(A)D&D Without Humans

[SirKazum]

I've been on a roll of looking at old 2E AD&D books lately, and I'm particularly fascinated by the racial Complete Books, and how well-rounded they are in terms of covering all character creation needs for the respective races. Since I love both toying with houserules that add a twist to campaign, and creating fictional worlds / campaign settings, I've been getting an idea for a 2E AD&D setting/campaign without humans or anything that directly refers to or requires humans. Sort of a houserule-inspired worldbuilding thing. I don't have a lot to show so far (other than a list of 2E AD&D-applicable houserules I could show if anyone's interested), just some general ideas about the Dawn vs. Dusk division (which I came up with to avoid using words such as "demihuman" and "humanoid") and some recent events that have shaped the setting to make it more "humanoid"-friendly.

Anyone here toyed with human-free RPG settings, regardless of the exact system? How did it go? Any interesting world-building ideas in that topic?

Here's what I've got so far:

Spoiler: Dawn, Dusk etc. - Gods and Mortal Races

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This world's mythology involves a separation of the gods in a few categories, based on when/how they emerged. The world's mortal races are divided along similar lines, generally following their patron or creator deity's classification. Very roughly speaking, the scheme (focused mostly on the gods for didactic purposes) is as follows:

Dragon Deities: These deities are all much older than the world itself. Io, the progenitor, is credited with creating the heavens, and (in some interpretations) the very beginnings of reality itself. Their mortal(ish) progeny are dragons.

Giant Deities: The eldest among them are also older than the world; Annam, their progenitor, is usually credited with creating the world itself. Some younger giantish deities were born after the world was already in place, however. They created the giants (at least the "true" ones), and are their patrons.

Dawn Deities: The elders among these deities emerged with the dawn of the world's first day, although they had children over the eras. They created the elves, dwarves, gnomes and halflings, collectively known as "Dawn Races".

Dusk Deities: Their progenitors emerged when night fell on the world for the first time, after an eon-long day. They too had divine children of their own. They created and sponsor a variety of races such as orcs, goblinoids, ogres, gnolls and many more, collectively called "Dusk Races". A war between Dawn and Dusk erupted after they and their mortal children emerged, which came to an end only after Io intervened to end the First Night, creating the day-night cycle as a way of imposing balance upon the world.

Twilight Deities: These are the deities that emerged either at the First Dawn, the First Dusk, or some point in-between (as well as their progeny), but which decided to stay neutral in the war of Dawn versus Dusk, removing themselves from both pantheons and forming a third one. They're associated with Fairies and other sylvan creatures, as well as with some other, more isolated creatures such as aarakocra, ki-rin and tritons.

Midnight Deities: A dark and mysterious group that made themselves known at the deepest, darkest point of the First Night, although they appeared to be much older. It's unknown whether they actually emerged during the First Night, if they emerged during the First Day but in the deep underground where no light had ever touched, or even before the world's creation, in unknown distant planes. They're associated mostly with Underdark creatures such as beholders and mind flayers, and also with some evil creatures such as hags.

Spoiler: The Iron Tide

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The most critical historical movement in the Duskfall setting, and what gives it its name (as in, the rise of the Dusk Races), is the “Iron Tide”, as the conquests of Grankhul the Overlord’s Horde of Hordes became known. The pivotal point for the Iron Tide is the Battle of Dul Magornak (BDM), the first of Grankhul’s victories, often seen as the starting point of his campaign. The timeline is as follows:

BDM -33 years: Togor the Reader, an orc (witch doctor/thief) with a rather odd intellectual disposition, set off to learn the ways of the Dawn Races, especially the elves and dwarves. Given the distaste those races have for orcs, most of his knowledge was acquired without their consent, from stolen books which he studied furiously (hence his moniker).

BDM -12 years: Already an aging orc, Togor sought the protection of Morkhul, an orc chieftain, who kept him as an entertainer and soothsayer, caring little for his acquired knowledge.

BDM -7 years: At Togor’s insistence, he was allowed to tutor a young Grankhul, Morkhul’s eldest son and possible heir. Togor began imparting the knowledge of the Dawn Races upon Grankhul; due to Morkhul’s distaste for what he saw as “irrelevant nonsense”, this instruction focused mostly on warfare and military studies.

BDM -2 years: Togor dies of natural causes.

Battle of Dul Magornak: Already a strong fighter and capable of leading a warband of his own, Grankhul insisted on putting his theoretical military knowledge to the test on a daring raid on Dul Magornak, a dwarven stronghold close to his father’s stomping grounds, whose warriors posed a constant threat to the local orc clans. Such an assault was considered suicidal by conventional orc wisdom; however, Morkhul decided to grant his son command of a warband for this purpose, partly to test his supposed heir’s mettle, partly due to curiosity about the practicality of Togor’s teaching, and partly as an opportunity to get rid of a pesky and potentially dangerous upstart. Against all expectation, Grankhul emerges victorious from the battle; the fact that the dwarves didn’t expect the orcs to use sophisticated combat tactics contributed to a lot of it. All able dwarf warriors from the stronghold are either killed or driven away, and the surviving women and children are enslaved. Dul Magornak becomes an orc fortress.

Hearing of Grankhul’s victory, local orc outlaws that remained from a defeated and disbanded clan joined his warband, forming the beginnings of the Horde of Hordes. Using Dul Magornak as his base of operations, Grankhul begins raiding local rival clans, handily crushing all who come in his way; however, before combat, he always offers the enemy the option of joining his Horde, pledging their loyalty to him. While at first they refuse the extremely unconventional offer, as his victories start to pile up (and his warband grows, both from leaderless orcs that arrived here and there and from survivors of defeated rival clans that were allowed to join), more and more orcs start seeing sense in joining his cause.

More and more dwarven, elven and gnomish settlements are added to Grankhul’s conquests as the year wears on. Sensing a power void, goblin tribes descend on the region for what sounds like easy pickings, and are soundly defeated by Grankhul’s horde. The survivors are also offered to join the horde, and some do, marking the beginning of a multi-racial Horde of Hordes.

BDM +1 year: As Grankhul’s horde grows in size and power, many orc chieftains become concerned that they’ll be either trampled or forced to submit to this weird upstart. An alliance to resist him forms, which gradually grows over time, as more clans are emboldened to fight him, either to hold on to their local power, maintain their traditional way of life, or even take over the Horde of Hordes. Grankhul is forced to suspend his expansion into Dawn territory in order to fight this Orc War, which wears on for a while, as the alliance initially grows to be much larger than Grankhul’s horde. Morkhul, though initially neutral (largely out of hope that Grankhul’s conquests would somehow revert to him, when his son inevitably died in battle), eventually joined the alliance to resist the Horde of Hordes.

BDM +2 years: The Orc War is finished, in Grankhul’s favor. The Horde of Hordes grows significantly toward the end of the war, as formerly opposed clans capitulate and join it. Morkhul is killed by Grankhul in single combat, near the end of the war. Borkhul, Grankhul’s first son, is born this year. The conquests continue.

BDM +3 years: As ogres and gnolls join the Horde of Hordes, Grankhul is declared Overlord of the Iron Tide, in a ceremony presided by priests of several Dusk deities of different races. The dawn races are significantly concerned by the rising threat, dealing with it in different ways: the dwarves shut down their strongholds, ceasing most commerce and travel in the name of military fortification; the elves try to execute strategic raids in Iron Tide territory, with mixed success; gnomes start migrating away from the Horde, toward distant gnomish holdings; and halflings scatter across the land, seeking whatever protection they can find under other races.

BDM +5 years: Orcs are arriving in droves to join the Horde of Hordes; members of other Dusk races are also increasingly present, and most Dusk races (as well as several Twilight races, such as aarakocras) are represented in the horde. The first major High Elven realm falls to the Iron Tide this year.

BDM +8 years: Most orcs are members of Grankhul’s horde by this point, as well as significant numbers of other races (especially goblinoids). Large swaths of elven, dwarven, gnomish and halfling land have been conquered. Many cities of those races live under orcish yoke, forced to disband all of their fighting forces and pay heavy tributes to the Overlord.

BDM +14 years: Most of the heartland has been overtaken by the Iron Tide. Formerly Dawn Race lands are either occupied by orcs and their Dusk allies, or maintain their original inhabitants but live in servitude to the Overlord. Borkhul begins leading part of the Horde of Hordes, as his father’s second in command. The Dawn Races are increasingly cornered and forced into remote lands.

BDM +20 years: Borkhul dies; his young son Borgoth (of 7 years) is adopted by Grankhul. Grankhul’s younger sons are assigned different regions of the already enormous empire held by the Horde of Hordes.

BDM +22 years: As the Iron Tide reaches across the most remote corners of the land, Grankhul dies of illness, having reached an old age by Orc standards. He had made it known that Borgoth was heir to the title of Overlord; however, as his grandson was still too young to fight, Grankhul’s other sons took it upon themselves to take on the mantle of leadership. This resulted in a war between the Hordes each of them led, which not only stopped the orcs’ expansionist drive dead, but also made them vulnerable to incursions and rebellions by the Dawn Races, which began winning back some of their territory.

BDM +25 years: The Hordes reach a truce, as one of Grankhul’s sons dies, another (Morvar) is allowed to retain his Horde’s independence as long as he stays in his territory and does not interfere with the Iron Tide, and others capitulate to Grakmal, Grankhul’s third son. Borgoth, already old enough to lead orcs in war, sees the weakness of his position and allies with his uncle, assuming a powerless figurehead position meant to give Grakmal legitimacy over the Horde of Hordes. By this point, the Dawn Races have made significant gains in territory over the Iron Tide.

BDM +27 years: Grakmal dies quelling a rebellion, under somewhat suspicious circumstances; a conspiracy involving Borgoth is suspected. Borgoth assumes the title of Overlord, to mixed results. Morvar breaks his truce to attack what he perceives as a weakened Iron Tide; another of Grankhul’s sons, formerly loyal to Grakmal, also turns on Borgoth, accusing him of treason. The Iron Tide’s internal crisis invites more fighting by the Dawn Races. However, despite their gains, both at this point and over the preceding years, they are still puny in comparison to the glory they held before the Battle of Dul Magornak.

[Yora]

When I started worldbuilding, I was very much inspired by the elf book, and the ancient history of the High Forest in the Forgotten Realms. Those ancient days when the world was ruled by elven and dwarven kindoms, humans were barbarian tribes alongside orcs, and there were lots of dragons and giants seemed much more fascinating than generic Fantasyland. Another big influence was Morrowind, which is set in what feels like an alien planet inhabited by dark elves and where humans were one small minority alongside lizardmen, cat people, and orcs.

First I started with humans being the single largest group, but not a majority, and later switches to humans actually being one of the smaller groups. But eventually I realized that these humans were not really serving much of a purpose for the setting and there was only a single group that was thematically interesting. And that group didn't feel like regular humans.

So in my current setting there are no humans. There are wood elves, high elves, snow elves, earth genasi, water genasi, jaguar people, and "half-orcs" (in a world that has neither humans nor orcs). I really love the style of alien jungle worlds that were in fashion with artists in the 70s and 80s, and I think this style comes across even better if you don't have humans.

One argument that frequently gets made against not having humans as the standard peoples is that it would be too confusing for players who would have no frame for reference and it all gets too alien. This might be the case if all the available options for PCs are lizardmen, insect people, and sentient squids. But when you have things like elves, halflings, and orcs, everyone who hasn't been living under a pop culture rock for the last 20 years has a very clear idea what to expect. Actually a much better idea than what a true medieval human would be like.

[sandmote]

My response to the main question is basically to repeat Yora: the dawn races are a good entry point to the series, so removing humans entirely isn't significantly different from anyone else.

I think Thea:The Awakening has a similar light/darkness split between the races, and your pantheons make sense. Although I'd emphasize the Twilight Deities as being a traditional grouping of like-minded deities rather than a single proper pantheon (to make it easier to explain why isolated races are associated with it).

Are there real world conquests you based the Iron Tide on? I kind of want to suggest details to flesh out any overarching point to the conquest. Grankhul could be associated with Ghenghis Kahn based on fighting the tribe he was raised in, the rate of expansion, and what occurs with Morvar. Cyrus the Great could also be a good reference, although Togor could be treated as a a personification of knowledge obtained by Christendom in the crusades and reconquista.

Spoiler: Backpedaling Note

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I don't like taking a real-world culture and re-skinning the people as orc or another fantasy race. However, I do think historical examples make great places to draw from to get sensible details and world building. Better than trying to make up everything from scratch, at least.

[SirKazum]

My response to the main question is basically to repeat Yora: the dawn races are a good entry point to the series, so removing humans entirely isn't significantly different from anyone else.

I think Thea:The Awakening has a similar light/darkness split between the races, and your pantheons make sense. Although I'd emphasize the Twilight Deities as being a traditional grouping of like-minded deities rather than a single proper pantheon (to make it easier to explain why isolated races are associated with it).

Are there real world conquests you based the Iron Tide on? I kind of want to suggest details to flesh out any overarching point to the conquest. Grankhul could be associated with Ghenghis Kahn based on fighting the tribe he was raised in, the rate of expansion, and what occurs with Morvar. Cyrus the Great could also be a good reference, although Togor could be treated as a a personification of knowledge obtained by Christendom in the crusades and reconquista.

Spoiler: Backpedaling Note

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I don't like taking a real-world culture and re-skinning the people as orc or another fantasy race. However, I do think historical examples make great places to draw from to get sensible details and world building. Better than trying to make up everything from scratch, at least.

As for your first point, I'm not sure "Dawn Deities", "Dusk Deities" etc. are quite pantheons in the way we traditionally understand that word, more like categories that include a number of smaller, closer-knit pantheons. I mean, I know I'm the one who used that word in my post, but it may have been misleading. So the Twilight Deities are probably not going to be much of a unified group of any kind. Well, this is all very poorly-defined yet, I'm still working on those concepts.

For your question about Grankhul, he's very deliberately inspired by Genghis Khan and the Golden Horde. I'm not really trying to make a fantasy counterpart for Genghis Khan, just using real history as a source of inspiration, including having a "dissident" Horde led by one of the first great leader's heirs. I loved the Marco Polo series for Netflix and got a bit into researching Genghis Khan and especially how things developed after his death (the series is heavily focused on Genghis's grandson, Kublai Khan), so a lot of that made it into the concept of the Iron Tide. I thought it was a nice template for how a supposedly barbaric people could grow to become the largest and most powerful nation in the world, commanding not only military strength but also the best of the age's culture and knowledge. As for Togor the Reader, I dunno... I just wanted to elaborate the inception of the Iron Tide a bit better than "this one guy just gets it into his head to get conquerin' and does it because he's just that badass", also emphasizing the role of knowledge, which is something I value a lot There are other factors that figure into the rise of the Iron Tide that couldn't fit into the account above too, like a gradual decadence of the Dawn Races' civilizations.

[TheHighWayMan]

Anyone here toyed with human-free RPG settings, regardless of the exact system? How did it go? Any interesting world-building ideas in that topic?

I have experimented with this in the past, and it is worth noting that humans tend to be the glue that hold multiracial civilisations together. Without humans and their extremely diverse viewpoints you are in danger of creating racial-nation states where each race tends to have one (or several) empires and have very little to do with anyone else. This can make it quite difficult for travelling PC groups to adventure as people living in these racial nation states tend to be highly xenophobic and suspicious of other races. Hence a setting like this is best designed for a party that is entirely comprised of one race.

[SirKazum]

Another big influence was Morrowind, which is set in what feels like an alien planet inhabited by dark elves and where humans were one small minority alongside lizardmen, cat people, and orcs.

Never played Morrowind, but I know the Elder Scrolls universe from Skyrim (and from reading a lot about it since I started playing Skyrim ). And yeah, playing right in the middle of the Dunmer lands sounds like a blast. I love the Elder Scrolls world for a lot of reasons, but one of them is how all races (human and otherwise) feel equally important in the setting. I get that that's probably for the purposes of gameplay balance, but still. It feels like non-human races, even weirder ones like Khajit and Argonians, are hardly the afterthought you'd expect them to be in most settings.

One argument that frequently gets made against not having humans as the standard peoples is that it would be too confusing for players who would have no frame for reference and it all gets too alien. This might be the case if all the available options for PCs are lizardmen, insect people, and sentient squids. But when you have things like elves, halflings, and orcs, everyone who hasn't been living under a pop culture rock for the last 20 years has a very clear idea what to expect. Actually a much better idea than what a true medieval human would be like.

That's a concern I considered for this setting idea, because "having familiar elements to ground your players/audience" is something that people hammer all the time. But I guess you're right, elves and dwarves especially are plenty familiar for anyone with some experience with fantasy, especially if you keep them "traditional" rather than giving them alternate interpretations.

I have experimented with this in the past, and it is worth noting that humans tend to be the glue that hold multiracial civilisations together. Without humans and their extremely diverse viewpoints you are in danger of creating racial-nation states where each race tends to have one (or several) empires and have very little to do with anyone else. This can make it quite difficult for travelling PC groups to adventure as people living in these racial nation states tend to be highly xenophobic and suspicious of other races. Hence a setting like this is best designed for a party that is entirely comprised of one race.

That's an interesting point. Makes sense. Humans are a great "middleman" race to establish links (trades, multi-racial organizations etc.) between races. But I still believe that you might have something similar without humans without stretching credibility too much. In the setting I'm working on here, for instance, the "Dawn Races" (elves, dwarves, gnomes and halflings) have good reason to band together, since they need to fight off the threat of the Dusk Races. And the Dusk Races, while they have less of a sense of being under siege, they still might see the value in sticking together to fight against the Dawn side, especially after the Iron Tide created a framework to unify them all. That still leaves you with two enimical sides that would hardly mix, unless of course you create a PC party whose characters are in rather unusual circumstances that brought them together. But otherwise, it sounds like a similar premise to the Warcraft franchise, Alliance vs. Horde... which, come to think of it, is another example that works pretty fine without humans (the Horde side anyways).

[sandmote]

If that's how your pantheons work my previous suggestion about the twilight deities is moot.

For your question about Grankhul, he's very deliberately inspired by Genghis Khan and the Golden Horde. I'm not really trying to make a fantasy counterpart for Genghis Khan, just using real history as a source of inspiration, including having a "dissident" Horde led by one of the first great leader's heirs. I loved the Marco Polo series for Netflix and got a bit into researching Genghis Khan and especially how things developed after his death (the series is heavily focused on Genghis's grandson, Kublai Khan), so a lot of that made it into the concept of the Iron Tide. I thought it was a nice template for how a supposedly barbaric people could grow to become the largest and most powerful nation in the world, commanding not only military strength but also the best of the age's culture and knowledge. As for Togor the Reader, I dunno... I just wanted to elaborate the inception of the Iron Tide a bit better than "this one guy just gets it into his head to get conquerin' and does it because he's just that badass", also emphasizing the role of knowledge, which is something I value a lot There are other factors that figure into the rise of the Iron Tide that couldn't fit into the account above too, like a gradual decadence of the Dawn Races' civilizations.

In that case, I'd probably include bits about an increase in, er, decadence among the dusk races. Some quote from Grankhul commenting on former orc peasants now dressing in silk and having servants to make their food.

I'd probably also flesh out Togor a bit more, considering how much of an impact he had. Perhaps say he gave Grankhul a little bit of non-military instruction of some sort. Probably some sort of pan-dusk ideology based on some event where the dawn races previously worked together at some point. That sets up the reasoning for a multi-racial Horde of Hordes, and a basis for cooperation between the dawn races in response.

[SirKazum]

Those are some great ideas! Giving it a sort of a "another turn of the wheel of history" vibe. Though I'd rather wait a bit before the Dusk civilization becomes seriously decadent I think Togor would've imparted some non-military wisdom on to Grankhul, yes. I'll see what's that about when I flesh out this story a bit more...

[thorr-kan]

I've been on a roll of looking at old 2E AD&D books lately, and I'm particularly fascinated by the racial Complete Books, and how well-rounded they are in terms of covering all character creation needs for the respective races.

Oh, yeah, I know that sound.

First, listen to Yora. Yora's worldbuilding threads are a good read and there's a lot of good discussion there.

When WotC announced their setting search that resulted in Eberron, I toyed with a halfing/dwarf/gnome world based on the Complete Book and Monster Mythology. I never even went as far as you have, but you're not alone.

I like the mythological and current events back ground. I think you have a setting that's ripe for adventure.

[TheHighWayMan]

That's an interesting point. Makes sense. Humans are a great "middleman" race to establish links (trades, multi-racial organizations etc.) between races. But I still believe that you might have something similar without humans without stretching credibility too much. In the setting I'm working on here, for instance, the "Dawn Races" (elves, dwarves, gnomes and halflings) have good reason to band together, since they need to fight off the threat of the Dusk Races. And the Dusk Races, while they have less of a sense of being under siege, they still might see the value in sticking together to fight against the Dawn side, especially after the Iron Tide created a framework to unify them all. That still leaves you with two enimical sides that would hardly mix, unless of course you create a PC party whose characters are in rather unusual circumstances that brought them together. But otherwise, it sounds like a similar premise to the Warcraft franchise, Alliance vs. Horde... which, come to think of it, is another example that works pretty fine without humans (the Horde side anyways).

I can see where you are coming from, however I am not so sure about the Iron Tide helping unify the Dawn Races, quite the opposite I would think. There was very little sense of cooperation between the Dawn Races before the Iron Tide and even less afterwards. The Dwarfs watched the Iron Tide decimate the Elves for 10 years without making an effort to help Aelfhiem in its time of need. (I don't care how gifted a strategist Grankhul was, not even he would be able to withstand the full might of the world's two largest superpowers had they bth been working in tandem). And later, when each of the Dawn races were being besieged by Grankhul's hordes they would have had very little contact with anyone outside of their own race. All this means that there is highly likely to be a large sense of disgust among members of the Dawn Races when it comes to each-other (especially among the Dwarfs and Elves). Although they are working together to rebuff the Iron Tide's advances this cooperation is at a military level, nothing more. As such although soldiers who have battled the Iron Tide may have more respect for their fellow Dawn races your average citizen wouldn't

[SirKazum]

I can see where you are coming from, however I am not so sure about the Iron Tide helping unify the Dawn Races, quite the opposite I would think. There was very little sense of cooperation between the Dawn Races before the Iron Tide and even less afterwards. The Dwarfs watched the Iron Tide decimate the Elves for 10 years without making an effort to help Aelfhiem in its time of need. (I don't care how gifted a strategist Grankhul was, not even he would be able to withstand the full might of the world's two largest superpowers had they bth been working in tandem). And later, when each of the Dawn races were being besieged by Grankhul's hordes they would have had very little contact with anyone outside of their own race. All this means that there is highly likely to be a large sense of disgust among members of the Dawn Races when it comes to each-other (especially among the Dwarfs and Elves). Although they are working together to rebuff the Iron Tide's advances this cooperation is at a military level, nothing more. As such although soldiers who have battled the Iron Tide may have more respect for their fellow Dawn races your average citizen wouldn't

Oh no, that's not what I meant. I meant the mythological background, the primeval Dawn vs. Dusk war in the beginning of the world's history, and the sense of a Dawn community that would have arisen back then. Even after that war subsided (and before the Iron Tide), with the quantity and ferocity of Dusk folks around, I can see how the Dawn races might feel like they need to band together to "defend civilization". In fact, the aloofness of these races toward each other in the Iron Tide, and their lack of cooperation, is part of what I mean by their "decadence", which allowed the Iron Tide to happen. I've got it in my head that, if Grankhul had lived and tried to do the same thing centuries before, he might fail right at the beginning because of that - in fact, who knows, maybe such a "Horde of Hordes" sparks up once in a while, but this is the first time that conditions were just right to allow it to succeed.

[TheHighWayMan]

Oh no, that's not what I meant. I meant the mythological background, the primeval Dawn vs. Dusk war in the beginning of the world's history, and the sense of a Dawn community that would have arisen back then. Even after that war subsided (and before the Iron Tide), with the quantity and ferocity of Dusk folks around, I can see how the Dawn races might feel like they need to band together to "defend civilization". In fact, the aloofness of these races toward each other in the Iron Tide, and their lack of cooperation, is part of what I mean by their "decadence", which allowed the Iron Tide to happen. I've got it in my head that, if Grankhul had lived and tried to do the same thing centuries before, he might fail right at the beginning because of that - in fact, who knows, maybe such a "Horde of Hordes" sparks up once in a while, but this is the first time that conditions were just right to allow it to succeed.

Surely because Grankhul was able to so effectively exploit the 'aloofness' among the Dawn races it will have served to incite and inflame the negative feelings between the races, helping bring it into the light for the first time in a very long time. With the Dusk races effectively in a state of Civil War any unity that the Dawn races feel for each other will be much diminished as that pressing need for survival at all costs is no longer there. Now it is just a matter of taking back their stolen land from the Dusk Races which would come firmly under the purview of the military rather than your average Joe. This semi-post-war period tends to involve a lot of finger pointing at who was to blame for the various mistakes that were made in the war. If we look at real world examples of this it can be seen that this leads to a rise in nationalist tensions and often other racial groups are scapegoated by politicians and generals desperate to escape the repercussions of their actions. (Take a look at the break up of Yugoslavia for a good example of this).

[Xania]

Yes, my new setting is still being constructed but the first thing to do was to get rid of humans, they could have never existed or became extint after turning into halflings, dwarves or grimlocks.

[Bohandas]

it is worth noting that humans tend to be the glue that hold multiracial civilisations together.

Yeah, but only because of lazy writing

[Clockwork333]

I've been on a roll of looking at old 2E AD&D books lately, and I'm particularly fascinated by the racial Complete Books, and how well-rounded they are in terms of covering all character creation needs for the respective races. Since I love both toying with houserules that add a twist to campaign, and creating fictional worlds / campaign settings, I've been getting an idea for a 2E AD&D setting/campaign without humans or anything that directly refers to or requires humans. Sort of a houserule-inspired worldbuilding thing. I don't have a lot to show so far (other than a list of 2E AD&D-applicable houserules I could show if anyone's interested), just some general ideas about the Dawn vs. Dusk division (which I came up with to avoid using words such as "demihuman" and "humanoid") and some recent events that have shaped the setting to make it more "humanoid"-friendly.

Anyone here toyed with human-free RPG settings, regardless of the exact system? How did it go? Any interesting world-building ideas in that topic?

I don't have any experience with 2E but I have always enjoyed the concept of a setting without humans, or at the very least less human-centric.

I really enjoy your Dawn/Dusk race divisions and the Iron Tide plotline, how much cultural crossover is there between the Dawn races living under the Iron Tide's rule though?
It'd be interesting to eventually see Dwarves and the like more loyal to the Dusk races than the opposing Dawn forces, or even treacherous dusk chieftains or warlords who work with the Dawn races to get independence or a better position in their own lands.


As for my own ideas... I've been toying with the concept of a continent split between Three massive nations in a cold war teetering on the brink of erupting into conflict.

One an Empire ruled by elves, and populated by other fae/plant races (fir bolgs, Mycon-thallids), with armies of Thri-kreen serving as the main fighting force, who want to turn the entire continent into one big verdant paradise.

The next a union of monarchies, made up of dwarves, gnomes, and Vedalken (From MTG) who have manufactured Warforged in huge numbers to defend against the expected attacks from the elven Empire.

The last is a federation of orcs, various goblinoids, kobolds and Dragonborn, who have been driven from their lands as the two rivals expanded and are now squished into a wedge of mountainous volcanic and desert areas between them, and are slowly plotting their revenge bolstered by the Dragons in the region.

[Leafar]

I've been on a roll of looking at old 2E AD&D books lately, and I'm particularly fascinated by the racial Complete Books, and how well-rounded they are in terms of covering all character creation needs for the respective races. Since I love both toying with houserules that add a twist to campaign, and creating fictional worlds / campaign settings, I've been getting an idea for a 2E AD&D setting/campaign without humans or anything that directly refers to or requires humans. Sort of a houserule-inspired worldbuilding thing. I don't have a lot to show so far (other than a list of 2E AD&D-applicable houserules I could show if anyone's interested), just some general ideas about the Dawn vs. Dusk division (which I came up with to avoid using words such as "demihuman" and "humanoid") and some recent events that have shaped the setting to make it more "humanoid"-friendly.

Anyone here toyed with human-free RPG settings, regardless of the exact system? How did it go? Any interesting world-building ideas in that topic?

Here's what I've got so far:

Spoiler: Dawn, Dusk etc. - Gods and Mortal Races

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This world's mythology involves a separation of the gods in a few categories, based on when/how they emerged. The world's mortal races are divided along similar lines, generally following their patron or creator deity's classification. Very roughly speaking, the scheme (focused mostly on the gods for didactic purposes) is as follows:

Dragon Deities: These deities are all much older than the world itself. Io, the progenitor, is credited with creating the heavens, and (in some interpretations) the very beginnings of reality itself. Their mortal(ish) progeny are dragons.

Giant Deities: The eldest among them are also older than the world; Annam, their progenitor, is usually credited with creating the world itself. Some younger giantish deities were born after the world was already in place, however. They created the giants (at least the "true" ones), and are their patrons.

Dawn Deities: The elders among these deities emerged with the dawn of the world's first day, although they had children over the eras. They created the elves, dwarves, gnomes and halflings, collectively known as "Dawn Races".

Dusk Deities: Their progenitors emerged when night fell on the world for the first time, after an eon-long day. They too had divine children of their own. They created and sponsor a variety of races such as orcs, goblinoids, ogres, gnolls and many more, collectively called "Dusk Races". A war between Dawn and Dusk erupted after they and their mortal children emerged, which came to an end only after Io intervened to end the First Night, creating the day-night cycle as a way of imposing balance upon the world.

Twilight Deities: These are the deities that emerged either at the First Dawn, the First Dusk, or some point in-between (as well as their progeny), but which decided to stay neutral in the war of Dawn versus Dusk, removing themselves from both pantheons and forming a third one. They're associated with Fairies and other sylvan creatures, as well as with some other, more isolated creatures such as aarakocra, ki-rin and tritons.

Midnight Deities: A dark and mysterious group that made themselves known at the deepest, darkest point of the First Night, although they appeared to be much older. It's unknown whether they actually emerged during the First Night, if they emerged during the First Day but in the deep underground where no light had ever touched, or even before the world's creation, in unknown distant planes. They're associated mostly with Underdark creatures such as beholders and mind flayers, and also with some evil creatures such as hags.

Spoiler: The Iron Tide

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The most critical historical movement in the Duskfall setting, and what gives it its name (as in, the rise of the Dusk Races), is the “Iron Tide”, as the conquests of Grankhul the Overlord’s Horde of Hordes became known. The pivotal point for the Iron Tide is the Battle of Dul Magornak (BDM), the first of Grankhul’s victories, often seen as the starting point of his campaign. The timeline is as follows:

BDM -33 years: Togor the Reader, an orc (witch doctor/thief) with a rather odd intellectual disposition, set off to learn the ways of the Dawn Races, especially the elves and dwarves. Given the distaste those races have for orcs, most of his knowledge was acquired without their consent, from stolen books which he studied furiously (hence his moniker).

BDM -12 years: Already an aging orc, Togor sought the protection of Morkhul, an orc chieftain, who kept him as an entertainer and soothsayer, caring little for his acquired knowledge.

BDM -7 years: At Togor’s insistence, he was allowed to tutor a young Grankhul, Morkhul’s eldest son and possible heir. Togor began imparting the knowledge of the Dawn Races upon Grankhul; due to Morkhul’s distaste for what he saw as “irrelevant nonsense”, this instruction focused mostly on warfare and military studies.

BDM -2 years: Togor dies of natural causes.

Battle of Dul Magornak: Already a strong fighter and capable of leading a warband of his own, Grankhul insisted on putting his theoretical military knowledge to the test on a daring raid on Dul Magornak, a dwarven stronghold close to his father’s stomping grounds, whose warriors posed a constant threat to the local orc clans. Such an assault was considered suicidal by conventional orc wisdom; however, Morkhul decided to grant his son command of a warband for this purpose, partly to test his supposed heir’s mettle, partly due to curiosity about the practicality of Togor’s teaching, and partly as an opportunity to get rid of a pesky and potentially dangerous upstart. Against all expectation, Grankhul emerges victorious from the battle; the fact that the dwarves didn’t expect the orcs to use sophisticated combat tactics contributed to a lot of it. All able dwarf warriors from the stronghold are either killed or driven away, and the surviving women and children are enslaved. Dul Magornak becomes an orc fortress.

Hearing of Grankhul’s victory, local orc outlaws that remained from a defeated and disbanded clan joined his warband, forming the beginnings of the Horde of Hordes. Using Dul Magornak as his base of operations, Grankhul begins raiding local rival clans, handily crushing all who come in his way; however, before combat, he always offers the enemy the option of joining his Horde, pledging their loyalty to him. While at first they refuse the extremely unconventional offer, as his victories start to pile up (and his warband grows, both from leaderless orcs that arrived here and there and from survivors of defeated rival clans that were allowed to join), more and more orcs start seeing sense in joining his cause.

More and more dwarven, elven and gnomish settlements are added to Grankhul’s conquests as the year wears on. Sensing a power void, goblin tribes descend on the region for what sounds like easy pickings, and are soundly defeated by Grankhul’s horde. The survivors are also offered to join the horde, and some do, marking the beginning of a multi-racial Horde of Hordes.

BDM +1 year: As Grankhul’s horde grows in size and power, many orc chieftains become concerned that they’ll be either trampled or forced to submit to this weird upstart. An alliance to resist him forms, which gradually grows over time, as more clans are emboldened to fight him, either to hold on to their local power, maintain their traditional way of life, or even take over the Horde of Hordes. Grankhul is forced to suspend his expansion into Dawn territory in order to fight this Orc War, which wears on for a while, as the alliance initially grows to be much larger than Grankhul’s horde. Morkhul, though initially neutral (largely out of hope that Grankhul’s conquests would somehow revert to him, when his son inevitably died in battle), eventually joined the alliance to resist the Horde of Hordes.

BDM +2 years: The Orc War is finished, in Grankhul’s favor. The Horde of Hordes grows significantly toward the end of the war, as formerly opposed clans capitulate and join it. Morkhul is killed by Grankhul in single combat, near the end of the war. Borkhul, Grankhul’s first son, is born this year. The conquests continue.

BDM +3 years: As ogres and gnolls join the Horde of Hordes, Grankhul is declared Overlord of the Iron Tide, in a ceremony presided by priests of several Dusk deities of different races. The dawn races are significantly concerned by the rising threat, dealing with it in different ways: the dwarves shut down their strongholds, ceasing most commerce and travel in the name of military fortification; the elves try to execute strategic raids in Iron Tide territory, with mixed success; gnomes start migrating away from the Horde, toward distant gnomish holdings; and halflings scatter across the land, seeking whatever protection they can find under other races.

BDM +5 years: Orcs are arriving in droves to join the Horde of Hordes; members of other Dusk races are also increasingly present, and most Dusk races (as well as several Twilight races, such as aarakocras) are represented in the horde. The first major High Elven realm falls to the Iron Tide this year.

BDM +8 years: Most orcs are members of Grankhul’s horde by this point, as well as significant numbers of other races (especially goblinoids). Large swaths of elven, dwarven, gnomish and halfling land have been conquered. Many cities of those races live under orcish yoke, forced to disband all of their fighting forces and pay heavy tributes to the Overlord.

BDM +14 years: Most of the heartland has been overtaken by the Iron Tide. Formerly Dawn Race lands are either occupied by orcs and their Dusk allies, or maintain their original inhabitants but live in servitude to the Overlord. Borkhul begins leading part of the Horde of Hordes, as his father’s second in command. The Dawn Races are increasingly cornered and forced into remote lands.

BDM +20 years: Borkhul dies; his young son Borgoth (of 7 years) is adopted by Grankhul. Grankhul’s younger sons are assigned different regions of the already enormous empire held by the Horde of Hordes.

BDM +22 years: As the Iron Tide reaches across the most remote corners of the land, Grankhul dies of illness, having reached an old age by Orc standards. He had made it known that Borgoth was heir to the title of Overlord; however, as his grandson was still too young to fight, Grankhul’s other sons took it upon themselves to take on the mantle of leadership. This resulted in a war between the Hordes each of them led, which not only stopped the orcs’ expansionist drive dead, but also made them vulnerable to incursions and rebellions by the Dawn Races, which began winning back some of their territory.

BDM +25 years: The Hordes reach a truce, as one of Grankhul’s sons dies, another (Morvar) is allowed to retain his Horde’s independence as long as he stays in his territory and does not interfere with the Iron Tide, and others capitulate to Grakmal, Grankhul’s third son. Borgoth, already old enough to lead orcs in war, sees the weakness of his position and allies with his uncle, assuming a powerless figurehead position meant to give Grakmal legitimacy over the Horde of Hordes. By this point, the Dawn Races have made significant gains in territory over the Iron Tide.

BDM +27 years: Grakmal dies quelling a rebellion, under somewhat suspicious circumstances; a conspiracy involving Borgoth is suspected. Borgoth assumes the title of Overlord, to mixed results. Morvar breaks his truce to attack what he perceives as a weakened Iron Tide; another of Grankhul’s sons, formerly loyal to Grakmal, also turns on Borgoth, accusing him of treason. The Iron Tide’s internal crisis invites more fighting by the Dawn Races. However, despite their gains, both at this point and over the preceding years, they are still puny in comparison to the glory they held before the Battle of Dul Magornak.

This looks really good, but do you think a world without humans would really work?

[SirKazum]

This looks really good, but do you think a world without humans would really work?

Um... that's the whole point of this exercise?

What do you think about it? What are the main problems you see in a world without humans?