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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Also, regarding the need to build a Knight of the Word PrC, I'd be happy to do so if people didn't mind that instead of standard truenaming it used Kellus's Way Words Work system (which is much better than the standard truenamer which is worth at least 2.5 headaches).
    I’d be partial to using Kyudo’s (I think) Book of Words, which has the advantage of back porting to ToM with little work, maybe with a Kellus conversion? I just feel that requiring a new system (Kellus only keeps fluff.) is a bit much.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Quote Originally Posted by JMS View Post
    I’d be partial to using Kyudo’s (I think) Book of Words, which has the advantage of back porting to ToM with little work, maybe with a Kellus conversion? I just feel that requiring a new system (Kellus only keeps fluff.) is a bit much.
    Yeah, that's a reasonable point. I'll see if I can review his version enough to feel comfortable homebrewing with it. (Also for anyone else reading this, the user name is Kyeudo and the fix can be found here).

    Edit: Actually the link in that thread to the PDF appears to be broken. I have a saved copy but I don't know any easy link to the rules. If someone else can find a copy online we can point to, that would be great. Otherwise, I'm hesitant to homebrew for something using a homebrew set of rules which aren't actually available to most people.
    Last edited by JoshuaZ; 2019-02-19 at 09:00 PM.
    My homebrew:

    Spoiler
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    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



    Worthwhile links:

    Age of Warriors

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    it's on scribd at least

    You're the one volunteering, it's up to you.

    This is pretty much what sidebars are for though, and converting a PRC is like 3 abilities.

    I personally prefer the Kellus system. But again it's easy to sidebar-convert.
    Last edited by Elves; 2019-02-19 at 09:55 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Twin Dragon Chord Technique!

    Or what if it were reliant on pre-combat buffing? People would gain buffs by reading their poetry or hearing them perform (maybe the buff could be access to martial maneuvers themselves?). This makes a lot of sense to me, flavorwise but also mechanically in terms of the support character giving their teammates access to extra abilities, not just flat bonuses.

    Edit: if it were epic poetry, the buff could be because people take on aspects of the heroic warriors the tale describes. There could even be two categories of buff, narrative and lyrical (and instrumental?).

    What I’d like for the AOW bard is a class who is actually a bard, rather than a melee fighter. For example, Demented One’s Warrior-Poet is about seeing “the poetry of battle”, which IMO is not a distinct enough premise especially when swordsages are already noted to be artsy.

    Plus I’d like to show the idea that the Sublime Way can be used for other things than combat — while still not confusing it with magic — and this seems good for that, especially since poetry is already linked to the “sublime”.

    I like the name Poet for this class because it's a more specific version of Bard, same as Paladin>Crusader. And you can differentiate them with a fun kind of enmity -- "pfah, bards are common performers, not true poets", etc.
    I mean, that is a great idea, and I'd love to see it, but I see two massive problems with it.

    a) How do you fit pre-combat buffs into the paradigm of stances and strikes? This seems the wrong mechanical framework for that kind of class.
    b) If the poet's main power is pre-combat buffing, what do they do during combat? As much as I like out of combat utility and roleplaying scenes, one can't deny that combat often takes out significant amounts of time in any given session. And if you have an hour or even just half an hour of combat, the player needs something to do in that time, other than watching their companions be awesome with their buffs.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2019-02-20 at 08:43 AM.
    I solemnly swear,
    To devote my life and abilities,
    In defence of the United Nations of Earth,
    To defend the Constitution of Man,
    And to further the universal rights of all sentient life.
    From the depths of the pacific, to the edge of the galaxy.
    For as long as I shall live.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    b) If the poet's main power is pre-combat buffing, what do they do during combat?
    The buffing would be a class feature, and then they'd get leader-y maneuvers on top of it (edited versions of Divine Muse and Lost Lyrics). There should also be a CHA discipline with animeish music moves like in the youtube link, both for theme and so as to not mandate MAD.

    Alternately, the buffing could be from maneuvers, and then they get a relatively high number of maneuvers but have to split them between in-combat and out-of-combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    a) How do you fit pre-combat buffs into the paradigm of stances and strikes? This seems the wrong mechanical framework for that kind of class.
    To be super boring, it could just let people act like they've got Martial Study for a maneuver. Stance granting could be higher level. (The flexibility+saved slot hopefully making up for the fact that you can buy this with a magic item.) But that seems too basic. I’ll try and think of something.

    If nothing else works, could always default to a long-lasting Inspire Courage (longer to set up, but would at least not take up the bard’s first combat turn).

    ————

    I’ll do a draft for this class ASAP, but first am going to finish up this fluff writing. As a novice homebrewer the first draft for the class is assured to have problems, but it'll be something to start with.
    Last edited by Elves; 2019-02-20 at 10:45 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    So, initial draft of Knight of the Word is up in this thread. I suspect it is going to need a lot of balancing and probably other things before it is good to go. So feel free to head over there and critique it to shreds.
    My homebrew:

    Spoiler
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    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



    Worthwhile links:

    Age of Warriors

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    I've consider something like this periodically. Some things from my notes, without much attention paid to the thread:

    1. Most of the existing martial classes should be given ACFs that give them maneuvers and are shameless powerups. Like, "Trap Sense for Warblade maneuver progression" shameless. I'd give each class one core discipline plus one discipline of their choice (e.g. Rogue gets Shadow Hand + Any Other).
    2. The existing classes should get more maneuvers. Probably what they have now plus one per character level. They should also get a free pick discipline. Maybe not the Swordsage, or maybe swap Stone Dragon for a free pick.
    3. Swordsage needs a new refresh mechanic. I like "refresh maneuvers when you switch stance", but there are a variety of possibilities. Also probably full BAB.
    4. On a similar note to 1, there should be rules for retrofitting non-ToB martial PrCs with maneuver progression.
    5. I think expanding existing disciplines is generally going to be more productive than writing new ones. It is currently quite difficult to put together a character who is a master of a particular discipline, despite the fluff presenting that as the default.
    6. Tome of Battle maneuvers work best for characters fighting with a two-handed weapon, and that's conceptually limiting. I don't really think writing disciplines for other fighting styles is a good fix for this.
    7. The disciplines should come with utility powers, either as maneuvers or as a separate track. Being a master of the Shadow Hand should allow you to command, travel through, and shape shadows.

    I'm sure I'll think of other stuff at some point.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    I've consider something like this periodically. Some things from my notes, without much attention paid to the thread:

    1. Most of the existing martial classes should be given ACFs that give them maneuvers and are shameless powerups. Like, "Trap Sense for Warblade maneuver progression" shameless. I'd give each class one core discipline plus one discipline of their choice (e.g. Rogue gets Shadow Hand + Any Other).
    2. The existing classes should get more maneuvers. Probably what they have now plus one per character level. They should also get a free pick discipline. Maybe not the Swordsage, or maybe swap Stone Dragon for a free pick.
    3. Swordsage needs a new refresh mechanic. I like "refresh maneuvers when you switch stance", but there are a variety of possibilities. Also probably full BAB.
    4. On a similar note to 1, there should be rules for retrofitting non-ToB martial PrCs with maneuver progression.
    5. I think expanding existing disciplines is generally going to be more productive than writing new ones. It is currently quite difficult to put together a character who is a master of a particular discipline, despite the fluff presenting that as the default.
    6. Tome of Battle maneuvers work best for characters fighting with a two-handed weapon, and that's conceptually limiting. I don't really think writing disciplines for other fighting styles is a good fix for this.
    7. The disciplines should come with utility powers, either as maneuvers or as a separate track. Being a master of the Shadow Hand should allow you to command, travel through, and shape shadows.

    I'm sure I'll think of other stuff at some point.
    I think there's a danger of power bloat with some of these things but I'm not sure how much it is an issue; suggestion 2 by itself seems fine but I'd be worried about 3 leading to serious power creep. Re 7- I like the idea of more utility powers, but I'd be concerned if having too many of them makes the classes feel more overtly magical and less combat oriented (although with Shadow Hand that's less of an issue than others.) Also, making some of these changes (2 and 3 in particular) would lead to potential compatibility issues with ToB which would be suboptimal. I strongly agree with 5 and think adding a few more maneuvers to existing disciplines, or collapsing/fusing some currently separate disciplines may be a good idea.
    My homebrew:

    Spoiler
    Show


    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



    Worthwhile links:

    Age of Warriors

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    but I'd be worried about 3 leading to serious power creep.
    The Swordsage refreshing maneuvers slightly more often is just not a big deal. You could get all your maneuvers at will and that would not be problematic from a power perspective, it would just be kind of boring.

    Re 7- I like the idea of more utility powers, but I'd be concerned if having too many of them makes the classes feel more overtly magical and less combat oriented (although with Shadow Hand that's less of an issue than others.)
    The classes should be less (purely) combat oriented. There's more to the game than combat, and insofar as Tome of Battle is intended as a fix to martials, it needs to fix not just their ability to contribute to a fight but their value outside it. As far as "too magical" goes, I think you have already lost the "too magical" crowd by putting Tome of Battle on the table at all. The people you will lose by giving high level Warblades the ability to use imprisonment because they are good at Stone Dragon that you did not already lose to having Warblades is pretty small. And I think you gain some people (myself included) by going full anime.

    Also, making some of these changes (2 and 3 in particular) would lead to potential compatibility issues with ToB which would be suboptimal.
    I mean, there are already things you need to fix from Tome of Battle like stance progressions. The changes for 2 and 3 fit on a notecard.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    PairO'Dice Lost's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    To be super boring, it could just let people act like they've got Martial Study for a maneuver. Stance granting could be higher level. (The flexibility+saved slot hopefully making up for the fact that you can buy this with a magic item.) But that seems too basic. I’ll try and think of something.
    Along the lines of granting stances, what if, instead of doing pre-battle buffs, the poet handed out two-part buffs, one generic buff that applies to everyone and one "You can forego the benefit of a stance to..." benefit like the special stances in the ToB PrCs, and if you use the forego-a-stance benefit you can also hang on to the base buff as long as you're in that pseudo-stance?

    Augmenting others' stances makes it synergize more with other martial adepts and makes it fairly distinct from a bard; it could also hand out stances to non-initiators at some point, if you want the second buff to be more widely available. Since those abilities last until you change stances, you could "pre-buff" someone with that benefit (but only as long as they stay in that stance, so there's a tradeoff) but you're not shoehorning some method of pre-buffing into the initiating framework. And where a bard wants to pick one bardic music (or multiple, if he has a way to sustain them) and maintain it throughout the battle, the poet would be more about, well, "the poetry of battle" as he switches between buffs every round as the situation changes and martial adepts can "hold onto" buffs as desired, giving a more flexible and free-flowing feel to its abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    7. The disciplines should come with utility powers, either as maneuvers or as a separate track. Being a master of the Shadow Hand should allow you to command, travel through, and shape shadows.
    I saw some homebrew on...I want to say MinMaxBoards? that added a new maneuver type, called a "rush" or something like that, which is initiated with a move action and gives some sort of movement- or utility-related benefit. I could definitely see adding in those, plus maybe another maneuver type to cover pure utility stuff (Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink already lacks a maneuver type, so those could be moved to that type too), to broaden disciplines beyond combat-relevant maneuvers.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    It just so happens that I'm currently playing Tyranny, which has what is basically a bard join your party. Her music works by building over time: you start with a slight buff, but the longer you sing, the stronger it gets and at regular intervals you get a resource (I think they were called beats? Breaths?) that you can spend for a bigger effect, but that also starts the buff over from 0. It's quite a nice system.

    I.e. Inspire courage: +1 bonus for everyone in the party, an additional +1 every round, to a maximum of +3 (more later levels), dismiss to grant someone [benefit dependent on strike used].
    I solemnly swear,
    To devote my life and abilities,
    In defence of the United Nations of Earth,
    To defend the Constitution of Man,
    And to further the universal rights of all sentient life.
    From the depths of the pacific, to the edge of the galaxy.
    For as long as I shall live.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    PRC+discipline fluff done, drafting poet and [ranger].

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    1. Most of the existing martial classes should be given ACFs
    Probably. And agreed, simple ACFs that give 1-2 disciplines are more practical to include than whole class makeovers ("martial fighter", etc).

    2. The existing classes should get more maneuvers. Probably what they have now plus one per character level. They should also get a free pick discipline.
    More maneuvers, maybe. Free pick not needed IMO. In base-ToB it dilutes identity, and in AOW there are already rules for acquiring new disciplines at minimal cost (or substituting them if starting at l1).

    3. Swordsage needs a new refresh mechanic.
    Though if adding more maneuvers, seems like that would already be enough to make once per encounter work for them.

    5. I think expanding existing disciplines is generally going to be more productive than writing new ones.
    Good point.

    6. Tome of Battle maneuvers work best for characters fighting with a two-handed weapon, and that's conceptually limiting.
    How do you think this could best be fixed?

    7. The disciplines should come with utility powers, either as maneuvers or as a separate track.
    Yeah very much agreed, and this is the best way to start on 5. Rushes and utility maneuvers it is. As JoshuaZ said, still want to stay distinct from magic.


    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Along the lines of granting stances, what if, instead of doing pre-battle buffs, the poet handed out two-part buffs, one generic buff that applies to everyone and one "You can forego the benefit of a stance to..." benefit like the special stances in the ToB PrCs, and if you use the forego-a-stance benefit you can also hang on to the base buff as long as you're in that pseudo-stance?

    ...it could also hand out stances to non-initiators at some point, if you want the second buff to be more widely available.
    Nice. Initiators get a head start and then by the time everyone else gets stance buffs, initiators get higher level ones.
    Last edited by Elves; 2019-02-22 at 02:31 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    I saw some homebrew on...I want to say MinMaxBoards? that added a new maneuver type, called a "rush" or something like that, which is initiated with a move action and gives some sort of movement- or utility-related benefit. I could definitely see adding in those, plus maybe another maneuver type to cover pure utility stuff (Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink already lacks a maneuver type, so those could be moved to that type too), to broaden disciplines beyond combat-relevant maneuvers.
    I think you're very likely to need to expand beyond maneuvers, because even if you allow maneuvers to hold utility effects, they're still basically at-will abilities, which means you're much more limited in what they can do. A Stone Dragon master being able to replicate a Lyre of Building's effect is cool, but if that's a maneuver of any sort, it represents a staggeringly enormous output. That's not to say that Rushes or the like are a bad idea or anything, just that you will need something beyond the standard maneuver system to provide enough utility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Probably. And agreed, simple ACFs that give 1-2 disciplines are more practical to include than whole class makeovers ("martial fighter", etc).
    One of the nice things about giving classes access to maneuvers is that it doesn't require you to do much to the class. Maneuvers are a pointer to an external system, so adding them takes a pretty tiny amount of effort for the reward it grants. About the only class I think needs is a re-write is the Marshal.

    Though if adding more maneuvers, seems like that would already be enough to make once per encounter work for them.
    Perhaps, but it's a fairly boring paradigm. And I think having the ability to refresh in combat versus not having that would be a good distinction to make between ToB classes and other martial classes with ACFs that grant maneuvers.

    How do you think this could best be fixed?
    It's hard to say. One thing you can do is remove most or all of the "melee only" restrictions, which makes ranged characters a good deal more viable. Then the big thing is TWF types, who suffer because their basic melee attack does less damage than someone wielding a greatsword in both hands. You could maybe let them attack with each weapon when using a strike, but that potentially tips things too far in the other direction. You could also crank up the number of Counters and Boosts, which would make someone who made non-maneuver full attacks better able to leverage maneuvers. Though obviously those abilities can still be used by more traditional two-handed fighting types.

    I think one thing you should do is figure out in advance what fighting styles you think need to be supported, then go in once you have a list of maneuvers to check if those characters actually work. Can you build an archer? A mounted knight? Are those characters reasonably viable, instead of just worse versions of a sword-and-board or two handed Warblade? It's hard to say some of these things in advance, but if you're aware of the problem you can check that you've solved it before declaring your mission complete.

    Yeah very much agreed, and this is the best way to start on 5. Rushes and utility maneuvers it is. As JoshuaZ said, still want to stay distinct from magic.
    I think any effort to add utility is going to be accused to being like magic, because there simply isn't a lot of non-magic utility out there. Ultimately, it may be better to bite the bullet and try to keep things distinct by moving over-leveled magical effects over to martial initiators.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    You could make the Lyre of Building a feat, or a stance, that needs to be active as long as you are building. Would totally work.
    I solemnly swear,
    To devote my life and abilities,
    In defence of the United Nations of Earth,
    To defend the Constitution of Man,
    And to further the universal rights of all sentient life.
    From the depths of the pacific, to the edge of the galaxy.
    For as long as I shall live.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Not 100% sure what you're suggesting. The basic issue is that a Lyre of Building is an effect that is active once a week for a couple of hours. That's a radically different usage constraint than anything in Tome of Battle. Making a stance that worked the way it does would be weird enough that I'm not sure you're gaining anything by trying to fit it into the existing paradigm, and making it a feat is a problem because characters get a super tiny number of feats, and while the Lyre of Building effect is cool, people are not going to take it over Power Attack if you ask them to make that choice. So I think you need some additional place to fit these abilities.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Lyre of Building may be a bad example to think about in terms of utility powers because it such highly variable in power. In straight kill-them-and-take-their-stuff campaigns it is almost useless. In campaigns which involve actual kingdoms and things it is so powerful it might make more sense as a legendary artifact.
    My homebrew:

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    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



    Worthwhile links:

    Age of Warriors

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    That could just be a utility maneuver with a long cooldown. Or it could be something akin to 4e's rituals, perhaps called Meditations, Revelations or Enlightenments. Epic meditations under bodhi trees, Dragonball-esque 'train for a thousand years in a mystical demiplane', Stone Dragons shaping the earth into a castle like above, etc.
    Last edited by Elves; 2019-02-23 at 05:17 PM.

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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    I meant it more like "a similar effect".

    Give every discipline a few passive effects, maybe. "A master of Stone dragon is also a master craftsman. In any craft where there is stone involved, anyone knowing at least one Stone Dragon Stance they can substitute their initiator level for their craft check. Anyone knowing at least a fifth level Stone Dragon Stances can do the work of ten craftsmen. Anyone knowing at least an eight level stone dragon stance can do the work of 100 craftsmen."

    Something like that? Though I wouldn't know what to do with half the disciplines.
    I solemnly swear,
    To devote my life and abilities,
    In defence of the United Nations of Earth,
    To defend the Constitution of Man,
    And to further the universal rights of all sentient life.
    From the depths of the pacific, to the edge of the galaxy.
    For as long as I shall live.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I meant it more like "a similar effect".

    Give every discipline a few passive effects, maybe. "A master of Stone dragon is also a master craftsman. In any craft where there is stone involved, anyone knowing at least one Stone Dragon Stance they can substitute their initiator level for their craft check. Anyone knowing at least a fifth level Stone Dragon Stances can do the work of ten craftsmen. Anyone knowing at least an eight level stone dragon stance can do the work of 100 craftsmen."

    Something like that? Though I wouldn't know what to do with half the disciplines.
    Hmm, this is a very interesting idea, that might be very fun and would also not feel too magical. I like this idea a lot.
    My homebrew:

    Spoiler
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    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



    Worthwhile links:

    Age of Warriors

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Did a draft for the low level binder vestige - Kaziir-Thet, Stealer of Clarity. Help with balance would be great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Hmm, this is a very interesting idea, that might be very fun and would also not feel too magical. I like this idea a lot.
    Help me come up with effects for the other disciplines? Stone Dragon happens to be actually very easy, here, the others aren't as material-bound. My main problem is not making them too... adventure relevant? Like, Shadow hand would tempt me to give them low-light or darkvision, and desert wind something with fire, and both of those sound like they might become too useful while on adventure.
    I solemnly swear,
    To devote my life and abilities,
    In defence of the United Nations of Earth,
    To defend the Constitution of Man,
    And to further the universal rights of all sentient life.
    From the depths of the pacific, to the edge of the galaxy.
    For as long as I shall live.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    I was thinking about the Fluff.

    If the Age of Warriors comes after the Temple of Nine Swords, then there has to be a reason for such a flourishing of hundreds of styles. Perhaps we could move a lot forwards in the timeline, making the ToNS be centuries in the past? Some of the styles we are including are obviously very old, especially the planar styles. But others could just be developments of new schools that came up after the fall of the temple? If the temple was the world's main place of fighting education, perhaps it just became too rigid and codified over time, and its fall meant that there was no central place were "correct" style was thought and experimentation discouraged, so there are now hundreds of competing masters and their students, all teaching their own styles?

    It would be a very Wuxia setting, then.


    And now I'm tempted to make a class based on experimentation and combining styles. Hmm...

    Okay, how's this for a base class idea. You get a lot more maneuvers, but your initiator level is considerably lower, so you get lower level maneuvers. Something like a bard progression. But you get access to more disciplines and you get a bonus for mixing disciplines. (I.e. you get an attack bonus if using a boost from one discipline on a strike of another discipline.) Plus maybe a kind of inspiration mechanic, for unusual maneuvers invented on the fly.

    Because you're not going to let some crusty old master tell you how to fight.
    I solemnly swear,
    To devote my life and abilities,
    In defence of the United Nations of Earth,
    To defend the Constitution of Man,
    And to further the universal rights of all sentient life.
    From the depths of the pacific, to the edge of the galaxy.
    For as long as I shall live.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Help me come up with effects for the other disciplines? Stone Dragon happens to be actually very easy, here, the others aren't as material-bound. My main problem is not making them too... adventure relevant? Like, Shadow hand would tempt me to give them low-light or darkvision, and desert wind something with fire, and both of those sound like they might become too useful while on adventure.

    Desert Wind - "Sunrunning" - can keep running/exercising without tiring as long as the sun is shining on them? Hot body temperature makes them resist cold weather effects? Focus the sun's light to cause fires like if you had a really big magnifying glass? Create mirages?
    Devoted Spirit - Obviously, perform miracles.
    Diamond Mind - Extremely well-organized? I don't know. Meditation equivalent to divination spells?
    Iron Heart - Metalworking/metallurgy
    Setting Sun - I don't know. Maybe something related to the Theseus myth since he fought in a similar style. Or some kind of mystical dancing?
    Shadow Hand - Something about connection to the plane of shadow/ethereal plane? Conjure gateways, do shadow teleports, or that Shadowdancer thing? Or simply very good at sneaking?
    Stone Dragon - Stoneworking
    Tiger Claw - Hunting? Wild Empathy?
    White Raven - Something equivalent to a free Leadership feat? This would also help solve 'having no allies to help with my maneuvers'


    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I was thinking about the Fluff.

    If the Age of Warriors comes after the Temple of Nine Swords, then there has to be a reason for such a flourishing of hundreds of styles. Perhaps we could move a lot forwards in the timeline, making the ToNS be centuries in the past? Some of the styles we are including are obviously very old, especially the planar styles. But others could just be developments of new schools that came up after the fall of the temple? If the temple was the world's main place of fighting education, perhaps it just became too rigid and codified over time, and its fall meant that there was no central place were "correct" style was thought and experimentation discouraged, so there are now hundreds of competing masters and their students, all teaching their own styles?

    It would be a very Wuxia setting, then.
    Big timeskip is a good possibility. It might interfere with people's ability to integrate it into their campaigns that use base TOB, but >10 years after the fact, that's way less of a concern than just maybe, possibly, giving them a reason to run a new one.

    I made a few stabs at the fluff chapter, with the assumption of minimal timeskip. This was an (overly cheesy) attempt at the start quote for the intro:

    You fought well, my student. Like I thought, their corpses bear the tattoo of the Broken Blade. I had no idea those techniques were still being taught. And this only a month since we learned that a master of Infinite Torment is walking the earth again.

    Perhaps I have been neglectful by teaching you only of Reshar’s nine Ways. Back when I was young, they were enough—and the tradition they represented seemed valuable—but that was an age of mere theory, of relative peace, of sages, sportsmen, hermits and monastics. Whereas it seems it may be your hard fate to live in an age of warriors.

    Come then, and let us speak not of nine swords but of numberless, nor of Reshar but of the Sublime Way in its entirety.


    - Harran Turiyeshor

    (This was with the concept of some kind of world war being the trigger. To some degree, inevitably, it will be simply that Reshar, while an accomplished and supremely talented individual, is not the be-all and end-all of the Sublime.)

    And now I'm tempted to make a class based on experimentation and combining styles. Hmm...

    Okay, how's this for a base class idea. You get a lot more maneuvers, but your initiator level is considerably lower, so you get lower level maneuvers. Something like a bard progression. But you get access to more disciplines and you get a bonus for mixing disciplines. (I.e. you get an attack bonus if using a boost from one discipline on a strike of another discipline.) Plus maybe a kind of inspiration mechanic, for unusual maneuvers invented on the fly.

    Because you're not going to let some crusty old master tell you how to fight.
    I really liked the concept of the Errant Blademaster PrC which is similar. A class that's custom designed to let people try out a bunch of the book's new content seems fitting.
    Last edited by Elves; 2019-02-25 at 09:05 PM.

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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    I sort of took for granted that any setting specific claim would be at least a generation after Reshar if it was going to be after the Fall of the Temple. Maybe even one hundred years? Since multiple disciplines have fluff about being made in response to events surrounding the Fall, that seems most natural. The Time of Reshar being more legendary and long ago also feels more in keeping with the general themes.
    My homebrew:

    Spoiler
    Show


    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



    Worthwhile links:

    Age of Warriors

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    FYI, TOB says Reshar did his thing "three lifetimes ago", and that the Temple fell one lifetime later, so that's already at least 100y in the past.


    Rangers:

    There seem to be two ways to go, either they are primarily a hunter with a quarry or they are primarily connected to the environment. Either way they probably aren't going to be training in a school like the others.

    If former, should be less generic than eg a World of Warcraft hunter, if latter, should be distinct from druid.



    Something Shinto-y and animistic perhaps? With a belief in accessing the Sublime Way via the "essence" or spirits that inhabit objects and places? Via Wiki, in Shinto there are several kinds of places this essence crosses over into the world:

    Shintai, temporary reserves of spiritual energy or homes of spirits (the most famous one being Mount Fuji):

    The most common shintai are man-made objects like mirrors, swords, jewels (for example comma-shaped stones called magatama), gohei (wands used during religious rites), and sculptures, but they can also be natural objects such as stones, mountains, trees and waterfalls.
    (So the ranger's weapons could be shintai, reserves of spiritual energy, and they draw on that energy to perform maneuvers.)

    Then there are shrines, which are made to house a spirit and safekeep sacred objects (the stereotypical mini-shrines often dot roadways). Similarly, kamidana are small household altars. It would be cute to incorporate the idea of shrines somehow, give them some function. I don't think it would be too restrictive since the ranger could make altars and probably mini-shrines on their own.

    The animal companion could be more like a pal's divine steed - a kami that they summon, akin to some creature from a Studio Ghibli movie (yes, my knowledge of Shinto is pretty shallow). Or those more whimsical kami could be substituted with elementals or sprites.

    Either way, that could relate to the shrines or household altars that attract and house kami. And perhaps you get access to different disciplines depending on what kind of kami you have summoned? A luck one giving Coin's Edge and so on.

    But it may be cleaner to dish the animal companion and focus on the ranger's weapon as a vessel that houses kami -- or have the kami inhabit the weapon, but it can also emerge to take semi-physical form. Gain an animal companion that can perform maneuvers but then you can't perform maneuvers yourself.

    "Animist"?
    Last edited by Elves; 2019-02-25 at 09:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Lyre of Building may be a bad example to think about in terms of utility powers because it such highly variable in power. In straight kill-them-and-take-their-stuff campaigns it is almost useless. In campaigns which involve actual kingdoms and things it is so powerful it might make more sense as a legendary artifact.
    Well, so is fabricate. You definitely want some abilities that are more useful during traditional adventures (like flight), but you'll also want some that are useful for kingdom management stuff (like crafting powers). Because existing utility effects do both of those things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    That could just be a utility maneuver with a long cooldown.
    I dislike this because I think it weakens one of the stronger attributes of Tome of Battle: that maneuvers are on a unified, relatively simple, resource management system. Adding complexity where some maneuvers can be used once a day, or once an hour, or whatever necessarily means losing that. Of course, adding a non-maneuver subsystem also provides increased complexity.

    Of course, some of these things definitely work as maneuvers or stances. For example, you could easily have a Stone Dragon stance that granted burrow + tremorsense, and that would be both useful in combat and outside it without needing any particular usage limits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Give every discipline a few passive effects, maybe. "A master of Stone dragon is also a master craftsman. In any craft where there is stone involved, anyone knowing at least one Stone Dragon Stance they can substitute their initiator level for their craft check. Anyone knowing at least a fifth level Stone Dragon Stances can do the work of ten craftsmen. Anyone knowing at least an eight level stone dragon stance can do the work of 100 craftsmen."

    Something like that?
    Tying ability progression to stance level works nicely. New abilities at 1/5/9/15 is a pretty good progression for this. It does make some things awkward though, because you get a very small number of stances (generally one per level of stance). I'm not convinced that's enough depth of utility options. As written, it also means you can only write one suite of utility powers per discipline. Those problems aren't trivial to solve though. I think there are three things you want to do, and they're all at least a little in conflict. First, you want to support single-discipline characters as much as possible, because that's what the fluff suggests as most common, and because its an obvious character archetype (this is one of the reasons I like "expand disciplines" over "new disciplines"). Second, you want people to get a variety of utility abilities. Third, you'd like these things to be symmetric, at least at the level of ability progression (so you don't get less stuff as a White Raven specialist).

    Maybe something like "to take an X for a discipline (where X is whatever you call the non-combat stuff), you must know a stance for that discipline, all you Xs scale to your highest level stance". It does mean you don't have to take high level stances, but it also solves some weirdness with your progression where PCs stop getting benefits from their low levels stances if they get high level ones of the same discipline. Maybe hand out an X at 1/7/13 (which means you're writing three per discipline for 12 powers per discipline total), or even make it an optional rule with that as a suggested progression, but notes about alternatives like "only at 1st level" (basically equivalent to your idea) or "every odd/even level" for higher powered campaigns or whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Desert Wind - "Sunrunning" - can keep running/exercising without tiring as long as the sun is shining on them? Hot body temperature makes them resist cold weather effects? Focus the sun's light to cause fires like if you had a really big magnifying glass? Create mirages?
    One idea I had for Desert Wind was to give it some of the history-ish divinations to represent lost secrets of the desert. legend lore, hindsight, that kind of thing. I also thought it might be cool to give people the ability to generate Shapesand, as a desert-themed utility power. Fire creation is a good idea, and you can obviously scale that up or down a lot.

    Devoted Spirit - Obviously, perform miracles.
    Devoted Spirit seems like a great place to put effects like restoration or other status removal that have historically required a Cleric. Not only is it on theme, it also opens Crusaders up for a niche that very few other classes can fill. You could also include effects like planar ally or augury.

    Diamond Mind - Extremely well-organized? I don't know. Meditation equivalent to divination spells?
    I thought you could go with the sense magic. Stuff like detect magic or arcane sight. Which naturally lends itself to other magic manipulation like dispel magic. This one is tough though, particularly if you're trying to write more than a couple abilities.

    Iron Heart - Metalworking/metallurgy
    I think Iron Heart could get some crafting-based abilities, maybe even fabricate (re-fluffed as superhuman working speed) at high levels. The Artificer infusions that add weapon properties are an interesting choice here, as is some kind of "object sense". You could also fit in a suite of destructive abilities here, like shatter or some kind of weakness sense. I think you could write some cool fluff about pure Iron Heart masters who only use weapons they forge.

    Setting Sun - I don't know. Maybe something related to the Theseus myth since he fought in a similar style. Or some kind of mystical dancing?
    Setting Sun could grant light powers. I'm not sure how deep the utility well is here, particularly because Desert Wind and Devoted Spirit are stealing some of the obvious options. You could look for some homebrew disciplines to combine in here (one idea I had was to make this the archery discipline, with arrows as rays of sunlight), and draw from that for utility.

    Shadow Hand - Something about connection to the plane of shadow/ethereal plane? Conjure gateways, do shadow teleports, or that Shadowdancer thing? Or simply very good at sneaking?
    Honestly there's so much here that I'm pretty sure that no matter how much Shadow Hand utility you wrote up, there would be more for you to write. Your shadow reaches out and grabs things like a mage hand, you can teleport between shadows, you can command shadow puppets that work like unseen servants, you can send your shadow out to spy like an arcane eye, you can create shadow clones of people, you can command Shadows, the list goes on. Especially if you branch out into some of the less common Shadow Hand stuff like cold damage.

    Stone Dragon - Stoneworking
    Stone Dragon is another one with a lot of options. The idea of a bonus to crafting checks works well, and at high levels there's plenty of stone manipulation. I also like the notion of an imprison-esque effect that lets you trap people in the roots of mountains, as much for the world-building implications as anything. There's also potential here for some abilities about dealing with the spirits of stone.

    Tiger Claw - Hunting? Wild Empathy?
    Animal attributes are an obvious choice here. Senses, movement speeds, skill bonuses. All of those work pretty well, though many could be stances. You could also give them things like awaken or an animal companion. You could also go with abilities to play into rage or anti-civilization themes that work well for the discipline.

    White Raven - Something equivalent to a free Leadership feat? This would also help solve 'having no allies to help with my maneuvers'
    At low levels, you could give them the ability to Aid Another for a +4 bonus instead of a +2. heroes' feast works as an all-day buff, some kind of "everyone who isn't Hostile is one step more friendly" ability, Leadership is a good one and you can have modifications like "no cohort" or "extra followers" or "bonus to Leadership score" to fine-tune the power level. One idea I liked (though I had it as part of a Marshal with Maneuvers class re-write) was a squad of Warriors, which helps with the "what do you do if you're the only melee guy" problem.

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    My problem with fire creation for Desert Wind is basically that they can already do that. Or at least as a DM, I would totally allow, say, a strike that deals fire damage to light a campfire. (Setting Sun, despite the name, does not feel to me as if it should have light powers.)

    Perhaps a good power instead could be light creation? Just the ability to make body parts or weapons shine like a candle or torch. Light is always something a low-level party needs and this would be neat to have.

    Devoted Spirit could get something like a Paladin's lay on hand. If that is too broad.

    Diamond Mind... I would give them meditation abilities before dispelling, that doesn't seem to be a thing that that discipline does. Maybe look at Autohypnosis (The skill) for starters? Perhaps they could get the ability to heal themselves of mental effects through meditation. It's also about extremely focused use of force. Perhaps they could do something like taking 20 on strength checks to break objects? Perhaps they can go without food and water, through meditation?

    Setting Sun is about... judo moves. Hm. Perhaps instead of throwing enemies around, they could do similar things to structures? A boulder falls on a master of Setting Sun, he just deflects it slightly aside?



    I think one thing to keep in mind is that they shouldn't be combat things, they have those from maneuvers already.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2019-02-26 at 12:06 PM.
    I solemnly swear,
    To devote my life and abilities,
    In defence of the United Nations of Earth,
    To defend the Constitution of Man,
    And to further the universal rights of all sentient life.
    From the depths of the pacific, to the edge of the galaxy.
    For as long as I shall live.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    My problem with fire creation for Desert Wind is basically that they can already do that. Or at least as a DM, I would totally allow, say, a strike that deals fire damage to light a campfire. (Setting Sun, despite the name, does not feel to me as if it should have light powers.)

    Perhaps a good power instead could be light creation? Just the ability to make body parts or weapons shine like a candle or torch. Light is always something a low-level party needs and this would be neat to have.

    Devoted Spirit could get something like a Paladin's lay on hand. If that is too broad.

    Diamond Mind... I would give them meditation abilities before dispelling, that doesn't seem to be a thing that that discipline does. Maybe look at Autohypnosis (The skill) for starters? Perhaps they could get the ability to heal themselves of mental effects through meditation. It's also about extremely focused use of force. Perhaps they could do something like taking 20 on strength checks to break objects? Perhaps they can go without food and water, through meditation?

    Setting Sun is about... judo moves. Hm. Perhaps instead of throwing enemies around, they could do similar things to structures? A boulder falls on a master of Setting Sun, he just deflects it slightly aside?



    I think one thing to keep in mind is that they shouldn't be combat things, they have those from maneuvers already.
    The other thing to consider is that anything we do will up the power level, since more options usually translates to more power. One idea is Martial Practices from 4e, gated behind a feat? Think rituals that are martial. Avoids some power creep, out of combat only, and cool and flexible.
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  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMS View Post
    The other thing to consider is that anything we do will up the power level, since more options usually translates to more power. One idea is Martial Practices from 4e, gated behind a feat? Think rituals that are martial. Avoids some power creep, out of combat only, and cool and flexible.
    To avoid power creep one option is to make there be a separate feat for each discipline which gives one the utility benefits of that discipline. They could have the same prereqs, say some number of ranks in the relevant skill and at least one maneuver from that discipline.
    My homebrew:

    Spoiler
    Show


    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



    Worthwhile links:

    Age of Warriors

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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    That would be clean, but perhaps get one from class? As feats are still so scarce for melee. That would fulfill what Cosi says, about the default being an adept of one discipline, but then with the option to branch out.

    Edit: They could be formatted as tactical feats, potentially. Noncombat equivalents to the combat tactical feats the disciplines already have.

    Or they could just be utility maneuvers. I don't actually think any but a couple of the things we've mentioned would be overpowered as at-wills.

    I know Eldan mentioned this earlier up, but it seems like most of them could be stances, too. A Shadow Hand stance that lets you travel as a wraith through the plane of shadow, crossing great distances in the mortal world, Diamond Mind meditation stance that gives you benefits if you spend one hour in it, the earth-shaping Stone Dragon stance Eldan mentioned and so on.

    Setting Sun is about using cleverness to overcome larger opponents. So I think their shtick should be cleverness and ingenuity. That's not a trait covered by the other disciplines, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Perhaps instead of throwing enemies around, they could do similar things to structures?
    I think this takes it too far from the purely mechanical, leverage-based heart of the discipline.

    But I'm reminded of how in this novel, Theseus, who again is *so* Setting Sun, uses a lever and fulcrum to lift a giant rock. Perhaps SSers have almost MacGyvery resourcefulness? It would fit the theme of the "scrappy hero" that seems tied to the discipline, for example in its legacy weapon story. They could get skill bonuses, create effects equivalent to Grease and Glitterdust, have some effect equivalent to shapesand (refluffed as macgyvering impromptu materials). If Shadow Hand is the "stealthy assassin" side of rogue, then Setting Sun is the "skillmonkey" side. They can break out of jail, or you thrust them in the driver's seat and they learn how to fly the plane on the go, or they figure out how to work the ancient machine.
    Last edited by Elves; 2019-02-26 at 04:57 PM.

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