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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Oct 2011

    Default Help with a Demilich NPC

    Hello Playground,

    I've tried tinkering with a concept for a while as an NPC for a sort unique set up for a game with multiple DM's. I'm trying to piece together a level 45 (as in 45 class levels) Demilich that was built on an Ur-Priest/Walker of the Wastes. The character is a full blown misotheist and would, if given the chance, wipe out all deities. It goes without saying that the printed stats for dieties aren't in play here. The character has even gone the route of picking up feats from Elder Evil "worship".

    I've tried twice to piece the concept together. The first was during the mythweavers crash and the later attempt I really just didn't like how it came together. I'm trying to come up with a balance of having as many things possible going epic such as divine casting, arcane casting, binding, invocations, maneuvers (he's not always in skull form), and whatever else without losing too much in the way of power when compared to other characters that only dipped into one or two. The idea here is that it represents the fluff of the character having spent the last few millennia scouring the world trying to find any and all esoteric and exotic new sources of power rather than just focusing on one path. Just for a bit of comparison the other epics are a split arcane/divine caster, straight arcane caster, and a gish-ish divine martial. No one's super optimized but all comfortably in the untouchable range for any of the non-epic characters wandering around.

    Due to the nature of the game I can't just homebrew stuff or arbitrarily decide to make something work the way I want since there's multiple DM's. Pretty much everything 3.0 and 3.5 is allowed. Pathfinder is sometimes allowed based on some review but I'm not too worried about including any of that. Even a lot of alternate rules like Taint are in play. Even some 3rd party has been included in a few instances.

    What I have so far:
    Human Male
    Completely non-psionic
    Virtually no classes off the table
    Based in Toril (sorta)
    45 Class levels
    All levels of Walker of the Wastes
    Divine Casting provided by Ur Priest

    How many sub-systems can be made to go epic in a non-optimized game while still mattering power-wise?

    Thanks ahead of time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Friends don't let friends do Starmetal.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Oct 2010

    Default Re: Help with a Demilich NPC

    One thing to note is that turning a dry lich into a demilich might technically be homebrew.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Help with a Demilich NPC

    Quote Originally Posted by Hackulator View Post
    One thing to note is that turning a dry lich into a demilich might technically be homebrew.
    While technically true it's also a time where the stacking template was written before the variant base template. Obvious RAW issue but I don't see a RAI issue there. It was also already given a green light by the group. Dry Lich vs Vanilla Lich was an entirely fluff related choice anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Friends don't let friends do Starmetal.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Oct 2010

    Default Re: Help with a Demilich NPC

    Quote Originally Posted by CIDE View Post
    While technically true it's also a time where the stacking template was written before the variant base template. Obvious RAW issue but I don't see a RAI issue there. It was also already given a green light by the group. Dry Lich vs Vanilla Lich was an entirely fluff related choice anyway.
    Ok if it's been green lit then no worries, was just commenting because you said homebrew was an issue.

    Why Ur Priest in particular?

    If you want some real RAW silliness you can go Bard 7/Ur Priest 2/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 1/Walker in the Waste 10. RAW Walker in the Waste gives you spells "as if you had gained a level in a spellcasting class to which you belonged" before Walker in the Waste. Technically this means you can apply it to Mystic Theurge. this allows you to have The full Walker PrC including being a dry lich with level 9 spells in Divine and Arcane at level 21 with no early entry shenanigans. TSince you have 24 more levels to go you can easily add in initiator classes or whatever other insanity you want, honestly it doesn't really matter when you're a demilich with 45 class levels.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Help with a Demilich NPC

    Quote Originally Posted by Hackulator View Post
    Technically this means you can apply it to Mystic Theurge.
    What's the spellcasting progression for Mystic Theurge, in a vacuum with no other classes taken into consideration?

    It's not a spellcasting class, any more than Walker in the Waste is.

    @ OP: Eldritch Disciple/Theurge would let you progress Eldritch Blast, while maintaining spellcasting. Ur-Priest 2/Walker 10 gives you all 10 levels of Ur-Priest casting and if you don't take any other divine-advancing classes, you still end up with CL 26 on your Ur-Priest spells, before Practiced Spellcaster. On the subject of spells, is Epic Spellcasting allowed? That's a complete game-changer if so, even if you don't use 0 DC epic spell ridiculousness.

    Regarding initiators, with no initiator class levels, you hit IL 17 at class level 34, so any time after that 9th level maneuvers are available, assuming you have the prerequisites of course. If you're going to add maneuvers that's probably the earliest I'd consider it, after you've done everything with casters that you're going to.

    As far as soulmelds go, I've done very little with that.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Oct 2010

    Default Re: Help with a Demilich NPC

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkSoul View Post
    What's the spellcasting progression for Mystic Theurge, in a vacuum with no other classes taken into consideration?

    It's not a spellcasting class, any more than Walker in the Waste is.
    I mean, it's a spellcasting class cause it gives spellcasting. I did say it was a silly RAW interpretation, I wouldn't let someone get away with it in a game I was running unless the whole game was purposely silly builds. The guy is building a 45 class level demilich, silliness seems to be the idea.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Help with a Demilich NPC

    Quote Originally Posted by Hackulator View Post
    Ok if it's been green lit then no worries, was just commenting because you said homebrew was an issue.

    Why Ur Priest in particular?

    If you want some real RAW silliness you can go Bard 7/Ur Priest 2/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 1/Walker in the Waste 10. RAW Walker in the Waste gives you spells "as if you had gained a level in a spellcasting class to which you belonged" before Walker in the Waste. Technically this means you can apply it to Mystic Theurge. this allows you to have The full Walker PrC including being a dry lich with level 9 spells in Divine and Arcane at level 21 with no early entry shenanigans. TSince you have 24 more levels to go you can easily add in initiator classes or whatever other insanity you want, honestly it doesn't really matter when you're a demilich with 45 class levels.
    Ur Priest is mostly a fluff option due to the misotheist nature of the character. I know mechanically you can mostly achieve the same thing by just having a cleric worshiping an ideal or something. Ur Piest, however, is actively working against the gods of the setting simply by existing. While they don't actually get Epic spellcasting progression (maybe? I know there's multiple discussions on that) the character would eventually qualify for the epic spellcasting feat to get epic spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkSoul View Post
    What's the spellcasting progression for Mystic Theurge, in a vacuum with no other classes taken into consideration?

    It's not a spellcasting class, any more than Walker in the Waste is.

    @ OP: Eldritch Disciple/Theurge would let you progress Eldritch Blast, while maintaining spellcasting. Ur-Priest 2/Walker 10 gives you all 10 levels of Ur-Priest casting and if you don't take any other divine-advancing classes, you still end up with CL 26 on your Ur-Priest spells, before Practiced Spellcaster. On the subject of spells, is Epic Spellcasting allowed? That's a complete game-changer if so, even if you don't use 0 DC epic spell ridiculousness.

    Regarding initiators, with no initiator class levels, you hit IL 17 at class level 34, so any time after that 9th level maneuvers are available, assuming you have the prerequisites of course. If you're going to add maneuvers that's probably the earliest I'd consider it, after you've done everything with casters that you're going to.

    As far as soulmelds go, I've done very little with that.
    Epic spells are allowed. Not going for absolute insanity here with optimization. Soulmelds I've never used and probably the sub system I'm least concerned about. Initiator levels just seem fun as a concept for lulling people into a false sense of security before anyone realizes they're dealing with a level 45 spellcaster instead. They aren't required, though.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hackulator View Post
    I mean, it's a spellcasting class cause it gives spellcasting. I did say it was a silly RAW interpretation, I wouldn't let someone get away with it in a game I was running unless the whole game was purposely silly builds. The guy is building a 45 class level demilich, silliness seems to be the idea.

    I was expecting theurges galore for the build. I'm just trying to find a sort of "just right" balance here between adding more theurges and sub systems and maintaining a high enough Caster level or equivalent with systems already in the build to remain meaningful at level 45.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Friends don't let friends do Starmetal.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Help with a Demilich NPC

    I feel like you'd get closer to what you're envisioning just taking the lich template. What does Walker in the Waste give you that makes it so necessary?

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Help with a Demilich NPC

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkSoul View Post
    I feel like you'd get closer to what you're envisioning just taking the lich template. What does Walker in the Waste give you that makes it so necessary?
    It's twofold. It's linked to the character's backstory I had built before ever deciding to make them a lich or undead and it just fit that perfectly. It was sort of the final tipping point for the fall from grace that ended up being tied heavily to a bunch of "shamans" in the desert. That particular prestige class simply represents that particular journey. I could technically remove it since the LA/ECL/whatever is all "free" for the character whether they have the class or not. The other part is among the group of 45's there's already a normal/traditional Lich.

    If removing the class while still keeping the template makes it easier I don't see the harm. I just enjoyed keeping the fluff if I could.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Friends don't let friends do Starmetal.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Orc in the Playground
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    May 2018

    Default Re: Help with a Demilich NPC

    Another possible RAW problem, it states to make the soul gems the character must be a sorcerer, wizard, or cleric of at least 21st level. Maybe that does not mean 21 levels of one of those classes, but it would seem you need one of those bases in there technically. But up to you.

    Spellcasting progression does not add to classes that grant spell casting progression, they progress classes with spells.

    Overall though, you will be insanely wealthy so you don't need to be able to cast every spell or go super theurge. Something as simple as Cleric 10, Walker in the Waste 10, Dweomerkeeper 20, Heirophant 5. Divine metamagic up lots of supernatural persistent/extended spells which cannot be taken down with Disjunction (or just reduce persistant to an adjustment of +1 and avoid divine metamagic). If you are in Toril, you can take the Servant of the Fallen Feat from Lost Empires of Faerun to worship a dead deity and be out for revenge. There is also the Arcane Disciple variant cleric that gets to add a bard or sorcerer spell to its cleric spell list at every level (dragon #311, page 49). If you really have the need for more spells than that, an archivist lich could have every spell in existence by that level. Prestige classes that goes beyond progressing two casting classes is more interesting and powerful at level 45. You could even take a class that interests you that does not have give progression. Ur-Priest can still be used if you deem it RAW or prefer the flavor. Or Adjust to base caster class of choice.

    If the argument is more casting classes, more spells per day, take advantage of your Phylactery Transference. Have a belt of the Dread Emperor from Book of vile darkness. Siphon off your minion's life force to power your spells (epic leadership at level 45 should get you something with lots of HP). Also have the Dread Emperor's armor and shift damage you take to your cohorts. The armor does not specify a living creature, so animate some high HP undead. Extra guards for your phylactery anyway. Build your phylactery in a rune circle and use an acorn of far travel to always count as being in it. Surround that with the only Epic spell of worth, a Mythal of your own design with all the protections you deem of interest.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Sep 2014

    Default Re: Help with a Demilich NPC

    Late levels you can dip jpm and mot9 with minimal investment to get a ton of maneuvers and/or progress some casting.

    Anima mage arcane or divine is an easy enter with 2 feats or a level of binder. i am sure there is some silliness with uncanny trickster and legacy champion. Likely advancing a theurge. Can you PaO into a beholderkin and take beholder mage? That gets you arcane 9ths pretty quickly if you lack another way to get access, not sure if you can beholder mage 1/ urpriest 1/ mystic theurge x and how theurge would interact with the fast class progression. But psychic reformation or something into that path, then binder 1 anima mage advancing mystic theurge (not sure if this works?) depending on wording gets you dual 9ths and max binding in just over 20 levels. Leaves you a lot of levels for druid/psion/warlock with maneuvers by grabbing a few levels late.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Help with a Demilich NPC

    So tainted scholar sounds like a decent thematic choice for this build and it could be combined with warlock or dragon fire adept to add in invocations.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Help with a Demilich NPC

    Quote Originally Posted by Bphill561 View Post
    Another possible RAW problem, it states to make the soul gems the character must be a sorcerer, wizard, or cleric of at least 21st level. Maybe that does not mean 21 levels of one of those classes, but it would seem you need one of those bases in there technically. But up to you.

    Spellcasting progression does not add to classes that grant spell casting progression, they progress classes with spells.

    Overall though, you will be insanely wealthy so you don't need to be able to cast every spell or go super theurge. Something as simple as Cleric 10, Walker in the Waste 10, Dweomerkeeper 20, Heirophant 5. Divine metamagic up lots of supernatural persistent/extended spells which cannot be taken down with Disjunction (or just reduce persistant to an adjustment of +1 and avoid divine metamagic). If you are in Toril, you can take the Servant of the Fallen Feat from Lost Empires of Faerun to worship a dead deity and be out for revenge. There is also the Arcane Disciple variant cleric that gets to add a bard or sorcerer spell to its cleric spell list at every level (dragon #311, page 49). If you really have the need for more spells than that, an archivist lich could have every spell in existence by that level. Prestige classes that goes beyond progressing two casting classes is more interesting and powerful at level 45. You could even take a class that interests you that does not have give progression. Ur-Priest can still be used if you deem it RAW or prefer the flavor. Or Adjust to base caster class of choice.

    If the argument is more casting classes, more spells per day, take advantage of your Phylactery Transference. Have a belt of the Dread Emperor from Book of vile darkness. Siphon off your minion's life force to power your spells (epic leadership at level 45 should get you something with lots of HP). Also have the Dread Emperor's armor and shift damage you take to your cohorts. The armor does not specify a living creature, so animate some high HP undead. Extra guards for your phylactery anyway. Build your phylactery in a rune circle and use an acorn of far travel to always count as being in it. Surround that with the only Epic spell of worth, a Mythal of your own design with all the protections you deem of interest.

    Ideally the arcane casting would be sourced from Wizard in here. Sorc doesn't work thematically and--as far as I know-- there's no Ur Priest equivalent or any sort of fast progression Arcane casting that would work both thematically and mechanically for the character.

    Of all the things that are basically non-negotiable here is the fact that the character is both a Demilich (whatever route they took to get there) and an Ur Priest. It may not be ideal but it fits the character. It is based in Toril but the servant of the fallen just doesn't fit the character. He hates the gods. All of them. The closest thing he'd ever get to worship is pledging service to an elder evil solely to further his own ends. That said I do like the ideas and appreciate the input on the various Cleric/Archivist ideas.

    The character will have Epic Leadership, of course. Evil character running his own army and all of that. I wasn't planning on having a high level or high powered humanoid, though. Kind of a bummer for the belt. I think I'd need to go another route to secure a "willing" servant with enough HP to matter for that one. The armor is one I hadn't thought of and sounds really fun for the character. Definitely fits. Unfortunately, Mythals are completely off limits at this time. I feel like there's an exploit there for liquid pain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Efrate View Post
    Late levels you can dip jpm and mot9 with minimal investment to get a ton of maneuvers and/or progress some casting.

    Anima mage arcane or divine is an easy enter with 2 feats or a level of binder. i am sure there is some silliness with uncanny trickster and legacy champion. Likely advancing a theurge. Can you PaO into a beholderkin and take beholder mage? That gets you arcane 9ths pretty quickly if you lack another way to get access, not sure if you can beholder mage 1/ urpriest 1/ mystic theurge x and how theurge would interact with the fast class progression. But psychic reformation or something into that path, then binder 1 anima mage advancing mystic theurge (not sure if this works?) depending on wording gets you dual 9ths and max binding in just over 20 levels. Leaves you a lot of levels for druid/psion/warlock with maneuvers by grabbing a few levels late.

    This was the kind of stuff I was looking for. Not worried about psionics at all for this particular character. Also, Anima mage won't progress binding without at least a dip into Binder but that's still an option there. Even if the character could go the beholder route (Didn't it require Beholder, not kin?) he won't. That's on the verge of being too broken here in this game.

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    So tainted scholar sounds like a decent thematic choice for this build and it could be combined with warlock or dragon fire adept to add in invocations.
    I hadn't even considered Tainted Scholar. I was including Taint for the sake of extra feats and such but for some reason had it stuck in my mind that Undead and those with the Evil Subtype couldn't build up anymore taint. The other abilities of the Tainted Scholar work perfectly with the theme of the character as a man searching for various forms of taboo and secret knowle
    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Friends don't let friends do Starmetal.

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