The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

[javcs]

It's pretty meh.

You're locked into a dumb melee bruiser, but if you wanted anything else, you wouldn't play one of these anyways.

I'm not sure it scales particularly well, but it's not like dumb melee bruisers do particularly well at higher levels in the first place. You aren't going to be any better, but nor will you be worse.


The role you fill is a bad one, but filling it solely with class levels would not be an improvement of much significance, if any.
I'm going to go with +0. Probably on the weaker side of +0, but that's as much the role you're locked into as anything else.

Edit: I wouldn't play one, but I wouldn't normally play a dumb melee bruiser anyways.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It's pretty meh. [...] I wouldn't play one, but I wouldn't normally play a dumb melee bruiser anyways.

This.

I would (draconic) polymorph into one of these, because that's all they're good for.
Typical 9th-level gishes (sorcadin, swiftblade, JPM, RKV) learn how to be a cave troll right around the level actual cave trolls come online, and they bring a ton of additional class features with them.

LA -0 for me.

[Remuko]

This.

I would (draconic) polymorph into one of these, because that's all they're good for.
Typical 9th-level gishes (sorcadin, swiftblade, JPM, RKV) learn how to be a cave troll right around the level actual cave trolls come online, and they bring a ton of additional class features with them.

LA -0 for me.

this makes sense to me. -0

[OgresAreCute]

This.

I would (draconic) polymorph into one of these, because that's all they're good for.
Typical 9th-level gishes (sorcadin, swiftblade, JPM, RKV) learn how to be a cave troll right around the level actual cave trolls come online, and they bring a ton of additional class features with them.

LA -0 for me.

While I understand the sentiment, I'm not sure I agree with comparing a tier 4 beatstick to a tier 2 or 1 fullcasting gish.

[Inevitability]

Cave troll votes:

-0: 9 votes
+0: 10 votes

The +0 squad barely pulls ahead, and the cave troll shall receive their favored assignment.

[Inevitability]

Troll, Crystalline

Another weird troll offshoot!

Crystalline trolls have 10 giant RHD, ability scores that are a bit less impressive than the cave troll's, mental stats that are low, but not abysmal, weak (1d6) claws and bite, acid immunity, and a moderate rend ability.

Most notably, they have regeneration 5 that's overcome only by sonic damage (which they are also vulnerable to). That's pretty huge: while fire and acid aren't the most uncommon damage types, sonic is found on only a handful of monsters.

Note that this doesn't mean most foes can't kill you: if all else fails piling dirt on your face and smacking you for a few minutes lets them execute you. It does, however, mean that during combat almost no foes can permanently keep a crystalline troll down, and that barring a TPK, combat is almost never truly dangerous.

That said, no matter how nice the regeneration is, ultimately I don't feel like the crystalline troll's offensive presence is sufficient to do it justice. -0 LA for now, but open to suggestions for +0.

[OgresAreCute]

As far as I can tell, the only thing this has over a normal troll is +2 charisma, +2 natural armor and immunity to acid, in addition to a more difficult to overcome regeneration. The cave troll at least had some beefy stats and a gimmick. If we say the normal troll is balanced at ECL 7, there's no way this thing is a worthwhile pick at ECL 10. With two RHD lopped off it might be playable, with three RHD lopped off it's basically a slightly better troll.

-0.

Also, making a creature that's all about regeneration and regrowth out of inorganic, brittle material is friggin' weird.

[Inevitability]

Also, making a creature that's all about regeneration and regrowth out of inorganic, brittle material is friggin' weird.

Crystal growth is legitimately interesting, though.

[javcs]

Sonic may be relatively rare on monsters, but it's not that hard for casters to get, and at 10 RHD, you're getting into the level ranges where the DM is going to need to rely more on classed up opponents, because, let's be honest, you're getting into the level ranges where the only monsters that are still viable either have some sort of innate magical abilities or have been given class levels, or both. You're also getting into the level ranges where caster supremacy really gets going.

You can't even make like a rogue and UMD your way through. Or go into a casting PRC or go gishy.


LA -0 for the crystal troll.

[Zaq]

I like the crystal troll, but 10 RHD is way too much for something with no real active abilities. -0.

[remetagross]

Oooooh I've already faced one of those!

...but still LA -0. Too many HDs for what they do.

[ViperMagnum357]

LA -0. You would need to shave 3 RHD, maybe 4, to reach parity. This thing has almost nothing going for it besides the Regeneration, and that only takes you so far.

[Efrate]

Regen is nice but its statistically inferior by a long shot to its cave dwelling cousin. -0

[liquidformat]

As far as I can tell, the only thing this has over a normal troll is +2 charisma, +2 natural armor and immunity to acid, in addition to a more difficult to overcome regeneration. The cave troll at least had some beefy stats and a gimmick. If we say the normal troll is balanced at ECL 7, there's no way this thing is a worthwhile pick at ECL 10. With two RHD lopped off it might be playable, with three RHD lopped off it's basically a slightly better troll.

-0.

My thoughts exactly, this is standard troll with 4 extra rhd and nothing to show for it. At least Cave troll got somethings for his 3 extra rhd, I don't think it got enough to justify the 3 extra rhd but it at least got something...

-0

[Blue Jay]

I'll just toe the party line and agree with the Crystalline Troll at LA -0.

Note that this doesn't mean most foes can't kill you: if all else fails piling dirt on your face and smacking you for a few minutes lets them execute you.

You'd still have to use sonic damage to perform the execution, though:

A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage.

If the attack used to deliver a coup de grace is of a type that regeneration converts to nonlethal damage, the coup de grace fails to kill the regenerating creature.

[AMX]

I'll just toe the party line and agree with the Crystalline Troll at LA -0.



You'd still have to use sonic damage to perform the execution, though:

I think the idea is to let the troll die from suffocation ("Regeneration does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation."), the attacks are just to keep it down.

[ViperMagnum357]

You'd still have to use sonic damage to perform the execution, though:

What AMX said above-the regenerating creature dies from drowning/suffocation. The party just keeps hitting them to pile on subdual damage they have to regenerate before they can regain consciousness, until the lack of air kills them. Pretty standard tactic at most levels for dealing with any regenerating critter that is not vulnerable to fire.

[Inevitability]

I think the idea is to let the troll die from suffocation ("Regeneration does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation."), the attacks are just to keep it down.

Exactly what I was getting at, thanks for explaining.

[MeimuHakurei]

What AMX said above-the regenerating creature dies from drowning/suffocation. The party just keeps hitting them to pile on subdual damage they have to regenerate before they can regain consciousness, until the lack of air kills them. Pretty standard tactic at most levels for dealing with any regenerating critter that is not vulnerable to fire.

What about Con damage, Death Effects, negative levels, certain polymorph effects and so on?

[ViperMagnum357]

What about Con damage, Death Effects, negative levels, certain polymorph effects and so on?

Hence 'standard'. Obviously a high level or at least well equipped party will have a few means of crossing them out, hence the qualifier of being a tactic rather than the tactic. A torch can be used to coup de grace a regenerator vulnerable to fire, but a low level or badly depleted party may not have the means to permanently kill something with another type of regeneration at immediate hand. Beating it unconscious then burying it or pushing it underwater can be managed in most environments, even without magic.

[Thurbane]

• Large giant - OK.
• 10 RHD - boo!
• Speed 30 ft - not amazing for a large creature.
• +7 natural AC - underwhelming at ECL 10.
• 2 claws and a bite - OK.
• Rend is OK-ish, in the right build.
• Darkvision 60ft, low light vision, scent - decent senses.
• Immunity to acid - good, but situational.
• Regeneration overcome by sonic - definitely the most noteworthy feature of this beast.
• Vulnerability to sonic - situational, but sucks considering your regeneration.
• Str +12, Dex +2, Con +12, Int -4, Wis -2, Cha -2: net +18. Pretty good, but again, underwhelming at ECL 10, especially compared to many other melee brutes.
• Very limited racial skill list: Listen and Spot are nice, but 2 skills? Nope. I find it amusing that they bother listing bonus languages.

Verdict: LA -0. Melee brute with solid regen is good, but not compared to 10 lost class levels. Hits to ALL mental stats also sucks. Even with Primordial Giant, you're still taking a hit to Wis.

[Blue Jay]

Exactly what I was getting at, thanks for explaining.

My apologies for misunderstanding.

[Thurbane]

So which high HD melee brutes have come out at LA +0? Is Cave Troll the highest (at 9HD)?

[Covenant12]

Verdict: LA -0. Melee brute with solid regen is good, but not compared to 10 lost class levels. Hits to ALL mental stats also sucks. Even with Primordial Giant, you're still taking a hit to Wis.

Much better summary than I'm motivated to do, agree at LA -0.

More HD and much worse than the cave troll nearly everywhere it matters, including full attack and/or charge damage.

Regeneration 5 (sonic) is amazing, even with sonic vulnerability. This guy doesn't do enough damage or have a special effect to scare any real opponent, dwarven defender problem basically. You'll always be the last to die, but you won't do much until they kill everyone else, pound you to -100 and suffocate you.

[Scrollreader]

-0. Being unkillable isn't useful unless you can draw aggro. Might as well be a monk

[javcs]

-0. Being unkillable isn't useful unless you can draw aggro. Might as well be a monk

A monk would be more useful than the crystal troll.



Forest troll is next.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I guess a Thorn and a Cave Troll have to make a party and go on a quest of self-discovery to see if they're +/- 0. Do we have imitation clerics and wizards to round out the party?

I'm pretty sure we do, but they're not near the 0 LA boundary, because caster monsters' ability to both cast and monst makes them generally potent.

Another weird troll offshoot!.

Disappointed by the lack of Discworld references. (Mr. Shine, he diamond!)

So which high HD melee brutes have come out at LA +0? Is Cave Troll the highest (at 9HD)?

Depends on how strictly you define "melee brute". A list of likely candidates at 9 HD or above:

Spoiler

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Chimera (9)
Dragonne (9)
Cadaver Golem (10)
Astral Stalker (12)
Barbed Devil (12)
Beblith (12)
Frost Worm (14)

And plausible ones:

Spoiler

Show

Naityan Rakshasha (9)
Kolyarut (13)
Phasm (15)
Sorrowsworn Demon (18)
Balor (20)
Titan (20)

[Inevitability]

-0 for the crystalline troll, and there was much rejoicing. Expect a following monster soon.

[Inevitability]

Forest Troll

The runts of the troll family, having only 5 RHD and being medium-sized. Then again, less HD tends to be a good thing in the context of this thread.

Forest trolls are some of the smartest trolls out there, being roughly as intelligent as a human. Their physical stats aren't bad (+6 strength and dexterity, +10 constitution), they got weak 1d4 claws and bite, and they have a low climb speed.

The trolls also have a badly-worded Poison ability. It *seems*, but isn't outright stated, that given some time forest trolls can coat their claws and manufactured weapons with a (presumably free?) poison that deals 1d6 constitution damage. That's not bad at all, but it wouldn't hurt for there to be some clearer wording.

Finally, because they're trolls after all, forest trolls have fast healing 5. It's definitely useful, and at low levels even has some notable in-combat effects.

Is all that worth 5 giant RHD? I'm not sure. In terms of damage, the forest troll will find itself outperformed by a lot of monsters, or even some PC races. Toughness-wise, it probably beats many of those, but 'being tough' isn't a combat role. Being a walking poison factory seems like it may have some utility, but it's important to note that nearly-equivalent poison can be produced by a caster with a viper familiar.

For now, I'll assign -0 LA, though again this is a relatively playable -0. Two lost points of BAB and unimpressive strength keep it from entering +0 LA territory. Remove one or two HD and this should be more balanced.

[OgresAreCute]

Losing that second point of BAB really hurts. I think I'd chop off one RHD from this guy before considering using it.

Tentative -0.