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  1. - Top - End - #331
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2017

    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    I was under the impression that all Extraordinary attack forms were considered natural weapons. This means normal natural weapons, but also more strange ones like: constrict, poison, burn, rake, trample, overrun, slime, acid, impale, beard, blood drain, crush, tail sweep, whirlwind, vortex, cold, heat, spittle, quills, combustion, and even more from the monster manual.
    Spit attacks, spore attacks, spray attacks, powerful charge, rend, disease, death throes, are the more questionable applications, but still work without being too complex. It also puts to rest the fact that you can encounter a filth fever that does more damage and has a different dc than other filth fever.

    I only went as far as lycanthrope for my examples when searching the monster manual, and probably missed more examples. But from this small sample of the nearly innumerable natural attack forms that 3.5 has arrayed for us, shows that it can and should work.

    Heat, whirlwind, vortex, poison, trample, etc are all abilities given by creatures with more than one size category that shows that they do increase in damage as they get bigger.

    I have always played 3.5 this way and could be wrong, but I'd love to see what you guys think. If it's too off topic I can relocate this to another thread, but this is the final thing I wanted to point out.
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    I feel like telling the ghost of Gary Gygax to hold your beer is a good way to suddenly stop being the GM, but I have to admit that this would probably be remarkably effective. At what, I dunno, but effective.
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  2. - Top - End - #332
    Titan in the Playground
    Thurbane's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Terra Australis

    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    According to D&D Glossary:

    Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach.

    Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack -- generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or armlike limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.

    Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20.

    When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature's remaining natural weapons are secondary.

    The primary weapon is given in the creature's Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature's Full Attack entry. A creature's primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature's physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature's full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a -5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a -2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity.

    Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do. The most common are summarized below.

    Bite: The creature attacks with its mouth, dealing piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage.

    Claw or Talon: The creature rips with a sharp appendage, dealing piercing and slashing damage.

    Gore: The creature spears the opponent with an antler, horn, or similar appendage, dealing piercing damage.

    Slap or Slam: The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.

    Sting: The creature stabs with a stinger, dealing piercing damage. Sting attacks usually deal damage from poison in addition to hit point damage.

    Tentacle: The creature flails at opponents with a powerful tentacle, dealing bludgeoning (and sometimes slashing) damage.

    Source: PHB, MM, MM3
    My understanding is that unless something requires an attack roll, it isn't considered a weapon. Poison is, in effect, a rider effect, same as fire damage from a +1 Flaming Longsword.

    You might make an argument that is spit directly at an opponent, and requires and attack roll of it's own, may be considered a natural weapon; but not poison that is delivered by a bite or sting....

    Saying that someone reading RAW differently than you is "home brewing or house ruling, but that's fine" doesn't make you right, it just makes you seem pompous.

  3. - Top - End - #333
    Barbarian in the Playground

    Join Date
    May 2016

    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by Falontani View Post
    I was under the impression that all Extraordinary attack forms were considered natural weapons...

    ..If it's too off topic I can relocate this to another thread, but this is the final thing I wanted to point out.
    I would be interested in talking about this more, probably in a different thread. I think the definition is much narrower than you're using, but I think I like your way better. There are plenty of monsters with energy-based or chemical-based attacks that are just useless because there aren't any options anywhere for advancing them (like arrowhawks and their electricity ray, the will-O'-wisp and its shock, the lantern archon and its light rays, etc). I don't see much reason why that kind of attack should be barred from improvements, so letting them have access to some natural-weapon enhancers might be kind of nice.

    Anyway yeah, I think it's probably better to take it to a different thread.

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