fingers) are up to trying to faff with trying to put modeling clay onto something at the accuracy required to do less than that...
Okay, spitballing here (I'm off to wargames shortly, doing a set-up for the convention I've been sorting this stuff all for, but I will further refine it when I have some spare moments):
Two ideas.
One. Retain four legs at the "corners" as stated, with arbitarily flexible hips, but aside from adding a short extra joint (the elenthnar/spider elgs have two extra), but make the default stance entirely upright. They would still walk a bit spider-like (using that extra spider-hip-joint), but foot-base would be much narrower, closer to human. (Edit: Left scribble)
Two: change to "biped," but have a pair of rear limbs, sprouting from the arse, to put it bluntly, that are neither tails nor arms nor legs, but a sort of combination of all - limbs which is vaguely prehensile-tail-like, but can also serve as, if not locamotive legs, certainly climbing and/or standing props (maps with their climbing thing). Ball-and-socket sort of poiint allowing almost 180º of rotation vertically (so they can point up or down or out to, say 90º to the left or rigth side, depending on which side the limb is). Said limbs would be, at rest, folded up vertically along the back, so could also be used as "arms" (without hands, but maybe vagule grasping feet-ish?) to, for example, allow them to carry stuff (like we would in the crook of our elbows, almost, but more so). Bonus points for being a suggestion that would be how the arborial elenthnar might carry their babies, like a sort of built in back-pack baby carrier. (Also makes Granny elenthnar's wheelchair a lot easier to make1
(Edit: Right scribble)
Might be as clear as mud without a scribble sketch, I'll try and do one later (maybe while out!), but thoughts?
Edit:Spoiler
1Grandmother's wheelchairs being particularly in mind today, as we took mine out to celebrate her 93rd birthday tomorrow.Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2019-02-14 at 05:33 PM.
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2019-03-13, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
I have finally had time to have possibly dubous first past at Elenthnar V2.0 using the aforementioned idea from those scribble-sketches.
In this, the quadruped-spider-legs is being replaced by a more humanoid stance, with the addition of two limbs which are neither arm nor leg nor prehensile tail (let's call them flangwurzles (working title...) for the sake af arguement), which curl up the back. This, one again, makes them more plausible former tree-crawlers, since said flangwurzles, capable of a high degree of movement, would not only help them climb, but potentially act sort of like a natural back-pack for carrying stuff (i.e. baby elenthar-ancestors).
Spoiler
First off, of course, the thickness of the flangwurzles have been exaggerated a bit because print thickness, though probably not by much. They also had to be longer than I thought (hence having to curl up), since they have to be able to reach the length of the legs to touch the ground (second image lines). Humanoid legs have been moved a bit forward and the hip area is basically the first one I tried (for the quadrueped, I had to make the butt bigger still). I have gone for a more tail-like structure at this stage (first order of magnitude pass to see if it even works ar all) before I consider whether it should have a more jointed form (plus I gotts know where the joints might go even.)
Thoughts? Suggestions? Does it look too utterly terrible? Should the body have to be canted into a more forward-leaning stance, maybe? (That has some mildly amusing connotations, considering it makes all their nacrs would be more prominently shoved forward...!)
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2019-03-13, 07:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
My first impression is that it no longer looks alien. At a small size they're just going to look like a human with a pack.
Mechanically it would need a forward leaning stance, just to keep the centre of mass above the feet, especially if it was carrying something. Humans obviously do the same when carrying a heavy pack, so again it's just going to look human.
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2019-03-13, 09:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
That is the at rest pose - when bracing or doing other stuff, the flangwurzles will hopefully be a bit more prominent.
But I'm totally open to suggestions!
I am considering switching the legs to bird-legs, rather than human legs (reverse the joints, basically), but am not entirely sure how well that would work for a climbing creature? (I mean, obviously, it doesn't stop birds, but...) That might, at least once posed, also help to alleivate them from looking too human (and might even uncanny valley them a bit, which would be a bonus, in this case)?Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2019-03-13 at 09:06 PM.
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2019-03-13, 09:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
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Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
Uncanny valley still means human. To hit that you need to be "human but not quite". Truly alien is something different.
When birds climb (I may be mostly thinking about parrots) they tend to use their beak as an extra hand. It gives them the extra reach that their legs don't have. Is the key to climbing, in all cases, reach? If so, a hexapedal creature that evolved to climb might have longer, stronger "legs" for their front and back pair, while their central pair could become weaker "arms" more suited for fine manipulation. The central pair could also be used to hold their young. This might be more pronounced on a higher gravity planet, where arboreal limbs and hands would need to be larger and stronger, making them less suited for fine tool use. High-G might also suggest a shorter, stronger neck to avoid whiplash.
So what about a torso with an arboreal limb on each corner, fine manipulation limbs in the middle, and a short neck supporting the head between the upper limbs. They could stand or walk on one pair of legs, while to run they could drop into a four-footed gait. While walking or running the central limbs could handle light guns, possibly tending to fire sideways while running to keep the noise away from their ears. While standing, prone, or supine their corner limbs could handle heavy weapons.
That might be a long way from what you're wanting, but it wouldn't look very human. Not sure what it would be like to model and print.Last edited by Excession; 2019-03-13 at 10:02 PM.
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2019-03-14, 05:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
Well, the elenthnar are supposed to be "like humans, but not" rather than completely alien, so that's not entirely bad in this case.
Originally Posted by Excession
Originally Posted by Excession
(Actually, this might be illustrative of a larger issue I need to be aware, that at 12th, you can't really do anything smaller than human (shorter, maybe, you might get away with halflings or goblins just about, it you use the LotR movie (in my opinion, mentally correct) scale) and larger potentiallt has the same issues as heere (as well, of course, of pushing up the base size of vehicles - though that knew from doing the Stravyians (7' tall humanoid lava-dudes). Doing the Lujuqujul (four-and-a-half-foot tall with frog legs and butterfly-ish wings) might prove also impractical; I might stand more chance with the Grey Watchers in the Mire, because while they are also hexapods like four meters long at full spread, they don't stand upright. (Imagine something roughly and very inaccurately like a crocodile with arms in front of the front legs and a head like a prehistoric armoured fish, only with a neatly rolled up flatworm tail - the full descriptin is long and complex!))Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2019-03-14 at 05:46 AM.
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2019-03-14, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
Shorten the leg segments. Keep the original 4 leg model, but make the leg segments half the length they are/were. This will help resolve your base size issue because their stance will be much narrower. It will also decrease their height, which is good IMO since usually quads are not as tall as bi-peds.
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2019-03-15, 08:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
Tried this:
Old on the left, new on the right.
Spoiler
That was shrinking the leg length by 50%.
What does everyone think?
Two observations, for myself. Firstly, it doesn't look quite as off as I thought it'd be, surprisingly. But.. Eh, I'm not sure. (Need to go away and not look at it for a bit and come back after having done something else, I think.)
The second problem is that surprisingly only reduced the leg span by 2.3mm (15%) and the height by about 1.1mm... So the volume hasn't actually dropped all that significantly - to 67% on a very crude estimate on cylindrical volume. Though given that bounding box is a factor, that's not too far out. So, for a very rough guesstimate, that might be from, roughly a quid a figure to 67p a figure, compared to a human, which is roughly 40p a figure.
Moreover, the spread of the legs is still a bit of an issue, as it's still about 13.5mm (in the resting pose). A semi-detached house at the scale we're using is about 35 by 62mm, and at current, three phystyulons fit just barely in about a 35 by 40 space (six humans fit comfortably in a 20 by 30 base); assuming the drop off is the same, you'd maybe be looking at 30 by 35 for three. (So you MIGHT get sic in a house.) Still a bit much, methinks.
Of course, the problem is, doing more than fagpacket calculations based on the resting pose will require me to go through and actually replace the legs properly on the posed models, which would mean having to individually three-point assemble each leg (which is six bits per leg, not including the circles used to denote the articulation point), which would be... Fairly time-consuming. (Toss-up whether it would be more or less than just re-doing all the poses.
Plan B would be throw up my hands, give them bird-legs (I think I will have to maybe space them further apart that a human, and have them have larger hips), and then work out where to put the flangwurles. I had a long think about it yesterday, and if they are joined such, that, rather than being tail-like, they are more like but not quite arms (which fold away, u-shaped on the back), but that would be able to reach both up and down and so maybe function a bit like Excession was suggesting with the four corners. The issue is, if you attached them at the shoulder, they'd have to be huge to reach the floor, and if you attach them at the waist, they might not be able to reach up as far as the regular arms.
I might have to have a try at this later, in any case.Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2019-03-15 at 08:12 AM.
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2019-03-15, 11:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
I think they look fine. But it still leaves you with issues. What about if you further decrease the size of the thigh/first leg segment? That would narrow up their base and leave them at the new/current height.
All that said, I think you are going to have to compromise, given the limitations of scale (i.e. min printable sizes) and all that. It's just a matter of where you want to compromise.
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2019-03-15, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
A quick look suggests that I migh be able to move it, essentially half a mm inwards, not a great deal of difference by the time it's been posed, I suspect.
While I contemplate that, here is the second-order plan B attempt:
Spoiler
The difference being one is standing fully upright, the other not quite. Looking at ostrich legs as the model, they can do the former, but don't seem to very often. (Though my exact level of stance is up for debate, but this is a second-order pass.)
The flangwurzles (I really will call them something different if they become official!) - actually more by accident that design! - can reach, from their curent position, both the floor (fully upright) and the same height as the arms above the head, which is, I think about perfect length.
The hip bits need a little more adjustment, I think aesthetically, and I could maybe move them back a little bit more; I do think I need to slightly tilt the torso fowards (and adjust the head straight), as they. especially bent-leg one looks as though he or she might go over backwards!
(In reality, of course, the flangwurzles would be a fair bit proportionally thinner (I mean,that's true of the arms and stuff, too, but!), but printing sizes and such.)
Maybe? Mechanically, at least?Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2019-03-15 at 12:02 PM.
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2019-03-15, 07:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
Mechanically yes. But they don't look alien :(
If you can't go with more than 2 legs, what about something else to make them alien? Round bodies with the head towards the front? Or ... I don't know!
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2019-03-16, 06:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
Well, so far, no-one I've spoken to seems to be remotely impressed with the flangwurzles (so it can't be a very good idea, which will be a problem if shortening the legs fails); so I will have to do a full conversion test on the shortened legs next week and cross my fingers that it is enough to be passable practically.
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2019-03-16, 10:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
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- The system of Sol
Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
I think the short-legs are an improvement over the original. They look more infantryman and less powerful boss monster. Also, a 30% decrease in cost isn't anything to sneeze at. It makes sense that they'd be a little more expensive than an ordinary human figure. Is there anything else that can be done to reduce cost further, maybe with the torso or the head?
With the flangwurzles, they would work better in pretty much any other medium. Still poses on a small figure don't play up their weirdness like you could with more detailed drawings, animation, or text. I think that a figurine will look too normal no matter the pose.Physics in D&D is only superficially similar to real world physics.
Avatar by Honest Tiefling
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2019-03-16, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
Is there an issue with only having 3 of them on a base to the humans 4? I mean, they'd still be a bit more expensive (201 to the human 160 ish) but considering that the model is bigger and more detailed I think that's fair. And its not even like three of them matching hte firepower of four humans is unreasonable, they are larger and have a more stable firing stance so I wouldn't be surprised if their guns are a bit mroe powerful or can just shoot faster to make up the difference.
Though, it occurs to me that you could maybe make them sit? Lower the middle part and draw the foreleg in to rest against the thigh. This would reduce its height a bit and would also thicken a part of the leg as the "calk" and "thigh" would be touching for a bit
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2019-03-16, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
It's not three elenthnar to four humans, it's three elenthnar (half a squad of six) in the same space an entire squad (of typically two fire teams of three to six) of seven to ten humans; so yes, it's an issue. Specifically because the elenthnar are emphatically NOT Better Than Humans (there are already plenty of those floating around already*). The whole point of the elenthnar is to be "same as humans, but not humans, also, they've been around longer" not "spider-legged aliens" if you see my meaning; so in a toss-up between those, the spider-bits are the things that will have to go.
Originally Posted by Blackhawk748
Spoiler
Ditto for having them all, as my Dad has done with his modern infantry, just in lying prone, because the leg-spread is as much or arguably more a problem then the cost-by-volume. Ya gotta be able to park a full squad on one story of a semi-detached, else they can't be equivilent to humans.
*SpoilerE.g.
7' tall built-like-a-brick-outhouse, strong enough to crush rocks in their hands lava-aliens that are Smarter Than You because natural computer-brains
Telekinetic Welsh-pony sized carnivorous tetracorns (in power armour) who have carry twice as many guns
Alien spider-robot ladies (with a mini-Me and mini-Hopereaver for comparion)
Magical space liches.
To mentioned the ones I've done (and not counting any of the war droids).
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2019-03-16, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
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2019-03-17, 10:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Flanhk-Marepork
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Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
I may have missed something earlier, but is there any reason why you can't reduce the number of leg segments & joints? They look they have 4 leg bones, which is adding to the "spread" problem... have you tried something like your "Plan B ostrich legs", but in a square pattern?
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2019-03-17, 11:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
I like the smaller size. It looks like you could get away with lowering the body further, giving them a fully coiled stance. Bring the hips right down to the ankles, and ignore the self-intersections in the mesh. Make the lower and upper leg about the same length as well, and drop the extra joint. Combined with lower than Earth gravity they might be more jumper than climber; there is a resemblance to a jumping spider from certain angles. The folded stance would give them maximum power to start moving, and their muscles would be designed for it in ways humans' aren't. Maybe also have the legs a bit more grouped two front and two back rather than equally spaced around.
With that degree of bending they might be unable to solidly armour the insides of their knees, which wouldn't matter so much if they stay bent in most cases. They could have heavier plates, a bit like shields, on the outside of their shins to compensate. In primitive warfare they might have raised one front leg to use a shield in hand to hand.
They might prefer a half supine stance to fully prone, as they wouldn't lose mobility. Bring the front legs together, providing cover, and lean the torso back between the back legs. They can still fire over the top of or between their front shin armour, while remaining ready to jump or sprint. Leaning forward similarly would give a better view but leave the head more exposed.Last edited by Excession; 2019-03-17 at 11:43 PM.
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2019-03-23, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
Okay. Given the unilateral feedback, from everyone I asked, that no-one thought anything of the flangwurzle model, I ran the full test on the shorter-legged version.
So, after about five hour’s work – which was why I didn’t rush to try it, it’d have been wasted if it failed - I re-did all of the Phystyulon Troopers with the shorter legs.
Not much space saved vertically (maybe a mm), but a fairly significant amount in area (see 2.1h), together with a bit better tessellation. The red rectangle indicates the approximate size of one of the 144th semi-detached floor area, and that appears to indicate that a squad will fit within that area.
Spoiler
A look at the prices on imaterialise, it went from about £24 to about £15 (plus postage), which is pretty significant, and from what would be £29 to £21 at Shapeways; more than I’d like, but still an improvement, especially at the former.
What’s really odd is now when I look at the old and new versions (2.1i), the old ones look too long-legged by comparison. Weird.
Spoiler
Does mean I also have to re-do the bikes as well, of course...
But thanks everyone (and especially to LordEntrails!) ; this was a difficult one to solve!
Edit: Okay, the bikes were surprisingly painless to re-sort out; the pedal bits having to move didn't force me to do any major re-designs, as it happens.
Spoiler: Old top, new bottom
Plus, the front pedals being higher means they can lean over into the turns a bit more, I guess. (Though you'd want to be careful about that, the HU-946 Rocket Cycle is, after all, a fracking monster of a "bike." You REALLY wouldn't want to miscalculate and have it fall on you...)Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2019-03-23 at 04:03 PM.
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2019-03-24, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
Re: Alien Ergonomics Parte The Seconde
Glad to have helped :) As a CAD guy myself, I find such project interesting :)