Warlock AoA and THPs

[Kadesh]

Proving something doesn't exist isn't how science works.

Now, we can pick apart the Damage Rolls rules to determine whether or not a diceless damage source is considered a damage roll.



If we assume this is actually a list of requirements, and highlight any optional bits, this is what we come to:

You roll the damage die or dice, add any modifiers, and apply the damage to your target. Magic weapons, special abilities, and other factors can grant a bonus to damage.
(Underline representing optional factors, bold representing why those factors are optional.)

Now lets remove the optional stuff: "You roll the damage die or dice [...] and apply the damage to your target."

That seems to be the bare minimum for the Damage Roll rules to be considered.

As mentioned in Sage Advice, even something like a diceless Unarmed Strike doesn't benefit from a Critical Hit (due to not rolling any dice). It seems that diceless Unarmed Strikes are also not considered Damage Rolls. This can seem a bit odd (and generally isn't an issue in most instances), but that's what DM's are for.

So Armor of Agathys doesn't actually deal any damage, because you don't actually roll a dice, and the rules only make provision for rolling a dice to deal damage. Gotcha, fantastic argument. Well Proven.

I did, in my prior post. And you made the statement: “All damage according to the PHB is defined as a damage roll,” so, yes, the onus is on you to back it up.

You've already done me the honours of finding the part about how to apply damage, and that it's a damage roll.

[RSP]

So Armor of Agathys doesn't actually deal any damage, because you don't actually roll a dice, and the rules only make provision for rolling a dice to deal damage. Gotcha, fantastic argument. Well Proven.


You've already done me the honours of finding the part about how to apply damage, and that it's a damage roll.

I think you’re missing a lot of the rules in your comprehension of how damage works in 5e, but if you want to ignore the RAW, I don’t think anyone not at your table will seriously mind.

[MThurston]

GFB does Stat mod damage from Level 1 - 4.

[Kadesh]

I think you’re missing a lot of the rules in your comprehension of how damage works in 5e, but if you want to ignore the RAW, I don’t think anyone not at your table will seriously mind.

"hey, he disagrees with me, he must be wrong"
- Guy who can't back up his houserule

Okay mate.

[RSP]

"hey, he disagrees with me, he must be wrong"
- Guy who can't back up his houserule

Okay mate.

Not true (and technically the onus is on you to cite said rule if you’re making that claim, but I don’t mind going through the RAW process). Start at “Making an Attack”, in the Combat section, and note the third step:

“3. Resolve the attack.
You make the attack roll. On a hit,
you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage.”

This is where we see the “damage roll” come in, that is, on an attack that hits.

Then move to the next relevant part of the rules:

“Damage Rolls
Each weapon, spell, and harmful monster ability specifies the damage it deals. You roll the damage die or dice, add any modifiers, and apply the damage to your target. Magic weapons, special abilities, and other factors can grant a bonus to damage.
When attacking with a weapon, you add your ability modifier—the same modifier used for the attack roll—to the damage. A spell tells you which dice to roll for damage and whether to add any modifiers.”

Let’s break that down.

First off, if you really want to, you can start at the beginning of the PHB: “Game Dice” to understand “rolls” (“When you need to roll dice, the rules tell you how many dice to roll of a certain type, as well as what modifiers to add“), but basic English also tells us how to interpret “rolls” in regards to the game: you roll dice.

So the term “Damage Rolls” needs to be taken with the above understood.

Now, the first line of Damage Rolls states “Each weapon, spell, and harmful monster ability specifies the damage it deals.” True statement. For example AoA deals 5 Cold damage per spell level of casting: the spell tells us the damage it deals. (As AoA doesn’t deal with rolling dice, we can stop there, but you’ll want to continue for how to proceed with damage that does involve dice rolling.)

The second line “You roll the damage die or dice, add any modifiers, and apply the damage to your target.” So when we have damage that involves dice, we follow this process. (Note that AoA damage is not rolling dice or a modifier, so this process cannot be used).

Next line: “Magic weapons, special abilities, and other factors can grant a bonus to damage.” True (keep in mind AoA is not “bonus damage”), and Hex is a good example here: it adds +1d6 to the damage roll.

The next paragraph isn’t relative to AoA at all:
“When attacking with a weapon, you add your ability modifier—the same modifier used for the attack roll—to the damage. A spell tells you which dice to roll for damage and whether to add any modifiers.” AoA isn’t a weapon, so no need to use the first sentence; and the spell doesn’t tell us to roll any dice, so we can ignore the second.

[Trampaige]

This is the most bizarre hill to die on.

I'm fond of the part where we've both quoted rules at him repeatedly, and since what he's talking about doesn't exist and he can't quote anything to support himself, he just keeps going on and on like this.

This forum never really changes.

[Man_Over_Game]

@Kadesh, you do make some great points, so much so that I posted a question on RPG Stack Exchange for a more formal review on it: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questi...trike-count-as

I agree that it does seem odd to consider "flat damage" as being exempt from the Damage Rolls section (which is the only real ruling that's applicable in this instance), but it also is a bit odd for something to be considered a "roll" without dice. Could go either way, I suppose.

No need for the hostility, though. We're all just rules lawyers at the mercy of JC's twitter account, same as you.

[Kadesh]

This is the most bizarre hill to die on.

I'm fond of the part where we've both quoted rules at him repeatedly, and since what he's talking about doesn't exist and he can't quote anything to support himself, he just keeps going on and on like this.

This forum never really changes.

I can quote pythagorean theorem too, and it would have as equal relevance as your arguments.

Not true (and technically the onus is on you to cite said rule if you’re making that claim, but I don’t mind going through the RAW process). Start at “Making an Attack”, in the Combat section, and note the third step:

“3. Resolve the attack.
You make the attack roll. On a hit,
you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage.”

This is where we see the “damage roll” come in, that is, on an attack that hits.

Then move to the next relevant part of the rules:

“Damage Rolls
Each weapon, spell, and harmful monster ability specifies the damage it deals. You roll the damage die or dice, add any modifiers, and apply the damage to your target. Magic weapons, special abilities, and other factors can grant a bonus to damage.
When attacking with a weapon, you add your ability modifier—the same modifier used for the attack roll—to the damage. A spell tells you which dice to roll for damage and whether to add any modifiers.”

Let’s break that down.

First off, if you really want to, you can start at the beginning of the PHB: “Game Dice” to understand “rolls” (“When you need to roll dice, the rules tell you how many dice to roll of a certain type, as well as what modifiers to add“), but basic English also tells us how to interpret “rolls” in regards to the game: you roll dice.

So the term “Damage Rolls” needs to be taken with the above understood.

Now, the first line of Damage Rolls states “Each weapon, spell, and harmful monster ability specifies the damage it deals.” True statement. For example AoA deals 5 Cold damage per spell level of casting: the spell tells us the damage it deals. (As AoA doesn’t deal with rolling dice, we can stop there, but you’ll want to continue for how to proceed with damage that does involve dice rolling.)

The second line “You roll the damage die or dice, add any modifiers, and apply the damage to your target.” So when we have damage that involves dice, we follow this process. (Note that AoA damage is not rolling dice or a modifier, so this process cannot be used).

Next line: “Magic weapons, special abilities, and other factors can grant a bonus to damage.” True (keep in mind AoA is not “bonus damage”), and Hex is a good example here: it adds +1d6 to the damage roll.

The next paragraph isn’t relative to AoA at all:
“When attacking with a weapon, you add your ability modifier—the same modifier used for the attack roll—to the damage. A spell tells you which dice to roll for damage and whether to add any modifiers.” AoA isn’t a weapon, so no need to use the first sentence; and the spell doesn’t tell us to roll any dice, so we can ignore the second.

And if it doesn't tell you to roll any damage dice, then you can quite happily stop reading from the damage roll subheading, and read from this mythical "flat damage" subheading you seem to think exists.

[Chronos]

Here's a cite that there's some damage that doesn't involve a damage roll: On page 215 of the Player's Handbook, left column, starting about halfway down the page, it describes a source of damage that isn't a damage roll.

[Kadesh]

Here's a cite that there's some damage that doesn't involve a damage roll: On page 215 of the Player's Handbook, left column, starting about halfway down the page, it describes a source of damage that isn't a damage roll.

Which does precisely nothing, because the Damage rules only ever say that Damage Rolls remove from hit points. Try to keep up.

[youtellatale]

Draconic sorc and curse only add damage to damage rolls, and AoA isn't a damage roll.

Also, the PHB errata says that you can only add the CHA modifier to 1 damage roll. So let's just say that you can add it to damage that isn't rolled. Well you can do it one time, but that's all. And that's actually written in the rules. As far as Hexblade's Curse I mean that's up for debate I suppose but I actually tend to side with those saying that flat damage IS a damage roll. When the PHB says "Each weapon, spell, and harmfull monster ability specifies the damage it deals." right underneath the heading called "Damage Rolls" it seems to roll up that way. So to me you'd be one use of the Elemental Affinity because that's what the errata says, and then use Hexblade's Curse whenever possible. It's not overpowered either way frankly. There is far more cheese than this out there. I think it's kinda cool actually.


(FYI as I read the PHB more and more here I felt myself switching sides, if you can't tell from my response)

[JackPhoenix]

Which does precisely nothing, because the Damage rules only ever say that Damage Rolls remove from hit points. Try to keep up.

Specific vs. general. General rule is that you'll roll a dice to see how much damage you've caused.

AoA specifically causes damage without rolling anything. Try to think.

[Kadesh]

Specific vs. general. General rule is that you'll roll a dice to see how much damage you've caused.

AoA specifically causes damage without rolling anything. Try to think.

Thereby, given that most damage is a damage roll, that exception also allows Draconic Sorcerer and Hexblade Curse to work. Or is that specific not allowed, but yours is? Sorry, you guys are turning yourselves inside and out, and I feel so bad for you.

Thunk harder again.

[JackPhoenix]

Thereby, given that most damage is a damage roll, that exception also allows Draconic Sorcerer and Hexblade Curse to work. Or is that specific not allowed, but yours is? Sorry, you guys are turning yourselves inside and out, and I feel so bad for you.

Thunk harder again.

What "specific"? Draconic sorcerer and Hexblade Curse specifically require damage roll to work. No roll, no extra damage. But don't worry, I understand that fact may be a little hard for you to grasp, no need to feel bad for me for having to explain it to you.

[Kadesh]

What "specific"? Draconic sorcerer and Hexblade Curse specifically require damage roll to work. No roll, no extra damage. But don't worry, I understand that fact may be a little hard for you to grasp, no need to feel bad for me for having to explain it to you.

To deal damage, you must roll damage. That is clear from the rules. If it's an exception to the normal damage rules that it deals damage without needing to roll, then that means that things which normally trigger on a damage roll (such as loss of Hit Points) take effect even though it's a flat damage roll. The same exception allows DS and HC to trigger.

Gotta love exceptions.

Or maybe you don't like logic?

[JackPhoenix]

To deal damage, you must roll damage. That is clear from the rules. If it's an exception to the normal damage rules that it deals damage without needing to roll, then that means that things which normally trigger on a damage roll (such as loss of Hit Points) take effect even though it's a flat damage roll. The same exception allows DS and HC to trigger.

Gotta love exceptions.

Or maybe you don't like logic?

I do like logic, but I don't think you understand what logic is.

The whole point of specific exception is that it works differently from general rule. General rule is that damage roll consists of rolling the appropriate damage di(c)e and then adding various modifiers and other features, like Hexblade Curse.
Specific exception (in the case of AoA) is that it causes set amount of damage, with no dice rolling involved. If it was also supposed to add any modifiers, like the general rules for damage rolls says, it would need to specifically say so, because by its very nature as an specific exception, it ignores the general rule.

[Kadesh]

Edit: had a rethink, I'll let you feel like you're right. Have a nice night.

[JackPhoenix]

Dunning Kruger is strong here.

Well, you've realized it, so it no longer applies.

[NaughtyTiger]

Oh no! Damage Rolls occurs under the combat heading.
Ergo you an only take damage during combat.

[bid]

To deal damage, you must roll damage.

Which is not the same as to take damage.

If you can't be constructive, don't bother.

[Kadesh]

Which is not the same as to take damage.

If you can't be constructive, don't bother.

Provide source for how to take damage without rolli g for it. Sorry, the rules don't work the way you want them to just because you think they're not helpful. Wind your next in too, by the way.

[NaughtyTiger]

Provide source for how to take damage without rolli g for it. Sorry, the rules don't work the way you want them to just because you think they're not helpful. Wind your next in too, by the way.

as you point out, the only way to take damage is the section Damage Rolls.
but this section occurs under the heading Combat.

provide a source for how to take damage from a trap, a fall, a glyph of warding outside of combat.
either you can't take damage, or the rules are crappy

[MThurston]

To deal damage, you must roll damage. That is clear from the rules. If it's an exception to the normal damage rules that it deals damage without needing to roll, then that means that things which normally trigger on a damage roll (such as loss of Hit Points) take effect even though it's a flat damage roll. The same exception allows DS and HC to trigger.

Gotta love exceptions.

Or maybe you don't like logic?

I think it would be childish to tell someone that at level 1-4, the GFB does not trigger Hex if the extra target is by the flames.

[Malifice]

Guys chill.

Its not that big a deal.

[Kadesh]

as you point out, the only way to take damage is the section Damage Rolls.
but this section occurs under the heading Combat.

provide a source for how to take damage from a trap, a fall, a glyph of warding outside of combat.
either you can't take damage, or the rules are crappy

Was it your intention to make a point that proves my point that 'RAW' is a useless basis to fall back on? Like the original poster tried to do?

Or is it more likely that that AoA is also as badly written like everything else WotC has produced and that the assumption that all damage is a roll is expected, and therefore something that effects it.

[noob]

Each weapon, spell, and harmful monster ability specifies the damage it deals. You roll the damage die or dice, add any modifiers, and apply the damage to your target. Magic weapons, special abilities, and other factors can grant a bonus to damage.

So for any spell you roll the legendary damage dice no matter what.
So when you cast sleep or mage armor or expeditious retreat you roll the damage dice.
It is just that the damage is not inflicted to the opponent but you still roll the unique dice called "the damage die or dice"
All the spells specifies the damage it deals but even when it does not deals damage you roll a damage dice.

[Kadesh]

So for any spell you roll the legendary damage dice no matter what.
So when you cast sleep or mage armor or expeditious retreat you roll the damage dice.
It is just that the damage is not inflicted to the opponent but you still roll the unique dice called "the damage die or dice"
All the spells specifies the damage it deals but even when it does not deals damage you roll a damage dice.

How can you quote the rules and then immediately post yourself wrong?

[MaXenzie]

Just an FYI, unarmed attacks don't have a damage roll and thus do not benefit from critical hits RAW.

Which means AoA (which deals flat damage, identically to unarmed attacks) would not benefit from any bonus to a damage roll.

[Kadesh]

Just an FYI, unarmed attacks don't have a damage roll and thus do not benefit from critical hits RAW.

Which means AoA (which deals flat damage, identically to unarmed attacks) would not benefit from any bonus to a damage roll.

Thanks for weighing MaXenzie - out of interest, do you have a source for that RAW?

[noob]

How can you quote the rules and then immediately post yourself wrong?

The rule did not say you had to roll the damage dice only if the spell dealt damage and the enumeration of things that triggers the rule includes all the spells.
So when you cast a spell you roll a damage dice not that it would do anything but you have to roll it.
If they said "harmful X or y or Z" with y being spells the rule would not be disfunctional but it said "Each weapon, spell, and harmful monster ability specifies the damage it deals. You roll the damage die or dice"
So each weapon, each spell and each harmful monster ability specifies the damage it deals (for example it specifies it does deals _ damage by writing nothing about damage) and you have to roll the damage dice because they did not specify the spells or weapons triggering the rule had to be harmful (they could have by saying "each harmful weapon or spell or monster ability" but they did not: they used the words in the wrong order).