Finding a better Wu Jen

[petermcleod117]

OK, so from my research, it seems that the Wu Jen class is very roughly based on practitioners of Taoism in China and Japan called Wu, who (according to my admittedly very limited understanding of the faith) would attempt to utilize positive an negative energy to influence the flow of the 5 elements, and visa versa. A fascinating idea for a wizard or cleric archetype, with plenty of flavor to spare.
The only problem is, it seems that only a token amount of effort went into making the actual class into much more than a wizard clone. There are no notes about how a Wu Jen might prepare or cast his spells differently than your average wizard, which stands in stark contrast with the shinto-inspired shugenja which at least has the Ofuda limitation to provide flavor in addition to being a game mechanic.

Anyone know of a preexisting "better Wu Jen"?

[Maat Mons]

As far as official sources, all I know of are the version of Wu Jen in Oriental Adventures, the Sorcerer ACF in Oriental Adventures that swapped you to the Wu Jen spell list, and the version of Wu Jen in Complete Arcane.

[RifleAvenger]

As far as official sources, all I know of are the version of Wu Jen in Oriental Adventures, the Sorcerer ACF in Oriental Adventures that swapped you to the Wu Jen spell list, and the version of Wu Jen in Complete Arcane.

Spell Compendium also has, like, a two sentence advice blurb that says "add Fire, Water, Earth spells, and spells that deal with wood/plants, metal, and spells that truck with spirits/fey" to the Wu Jen spell list.

As for a total redo, within official materials there's not much. Shugenja, as you said, had a bit more flavor baked in (even if a lot of that flavor makes the class WORSE). Shugenja also has the entirely of Rokugan/L5R d20 material to build off of, though that's technically 3rd party past the initial Rokugan setting book. Wu Jen pretty much has nothing beyond the books Maat Mons mentioned and begging the GM to let you add Spell Compendium spells to your list. None of which alters the casting flavor further from wizard.

I will say that Wu Jen DOES have some differences from Wizard. It has some unique spells, and some spells from the Druid list (potentially a lot more if you follow the advice in SpC). It has the taboo system which forces you to abide specific behaviors or lose spellcasting ability.

Pathfinder has elemental school you can backport for Wizards, including metal/wood, but that still leaves you a wizard and limits you to one element.

If there's anything else to find, it's going to be buried deep in 3rd party materials.

[Ashtagon]

I'd pull in some of the stuff from the 1e wu jen class. And on top of that, I'd use any material for 3e that was aimed at building a western-style "four-element" elementalist. Then, build a list of "metal" spells for the fifth element (fire-earth-water-air-metal).

Note that there are two competing five-element models in eastern "magic". One adds metal as the fifth; the other adds void. The D&D wu jen seems to have been written with "metal" in mind.

[Maat Mons]

use any matrial for 3e that was aimed at building a western-style "four-element" elementalist. Then, build a list of "metal" spells for the fifth element (fire-earth-water-air-metal).

Don't forget to remove "air" and replace it with "wood."

[Khedrac]

There's one thing form the 1st Ed AD&D Wu Jen that I think is best left out, despite the added flavour - spellbooks.

Or, rather the absence of a spell book - the 1st Ed Wu Jen did not scribe their spells in spellbooks, they used a "collection of scrolls" - and if you think the typical wizard's spellbook is vulnerable to accidents, try a backpack full of bits of paper...

Yes, it may be mroe flavourful, but I think the simpler gameplay arising from a spellbook is well wortht eh trade.

[Ashtagon]

Don't forget to remove "air" and replace it with "wood."

Good point. I was working off memory there. Other elemental models if you want to make a variant would be:

Japanese five elements: earth - water - fire - wind - void
Indian (mahābhūta) five elements: earth - water - fire - wind - void
Tibetan (bon) five elements: earth - water - fire - wind - void

Chinese (wu xing) five elements: earth - metal - water - wood - fire

Early Renaissance alchemy: right at the end of this era before the periodic table concept was invented, metal was being conceived of as an element distinct from earth.

[SangoProduction]

If you're looking outside of the strictly 3.5 System, Pathfinder has you set with Kineticist.
(I mean, it's not good, but I don't know too indepth how good Wu Jen is.)

And then Spheres of Power has the Nature and Weather spheres, as well as elemental attacks in the Destruction sphere. This is quite an exceptional option with plenty of customization while not being gimped on power. I mean...it's got a linear spell-scaling, which is below a spellcaster once they are past level 10, and only falls more behind as levels go up.

[Ellrin]

If you like a more Chinese flavor for your wu jen, you might consider replacing the spellbook with a luopan—the geomantic compass you see used in conjunction with feng shui. I won't be able to do much justice to the description, but if you like that sort of Chinese-style mysticism, you should look it up to see how it's actually used. As an example of fluff revision, instead of an hour spent memorizing spells, you could spend an hour using the luopan to study the flow of qi and magical energy to allow you to figure out how you need to adjust your casting for the specific spells you're preparing. Instead of scribing new spells from scrolls/etc., you might analyze the spell formulae and make adjustments to the luopan to account for your new understanding of magic.

Inexpensive spell components could also be refluffed as formulae written out on talismans and joss sticks, which would be burned in the casting.

I dunno, it's 6:30 in the morning and I'm just throwing random thoughts out.

[petermcleod117]

If you like a more Chinese flavor for your wu jen, you might consider replacing the spellbook with a luopan—the geomantic compass you see used in conjunction with feng shui. I won't be able to do much justice to the description, but if you like that sort of Chinese-style mysticism, you should look it up to see how it's actually used. As an example of fluff revision, instead of an hour spent memorizing spells, you could spend an hour using the luopan to study the flow of qi and magical energy to allow you to figure out how you need to adjust your casting for the specific spells you're preparing. Instead of scribing new spells from scrolls/etc., you might analyze the spell formulae and make adjustments to the luopan to account for your new understanding of magic.

Inexpensive spell components could also be refluffed as formulae written out on talismans and joss sticks, which would be burned in the casting.

I dunno, it's 6:30 in the morning and I'm just throwing random thoughts out.

I really like your idea about the geomantic compass. It definitely fits the Wu's fluff quite well; sort of a part mystic, part scientist, using a scientific device to determine the local flow of positive and negative energy and manipulating it using components to influence the cycle of the elements to align with her chosen element. Kinda like the Astrologer from Atlas Press's Occult Lore.

now the question is, how should this be represented mechanically? I would prefer if I could be redirected to a official or 3rd party source, but homebrew is also acceptable.

[DMVerdandi]

Well, One way you could portray it is to use a spell to power erudite. You have the ability to learn all psion powers and arcane spells. Use the Dragon 319 Version. The complete psi version is unbalanced and requires cheese to play.

Convert spell to power does NOT take away verbal and somatic components, so you can still use mantras and mudras to cast your powers. In eastern fantasy, there is no real difference between psychic and magic powers, but in traditions. everything still comes from reiryouku [spirit power].

Those things aside, the power point system alongside the "best" class setup in the game, sets you up for success. Because there are so many spells and powers you can theoretically have access to, the best thing to do is to make a daily, utility list that has all the powers you need for the most part, and then pull out random ones as the situation dictates.
Also, Dorje's [Also known as Vajra "Diamond/Adamant/thunderbolt] are focuses for powers, so you could use those as well.
I take inspiration from old Japanese Occult anime. Tokyo babylon and X, teito monogatari and games like shin megami tensei .





Alternatively, Using the Psionic artificer could work too. Using spell trigger item to create O-fuda would be a cool effect. Also, you would be able to craft awesome magical tools. Even better if you take item familiar.


In a high powered game, you'd gestalt the two.

[petermcleod117]

Well, One way you could portray it is to use a spell to power erudite. You have the ability to learn all psion powers and arcane spells. Use the Dragon 319 Version. The complete psi version is unbalanced and requires cheese to play.

Convert spell to power does NOT take away verbal and somatic components, so you can still use mantras and mudras to cast your powers. In eastern fantasy, there is no real difference between psychic and magic powers, but in traditions. everything still comes from reiryouku [spirit power].

Those things aside, the power point system alongside the "best" class setup in the game, sets you up for success. Because there are so many spells and powers you can theoretically have access to, the best thing to do is to make a daily, utility list that has all the powers you need for the most part, and then pull out random ones as the situation dictates.
Also, Dorje's [Also known as Vajra "Diamond/Adamant/thunderbolt] are focuses for powers, so you could use those as well.
I take inspiration from old Japanese Occult anime. Tokyo babylon and X, teito monogatari and games like shin megami tensei .





Alternatively, Using the Psionic artificer could work too. Using spell trigger item to create O-fuda would be a cool effect. Also, you would be able to craft awesome magical tools. Even better if you take item familiar.


In a high powered game, you'd gestalt the two.

You are correct in stating that eastern religions don't consider their mystic practices "magic". However, the same is also true for many of the western religions and practices: practitioners of Shintoism, Buddhism, Taoism, Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, and even Alchemy would all be gravely insulted if one implied that their mystic practices were "magic".

However, considering all eastern religions to have the same views on the nature of mysticism would be a grave error; though individuals would often practice multiple religions, the faiths themselves viewed the world each in a different light.

Buddhism most resembles what you are describing. Buddhist monks maintained that they weren't actively manipulating the world, but rather the world was responding to their needs as a side-effect of achieving enlightenment.

Shintoism involves communicating with the spirits. Any miracles that occur as a result of the communication is not the result of controlling the spirits, but rather them willingly aiding them.

Taoism most resembles the practice I described above; a mix of alchemy and mysticism, they would seek to understand the flow of the natural world around them and move with that flow. Believe it or not, the ninja practiced a form of this, in the form of "elemental" power, which really involved their understanding of the ways the elements moved. They knew where to set fires in specific places so the wind would blow them where they wanted to, for example; the peasant populace legitimately believed they were commanding the forces of nature, even though they weren't. They were not controlling the forces so much as aiding them in doing what they would naturally do anyway.

[Ashtagon]

I'm not sure any of us are qualified experts on the details of how real-world religions consider magic or mysticism to work.

[petermcleod117]

edit: I just realized this thread is coming dangerously close to breaking the forum rules, so I think we should stop here.

[petermcleod117]

Alternatively, Using the Psionic artificer could work too. Using spell trigger item to create O-fuda would be a cool effect. Also, you would be able to craft awesome magical tools. Even better if you take item familiar.

I was just thinking, you might be onto something with the psionic artificer; though I wouldn't classify it as psionic, I think the artificer might be an even better representating of taoist mysticism than the Wu Jen. After all, he is described as manipulating the flow of energy in the object, and his power is kinda like alchemy in a way.

[Endarire]

The Wizard is sorta what you wanted. Wizards get many of the same spells, prepare spells in a similar manner, and are a core 3.x class.

[Ashtagon]

The Wizard is sorta what you wanted. Wizards get many of the same spells, prepare spells in a similar manner, and are a core 3.x class.

Re-read the OP. The wu jen class's similarity to the wizard is what they called out as the problem. This is the opposite of solving the problem outlined.

[Ashtagon]

Green Ronin's Shaman's Handbook calls out the Chinese wu as one example of the type of character the class is intended to represent. It's written for 3.0, but looks easy enough to convert. I'm reading it for the first time, but the class appears to play like a cleric, but with a spell list more focused on "spirit" monsters (a new cross-type grouping, plus a template to turn animals and humanoids into spirits). I'm not sure it's really the best fit for the wu jen concept though.