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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Aug 2018

    Default Seeking Advice: Sorcadin who already has PAM and Sentinel feats

    OK, so 3 sessions ago, my Vengeance Paladin killed a young green dragon. I made a big deal of having him brag around town and to strangers he met, etc., that he killed a dragon, he started calling himself Hadrian "Dragonsbane" and Hadrian the Dragonslayer. I really played it up, and the party was playfully annoyed at his inflated ego.

    Yesterday, my Paladin killed a young gold dragon (DM was not playing it as a Good creature) that was hunting the party down with his high level (like 15) Dragonborn Sorcerer mentor. The high level Sorcerer escaped and, while this is only a complication in the "main plot" of the campaign (which is our fight to end slavery in this world), I get the sense that the DM would add in more visits from him and/or more dragon stuff out of a sense of fun.

    With the exp gained from yesterday's session, my Paladin is leveling to level 7 now. I suggested the possibility of being able to multi-class into a Draconic Sorcerer since I just killed 2 dragons in melee combat so close in time, and the DM was all for it.

    I have decided to go all in, as level 6 Vengeance Paladin is an excellent time to break into Sorcerer for the multi-class, and it just makes for such a fun and organic story. Right now, my plan is to just level as Sorcerer as I gain more levels from now on. My original character goal was to explore playing a pure paladin through the higher levels. I've also been enjoying using Find Steed when able and am interested in getting Greater Find Steed later (need level 13 paladin for that). However, in addition to the mechanical benefits of a "Sorcadin" multiclass here, from an RP side, I cannot resist following the organic storyline and growing gold scales and gaining these magic powers.

    My current level 6 Vengeance Paladin is a Variant Human with 16 Str, 10 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 10 Wis, 16 Chr, and has the Polearm Master (PAM) and Sentinel feats already, and uses the Defense fighting style. I have a +1 Glaive, a Cloak of Protection, and normal Plate Mail. His AC is 20. He will be Paladin 6, Sorcerer 1 at our next session.

    My role is the main tank of the group, which I do mostly by wearing plate and being controlling/sticky with PAM and Sentinel (and having a good offense as the best defense). For party make-up we have a Assassin Rogue who mostly likes to melee, an Evoker Wizard and Mystic who like to do fair amounts of support/debuffs from range, and a Life Cleric who's brand new to 5e and has been casting Bless but stayed at range healing a lot so far. We fight a mix of humanoids and monsters in our various combats.

    I am looking for advice on my spell selection and on my tactics during combats for my newly developing Sorcadin. Having PAM and Sentinal, and in the role I play, adds some complications from the guides I have seen online.

    Using the PAM feat for a bonus attack and also Sentinel makes several of the perks of a Sorcerer multiclass a little less useful. For example, normally both melee cantrips would work well on a Sorcadin. But while Booming Blade has positives combined with using a Polearm and metamagic quickened spell, that can also compete against Extra Attack (when not quickened), the PAM bonus attack when it is quickened and the Sentinel reaction movement effect (which looks like RAW it always happens when I hit with the reaction). Same goes for using Green Flame Blade, which combines well with the Elemental Affinity but is also competing with Extra Attack and the PAM bonus attack.

    I am thinking of just skipping the melee cantrips entirely, or just adding Green Flame Blade after a few levels as an extra, when it can be a versatility if for some reason I cannot use a polearm. Because I am not including those melee cantrips, I am looking for advice on the spell selection and tactics I should pursue instead, for defense, buffing, and utility mostly. I mean, of course, I'll still take fireball, though!

    I welcome your opinions. Thanks for reading and commenting.

  2. - Top - End - #2

    Default Re: Seeking Advice: Sorcadin who already has PAM and Sentinel feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Spieldog20 View Post
    OK, so 3 sessions ago, my Vengeance Paladin killed a young green dragon. I made a big deal of having him brag around town and to strangers he met, etc., that he killed a dragon, he started calling himself Hadrian "Dragonsbane" and Hadrian the Dragonslayer. I really played it up, and the party was playfully annoyed at his inflated ego.

    Yesterday, my Paladin killed a young gold dragon (DM was not playing it as a Good creature) that was hunting the party down with his high level (like 15) Dragonborn Sorcerer mentor. The high level Sorcerer escaped and, while this is only a complication in the "main plot" of the campaign (which is our fight to end slavery in this world), I get the sense that the DM would add in more visits from him and/or more dragon stuff out of a sense of fun.

    With the exp gained from yesterday's session, my Paladin is leveling to level 7 now. I suggested the possibility of being able to multi-class into a Draconic Sorcerer since I just killed 2 dragons in melee combat so close in time, and the DM was all for it.

    I have decided to go all in, as level 6 Vengeance Paladin is an excellent time to break into Sorcerer for the multi-class, and it just makes for such a fun and organic story. Right now, my plan is to just level as Sorcerer as I gain more levels from now on. My original character goal was to explore playing a pure paladin through the higher levels. I've also been enjoying using Find Steed when able and am interested in getting Greater Find Steed later (need level 13 paladin for that). However, in addition to the mechanical benefits of a "Sorcadin" multiclass here, from an RP side, I cannot resist following the organic storyline and growing gold scales and gaining these magic powers.

    My current level 6 Vengeance Paladin is a Variant Human with 16 Str, 10 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 10 Wis, 16 Chr, and has the Polearm Master (PAM) and Sentinel feats already, and uses the Defense fighting style. I have a +1 Glaive, a Cloak of Protection, and normal Plate Mail. His AC is 20. He will be Paladin 6, Sorcerer 1 at our next session.

    My role is the main tank of the group, which I do mostly by wearing plate and being controlling/sticky with PAM and Sentinel (and having a good offense as the best defense). For party make-up we have a Assassin Rogue who mostly likes to melee, an Evoker Wizard and Mystic who like to do fair amounts of support/debuffs from range, and a Life Cleric who's brand new to 5e and has been casting Bless but stayed at range healing a lot so far. We fight a mix of humanoids and monsters in our various combats.

    I am looking for advice on my spell selection and on my tactics during combats for my newly developing Sorcadin. Having PAM and Sentinal, and in the role I play, adds some complications from the guides I have seen online.

    Using the PAM feat for a bonus attack and also Sentinel makes several of the perks of a Sorcerer multiclass a little less useful. For example, normally both melee cantrips would work well on a Sorcadin. But while Booming Blade has positives combined with using a Polearm and metamagic quickened spell, that can also compete against Extra Attack (when not quickened), the PAM bonus attack when it is quickened and the Sentinel reaction movement effect (which looks like RAW it always happens when I hit with the reaction). Same goes for using Green Flame Blade, which combines well with the Elemental Affinity but is also competing with Extra Attack and the PAM bonus attack.

    I am thinking of just skipping the melee cantrips entirely, or just adding Green Flame Blade after a few levels as an extra, when it can be a versatility if for some reason I cannot use a polearm. Because I am not including those melee cantrips, I am looking for advice on the spell selection and tactics I should pursue instead, for defense, buffing, and utility mostly. I mean, of course, I'll still take fireball, though!

    I welcome your opinions. Thanks for reading and commenting.
    Hi, I will be playing also Sorcadin now so I gathered a lot of info from other folks, so I can share with you what I got to know:

    1. Melee cantrips have restricted range of 5ft. You won't be able to use both them and you 10ft reach from Glaive. You will have to move closer to hit them with melee cantrips. You would need Spell Sniper for that but you don't have any more space for such feats. You will already barely make with rest required feats in your next ASIs.

    2. However, PAM also works with Quarterstaffs and Spears, giving you option to use them + Shield and being able to use BB or GFB on OAs or quicken without having to move closer with your movement or feeling like you don't utilize your 10ft range. And it still works with Sentinel.

    3. If you don't plan to use melee cantrips and abuse PAM OAs + BB, you can skip War Caster feat and go straight for Resilent (CON). You need at least one CON/CONC feat (War Caster or RES (CON)) to be able to keep your concentraion on many great spells you will have from both Paladin and Sorcerer.

    4. That means that you will heavy delay your STR ASI and you won't be able to achieve 20 in CHA. If you take Sorcerer now, your next ASI will be: level 10, level 14 and level 18. So you will need to grab level 10: RES (CON) or War Caster, level 14: +2 STR, level 18: +2 STR.

    If you will be able to find Giant Belt before that you can skip STR and bump CHA (Aura) on 14 and 18.

    5. As for spell selection, this is what I like on Paladin (also as tank) and what I got recommended for Sorcerer:

    Paladin: Bless, Shield of Faith, Compound Duel, Divine Favour, Find Steed, zone of Truth, Aid, Magical Weapon. Plus your Oath spells.
    Sorcerer: Shield, Absorb Elements, Web, Mirror Image, Fireball, Haste, Hypnotic Pattern, Shadow Blade

    6. You don't really need Quicken Cantrips, but truth is they will deal more damage than your PAM bonus attack. And since you already took PAM and Sentinel, and need Condition/Concentration feat and you need to bump STR or CHA- you won't be able to grab GWM.

    7. If possible I would probably try to talk with your DM and ask him if you could replace PAM with GWM (and use Greatsword instead). This would allow you to utilize melee cantrips, still use Sentinel on enemies running away from you and give you boost. Or replace Sentinel with GWM (or +2 STR if you would like to use Spear or Q-staff with Shield instead of 2h polearm), but it seems you like to tank with that feat.

    Thing is: Sorcadin is already super feat-heavy so it's important to know what you want to take next as your next two ASI are 10 and 14 level.

    So I would probably switch to 1h Polearm + Shield if you want to stay PAM + Sentinel and take War Caster on level 10 and then focus on STR or CHA if you find STR boosting item.

    As for tactics:

    Generally with PAM and Sentinel and being Sorcadin I would try first to lock group of enemies with quicken Web or later Hypnotic Pattern and focus on those who resisted to try to lock them with Sentinel, This way you can lock down a lot of enemies away from party and you and your team can start to clean them up one by one. If you can lock a lot of enemies together you can in next turn Quicken Fireball on them (works great on restrained target as they have disadvantage then on DEX save). This would be my tactic.

    If you need to lock away one BBEG- use Compound Duel + Sentinel to be able to control him on you. Later use Quicken Hold Person to burst him fast if you don't need some other conc effect.

    As tank you will want to save your 1st level slots for: Shield and/or Absorb Elements. Both are reactions boosting your defense heavly and will play big role in your tanking for your party.

    Sadly Sentinel and Booming Blade kind of counters each other when using Opportunity Attack (that is why I prefer to not take Sentinel as BB is a soft version of it, making enemy decide whenever they want to move and take damage or stay in place where you hit them) but extra damage to attack is always extra damage to attack especially when BB is free on OAs.

    That would be my base tactics. Since you won't grab GWM (unless you find Giant belt and Ignore Charisma then by all means, grab GWM on level 14 if you will have at least 21 STR from belt) probably I would switch for now to Spear + Shield or Quarterstaff/Magic Staff + Shield and focus on War Caster and STR ASIs.

    If you want to stay on 2h no matter what I would skip both War Caster and melee cantrips and go straight for Resilence (CON) as there is no point into War Caster imo on 10 level without melee cantrips.
    Last edited by Alucard89; 2019-02-17 at 04:20 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    stoutstien's Avatar

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    Default Re: Seeking Advice: Sorcadin who already has PAM and Sentinel feats

    Raw, booming blade and greenflame don't work with polearms reaction attack because the spells have a five foot range. You need the feat spell sniper for that combo.
    Sniped.
    But also I believe you are better off staying paladin until at least lv 10 for aura and honestly 14 for cleanse touch. One of the best features on the game
    Last edited by stoutstien; 2019-02-17 at 04:24 PM. Reason: Sniped

  4. - Top - End - #4

    Default Re: Seeking Advice: Sorcadin who already has PAM and Sentinel feats

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Raw, booming blade and greenflame don't work with polearms reaction attack because the spells have a five foot range. You need the feat spell sniper for that combo.
    Unless you use Spear or Quarterstaff + Shield. Then PAM reaction works RAW with Booming Blade as both weapons have 5ft range and are also included in Polearm Master feat.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    stoutstien's Avatar

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    Default Re: Seeking Advice: Sorcadin who already has PAM and Sentinel feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Alucard89 View Post
    Unless you use Spear or Quarterstaff + Shield. Then PAM reaction works RAW with Booming Blade as both weapons have 5ft range and are also included in Polearm Master feat.
    I was basing that on the fact he has a +1 glavie that he probably wants to use.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RogueJK's Avatar

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    Default Re: Seeking Advice: Sorcadin who already has PAM and Sentinel feats

    As said, don't bother with the melee cantrips. Your existing 3x attacks at 10' reach outweigh the melee cantrips' 1x attack at 5' reach.

    For cantrips, you'll want at least one ranged damage option, such as Fire Bolt. I'd use the other three for utility cantrips like Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, and Mending.

    For your leveled spells, you'll want to focus on defensive, buffing, and utility spells. Just don't load up on too many Concentration spells, since Paladins already have useful things to be spending their Concentration on. For your 1st level spells, pick up Shield and Absorb Elements at Sorcerer 1, then look at Feather Fall next level. Later look at 2nd Level spells like Mirror Image and Misty Step, and spells like Haste, Thunderstep, and Fly once you get 3rd Level spells.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Aug 2018

    Default Re: Seeking Advice: Sorcadin who already has PAM and Sentinel feats

    Hello,

    I wanted to thank you guys for the feedback and provide follow up.

    1. I am going into Draconic Sorcerer for the rest of my levels. For the organic story and for the benefits it does add, I couldn't resist it. Not having to wedge in an excuse to do a multiclass is nice. Staying Paladin seemed for the sake of gains at levels 10, 11, and 14, which are a long way off when you play by xp points. But Sorc provides immediate benefits now and as I gain those levels also.

    2. I do want to keep using my +1 Glaive as my main weapon. Also, my DM is not one for retcons during the game, at this stage, so I cannot change up my feats, either.

    3. I have joking about finding a Belt of Giant Strength long before this ever happened, so I am hoping I have primed the DM to eventually have one appear. We will see. (Also a "Sun-Glaive" to have a Sunblade-esque polearm weapon, hehe.)

    4. Next ASI, I have a long while (4 full levels and we play with earning xp, not milestones) to level 10 for the next ASI, so we will see how concentration treats me until then. I do have the +CHA aura, so that has been boosting my concentration a bit with the current +3. Plus, I have focused mainly on Divine Favor because it really is a nice damage boost with PAM (esp. if I cast it while mounted on my Find Steed), so it is not fight-ending if it drops. If it seems solid I am tempted to boost CHA with my ASI. And if I get a Giant Belt in the next 4 levels, this is nearly guaranteed. If I do not get a Belt, I will probably shoot for an eventual +2 to CHA and a +2 to STR as the 2 ASI's I have left, for 18 in each. The aura boost just makes sense to give a priority to CHR also, with how useful it has been. DM has already thrown many high AC enemies at us and even my 16 Str has been adequate with everything else I have.

    5. I love the spell suggestions. Right now, I am going with Shield and Absorb Elements. I like the ideas of Web and Hypnotic Pattern later. Of course to Mirror Image, also. Haste, Fly, and Fireball seem like must haves when I get level 3, also.

    6 Cantrips. I'm just going to not do the melee cantrips. I like the regular PAM+Sentinel action that has been taking place with the 10' reach. Maybe I'll add in one of them later if I feel so tempted, but I am feeling they are not necessary. I basically went with RogueJK's suggestions (Fire Bolt, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, and Mending), but may take Light instead of Mage Hand for campaign reasons.

    7. Metamagic. I will only have 2 of these for almost forever (get new at level 10 sorc), so the 2 I choose are important. I know I want Quicken. Quickening a spell and then still attacking twice with my magic Glaive is bad ass. I am thinking, but not totally sure, that Twinned may be best for the second metamagic. I could...twin Divine Favor onto the Rogue Assassin or Shield of Faith. I could twin Hold Person to try to Hold 2 guys instead. Twin will be more vital when I get Fly or Haste, I suppose. Heighten I am not as sure about. I could Heighten a Hold Person, which might tempt me to use it more than I have (pretty much never because of my DC). But it seems useless to use that on a Fireball or Web or Hypnotic Pattern, since it is just one target to give the disadvantage to.
    With the level 3 addition of Haste and Fly, I think the edge goes to Twinned.

    Thanks you guys! I am not optimal-optimal, because I'd have done something different than PAM+Sentinel if I knew this was my path when I started, but its still looks like it will be a fun, and very solid build.

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