Why are the Elder Evils so weak?

[Anthrowhale]

So you could recoup spells in antimagic field by overcoming what is effectively an SR of 39. Doable for a super optimized caster.

That's a good find. I believe the SR is only 35? So at caster level 24 you have a 50% chance of suppressing Malefic Su abilities with an AMF.

First and foremost, I would not consider this defeating Pandorym (especially given that Pandorym is a statless, unbeatable creature).

Right, I meant the shard.

Second, I think that a mind shard of Pandorym could potentially counter with an antipsionic field.

Probably you mean Null Psionics Field? Quite a bit depends on DM interpretation here. Is it equivalent to AMF? In that case, it would be hilarious. "I cast Reality Revision[Null Psionics Field]" <wink out>. If not, I don't see how it helps.

Third, if the PCs were really using a whole bunch of ridiculous shenanigans, I may just consider having Lucathar go into the prison room to cast disjunction.

A DM could certainly change up Lucathar's spells to add a 'you lose' button. However, Lucathar seems to have several 'you win' buttons attached as well. For example, the same Antimagic Field tactic winks out Lucathar.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

First of all, this sounds really cool. However, since we're discussing how powerful the elder evils are, I feel obligated to point out some of Pandorym's defenses against such tactics. A mindshard of pandorym has access to Freedom of Movement through reality revision, has a high Power Resistance (which applies to telekinetic maneuver), potential power immunity through Antipsionic Field, and a high enough concentration score to always manifest while grappled. Also, according to the Rules Compendium, page 64, incorporeal creatures cannot be grappled and it makes no exception for force effects.

The problem with relying on complete chaotic breach is that Pandorym (with a +39 Will Save) will always make the will save unless he rolls a natural 1, and if this does happen he can just return to the material using the undo misfortune or transport traveler function of reality revision.

This is assuming just a mind shard. The full mind is so powerful you can't win unless your DM intercedes. That said, I think that the way your party dealt with Pandorym is 100% awesome; the elder evils are supposed to be a difficult, climactic, and fun challenge, not a battle between players and the DM over who can win a battle of optimization and attrition.

The rest of the party had been one-shotted, but I was the only one who escaped by being the only one who didn't have my mind blank dispelled (because I cast it myself, rather than relying on lower level items). I took out Lucather Majii and a mind-shard on my own within 2 rounds, then one-shotted Obligatum Dumbarse, but not before it broke open the prison using a weapon Lucather gave to it. The DM did a workup for a far more powerful version of Pandorym's mind. I tried to hit it with the anarchic initiate's complete chaotic breach, though it did indeed make its save, so I had to wait 1d4 rounds (rolled a 4) for the breach to open on its own. Incorporeal creatures can't make grapple checks, so they auto-fail them whenever something can manage to grapple them, and I abused the crap out of my action economy to make continual grapple checks while using extra standard actions to continually dispel its remanifested freedom of movement powers. (I got really lucky on my rolls.) I had Supernatural Transformation (Psionics), so PR and dispelling didn't apply on my end. It blasted me a few times, too, and I kept throwing out astral construct, greater concealing amorpha, and fog effects to futz with its targeting (and my personal mind blank effect kept me safe from its mind-affecting stuff). Basically, I worked my little psionic arse off, desperately trying to keep it from escaping and ravaging the multiverse. It was a combination of skill and luck that allowed me to hold it off and then shove it in the breach when it opened, and pure luck that A.) the breach opened at the Spawning Stone, and that B.) Ygorl and Ssendam were both there and powerful enough to tear the thing apart.

It was still pretty epic, and the rest of the party kinda just had to watch, since they were all stunned good and hard from a psionic blast (IIRC). My dispels to free the party failed, so there's that.

Definitely tense, for sure.

(As for The Rules Compendium, it is not errata, and it cannot force a group that does not have it to use it.)

[Mato]

(As for The Rules Compendium, it is not errata, and it cannot force a group that does not have it to use it.)

Is that GitP's motto?

Just toss your rule books in the closet, that way you don't have to obey them and people can't tell you you're wrong.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Is that GitP's motto?

Just toss your rule books in the closet, that way you don't have to obey them and people can't tell you you're wrong.

How do you use a book you don't have? Legally?

[Mato]

How do you use a book you don't have? Legally?

Seeing how there is no law preventing you from using your knowledge of a book you don't own, I'd guess you just use it. It'd be awfully awkward to fail school and have to quit your career when you are fifty years old because you put your kindergarten books up for sale.

Also have to considered the library? Mine has several of the 3.5 rulebooks and like fifteen of the 5th edition PHBs they picked up as a reading promotion. They are almost always checked out through.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Seeing how there is no law preventing you from using your knowledge of a book you don't own, I'd guess you just use it.

It'd be awfully awkward to fail school and have to quit your career when you are fifty years old because you put your kindergarten books up for sale.

Use a book I don't own and have never read?

That's..."illogical" is a polite way to put it.

My PHB says:

Incorporeal: Having no physical body. Incorporeal creatures are immune to all nonmagical attack forms. They can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, +1 or better magic weapons, spells, spell-like effects, or supernatural effects. Even when struck by spells, magical effects, or magic weapons, however, they have a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. In addition, rogues cannot employ sneak attacks against incorporeal beings, since such opponents have no vital areas to target. An incorporeal creature has no armor or natural armor bonus (or loses any armor or natural armor bonus it may have when corporeal), but it gains a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma modifier or +1, whichever is greater. Such creatures can move in any direction and even pass through solid objects at will, but not through force effects. Therefore, their attacks negate the bonuses provided by natural armor, armor, and shields, but deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against them. Incorporeal creatures have no weight, do not leave footprints, have no scent and make no noise, so they cannot be heard with Listen checks unless they wish it. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage.

It says absolutely nothing about grappling. But since Pandorym has no Str score, it cannot make grapple checks (and it can't exactly use the Escape Artist ranks it doesn't have, either). As far as I knew, I'd found its one weakness, and the DM allowed it.

So shush.

[Mato]

Use a book I don't own and have never read?

Thanks for shifting the goal posts again. Because when someone tells you what the book says online, you've (probably) read it.

Also, the rules they spoke of is public information.

Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.

What isn't public is incorporeal creatures can grapple incorporeal creatures using their charisma modifiers which is on page 143 of libris mortis and no special force exceptions were added in that update either. But now you know about that too!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Thanks for shifting the goal posts again. Because when someone tells you what the book says online, you've (probably) read it.

You just told me, yes. But did you tell me that several years ago? That's not how time works.

Also

I gave you everything my PHB has in the glossary. It is not that. That likely includes errata, or it's possibly a source I wasn't using at the time. The DMG, maybe?

But if my primary source does not say incorporeality precludes grappling, I'm going to trust that grappling is not precluded.

Now stop using illogic and either be useful or go away.

[Mato]

But if my primary source

Your "primary source" on a monster's incorporeal subtype is and always has been the MM1, not the PHB. LM & the RC are updates.

{scrubbed}

[ExLibrisMortis]

Incorporeal creatures can't make grapple checks, so they auto-fail them whenever something can manage to grapple them [...]

Not to ruin a good story, but this is incorrect. Incorporeal creatures can't make grapple attacks, they can't take any action that physically manipulates their opponent, they cannot be grappled (except by incorporeal creatures, who can grapple eachother normally, using Charisma instead of Strength), and they're not subject to actions that physically manipulate them. However, they can make grapple checks (badly).

Presumably the actions that physically manipulate an opponent include "damage opponent", "escape from grapple", "pin opponent", and "escape pin". That would mean that incorporeal creatures get to make a roll against whatever grapple checks come their way (because you don't have to take an action), but they can't really participate in grappling otherwise. Escape Artist might allow them to escape a grapple, but it might count as "physical manipulation". Of course, a mind shard of Pandorym has +2 on Escape Artist, so it's not exactly likely to work even if allowed.

Oh, and mind shards are Huge, so any Medium or smaller creature automatically fails the check to grapple a mind shard.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Meh. That's how things worked out. Mistakes were made, the multiverse was saved, don't care if our fun came at the expense of rules that were tucked away in a place we didn't think to look.

Bored now. Gonna go do something significantly more interesting.

[Zecrin]

That's a good find. I believe the SR is only 35? So at caster level 24 you have a 50% chance of suppressing Malefic Su abilities with an AMF.

You are correct, the SR is 35 but since the hypothetical involved a divine caster they would be at -4 CL because of the sign, (not that it makes that much difference though).

Probably you mean Null Psionics Field? Quite a bit depends on DM interpretation here. Is it equivalent to AMF? In that case, it would be hilarious. "I cast Reality Revision[Null Psionics Field]" <wink out>. If not, I don't see how it helps.

That's the one! Fortunently, since the mind shard has null psionic field as an PLA, he doesn't have to expend a precious reality revision. The interesting thing is, as far as I can tell, null psionic field has no effect on incorporeal creatures. You are 100% correct that what happens when these effects overlap is up to the DM, because its not necessarily the same situation as when two antimagic fields overlap (discussed in the rules compendium). I imagine though that the vast majority of DMs would rule that the mindshard is not blinked out in this scenario though simply because:

A. This is a reasonable interpretation.
B. This would be very anticlimactic otherwise.

A DM could certainly change up Lucathar's spells to add a 'you lose' button. However, Lucathar seems to have several 'you win' buttons attached as well. For example, the same Antimagic Field tactic winks out Lucathar.

You don't even have to change up his spells; he has disjunction in his spellbook. However, no sane DM would or should ever do this because:

A. The writers of EE obviously didn't intend for this to happen.
B. It would feel SUPER unfair to players.
C. There's no real counterplay.

I would only ever consider this if the players pulled some super optimizer shenanigans (like ice assassin on a deity) to trivialize an otherwise very difficult fight.

The cool thing about Pandorym is that he's a very versatile elder evil. Low-mid optimized full casters and highly optimized tier 3s can be significantly challenged by Pandorym's mind shards. Optimized full casters can be challenged by the customizable full mind. And then the consequences of failure can always be the final form, mind and body together, which can explicitly end the setting.

No matter how I look at it, in the hands of a competent DM, Pandorym can always represent a challenge.

[Anthrowhale]

You are correct, the SR is 35 but since the hypothetical involved a divine caster they would be at -4 CL because of the sign, (not that it makes that much difference though).

A better approach is to have the party wizard cast it with a prayer bead of karma (triggered via Imbue with Spell Ability) and an Orange Ioun stone to hit caster level 25. These are common core buffs at character level 20 which together succeed 55% of the time. With multiple castings (AMF is dismissable) you succeed with high probability. With mild optimization (i.e. arcane mastery) you succeed 100% of the time. With high optimization (i.e. persistomancer initiate of mystra with circle magic) you don't even notice divine enervation.

That's the one! Fortunently, since the mind shard has null psionic field as an PLA, he doesn't have to expend a precious reality revision.

It still seems like a dubious strategy to me. Even in the most favorable interpretation (Null Psionics is not AMF but magic/psionics transparency is on and the AMF is suppressed but not the Null Psionics Field), this strategy still results in Pandorym's shard being unable to use psionics or su abilities which neuters nearly all attack forms.

Obviously, the DM could bend the rules for more drama as you suggest or ignore the RC as MaxiDuRarity suggests.

You don't even have to change up his spells; he has disjunction in his spellbook.

But not in spells memorized, so yes this is some customization.

No matter how I look at it, in the hands of a competent DM, Pandorym can always represent a challenge.

Pandorym is one of the better elder evils and one of the more robust statblocks I've seen---I'm not really trying to rain on Pandorym. At the same time, it's kind of fun to figure out the weaknesses. For example, another spell which gives the mind shard problems is Ghost Trap, an SR:No spell which completely negates incorporeality in a 100' radius.

[Eldariel]

Mind Shard should 100 % have a psionic version of Extraordinary Spell Aim ("Extraordinary Power Aim"), for Null Psionics Field alone (most of its feats are pretty trash anyways). Otherwise it's just kinda silly.

[danielxcutter]

Okay, I missed a lot.

Let's start with the biggie: when I was talking about Cloud Chariot I was talking about a general workaround for "no teleportz for u"; 100 miles in ten minutes should be decent for most things on the same continent.

Also, I'm pretty sure Elder Evils in general was designed for non-epic PCs; it's not like Great Wyrms weren't, after all.

To be honest... I think the Sign of Binding is really obnoxious. It's like the Pandorym campaign was intentionally stacked in favor of non-Conjurer arcanists or something, jeez.

[Eldariel]

Okay, I missed a lot.

Let's start with the biggie: when I was talking about Cloud Chariot I was talking about a general workaround for "no teleportz for u"; 100 miles in ten minutes should be decent for most things on the same continent.

Also, I'm pretty sure Elder Evils in general was designed for non-epic PCs; it's not like Great Wyrms weren't, after all.

To be honest... I think the Sign of Binding is really obnoxious. It's like the Pandorym campaign was intentionally stacked in favor of non-Conjurer arcanists or something, jeez.

Meh. Conjurers still have all their awesome BFC. The school is just that good.

[danielxcutter]

Meh. Conjurers still have all their awesome BFC. The school is just that good.

The Binding Circles(or whatever the precise name was) impede all Conjuration spells(not just those blocked by the Sign) and boost Necromancy spells, but a well optimized Conjurer can probably still make the check easily without even specifically optimizing for that - I mean, don't most people pump Spellcraft, anyways?

[Zecrin]

It still seems like a dubious strategy to me. Even in the most favorable interpretation (Null Psionics is not AMF but magic/psionics transparency is on and the AMF is suppressed but not the Null Psionics Field), this strategy still results in Pandorym's shard being unable to use psionics or su abilities which neuters nearly all attack forms.

Again, totally up to the DM. I personally imagined that the two would cancel each other out. A DM could also interpret the line: "elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned" from the text of antimagic field in such a way that Pandorym would not wink out.

But not in spells memorized, so yes this is some customization.

I definitely don't consider this customization. Lucather is a wizard; he has the ability to change the spells he knows daily, so long as all spells are in his spellbook. He has disjunction in that spell book. He is using a class feature he already has, combined with an item he already has. I suppose you could technically call this customization, but in my mind customization involves things like changing feats, spells/powers known, existing items, and skills.

[Mato]

The Binding Circles(or whatever the precise name was) impede all Conjuration spells(not just those blocked by the Sign) and boost Necromancy spells, but a well optimized Conjurer can probably still make the check easily without even specifically optimizing for that - I mean, don't most people pump Spellcraft, anyways?

You mean concentration? There are quite a few things overlaid, getting a little mixed up is kind of expected.

Spoiler

Show

Pandorym's Seal of Binding
All conjuration (calling, summoning, & teleportation) effects fail, divination to contact extraplanar beings fail, divine spellcasters have a 20% chance to fail regaining each spell, then there is a -4 penalty to divine CLs and a -20 penalty to turn/rebuke undead.

The Prison Complex's Aura of Entropy
Natural healing is disabled, turn/rebuke's duration is halved, -4 on saves against permanent level loss, anyone that dies gets reanimated as vampires/ghouls in 1d4 rounds and there is a 10% chance the mind and body reanimated separately giving you two undead creatures.

The Prison Complex's Outer Circle's Binding
Necromancy is auto-extended, all conjuration spells required a DC 30+level concentration check or fail.

The Prison Complex's Inner Circle's Binding (it adds to the outer circle)
Necromancy is also auto-empowered, undead gain turn resistance +8, all conjuration (calling, summoning, & teleportation) effects fail which is sort of redundant during the encounter given the sign's effect.

Lucather's Intercession
Targets a specific divine spellcaster, they cannot cast spells or turn/rebuke undead for one minute. If their divine caster level is 11 or lower, the duration is twenty four hours.

Lucather's Unsettling Enchantment
-2 attack & AC for one round even if you save against Lucather's enchantment spells.

Obligatum VII's Mind over Magic
Twice per day as a free action he can reflect any targeted spell cast at him (as spell turning).

Pandorym's Psionic Draw
Manifesting requires a DC 15+level concentration check or costs twice as many power points.

Pandorym's Divine Enervation
Divine spellcasters within 1,000 miles cannot regain spells.

Pandorym's Divinity Siphon
If you have a divine caster level, he can link with you for up to one minute dealing 1d4 negative levels and healing 20hp per round if you fail a DC 48 will save.

Pandorym's Telepathic Backlash
Casting telepathy/enchantment on Pandorym hits you with feeblemind (dc 48) potentially negating your spellcasting.

Pandorym's Mental Subjugation
Every round you need to make a DC 48 save against dominate, on success you take one point of wisdom damage.

Pandorym's Corporealize
Not really an aura or effect, but Pandorym can have up to twelve tentacles with 15ft reach which he should be able to full attack with as all other natural weapons can. At +50 incorpereal touch it's not going to miss, deals 1d6 & +2 per divine caster level which means a 20th level cleric or druid takes a bit over forty damage per hit.

Spells/Powers
Both Lucather & Pandorym can provide crowd controlling effects in addition to all of this. They both also have dark whispers, Lucather's staggers everyone with less than 23HD (confuses if more) and DC 24 will negs while Pandorym's goes up to 50HD and is DC 48. Lucather & Obligatum VII also have bonuses on saves against divine spells.

Supersize Me
The supplement notes Lucather has access to disjunction, time stop, & prismatic wall allowing him to break critical magical items and protect Obligatum VII while he chips at the prison. Pandorym also has 20,000xp he can spend on reality revision & bend reality allowing the DM to copy the party's attempt to optimize using spell/power based tricks.

The good news is XP is adjusted to 125% for the encounter's circumstances.

[danielxcutter]

Oh yeah, right. Still, Concentration is another skill most spellcasters boost out the roof... max ranks on a 20th-level character is +23, with 14 base Constitution and an Amulet of Health +6 that goes up to +28. That's a 50% chance of making the check for a 9th-level spell, without additional boosts - and remember, skill checks are apparently really easy to boost out the stratosphere.

[GeminiVeil]

Hope this is on topic enough where I don't have to start a new thread. If so, I will do that.
Noticed Zargon had an attack option listed as 'Epic Strike'. I can't find this ability anywhere. Checked the Epic level handbook and the same book Zargon is in, and can't find it.
Anyone know where this ability is located? Book and Page number if possible. Thanks!

[HouseRules]

Hope this is on topic enough where I don't have to start a new thread. If so, I will do that.
Noticed Zargon had an attack option listed as 'Epic Strike'. I can't find this ability anywhere. Checked the Epic level handbook and the same book Zargon is in, and can't find it.
Anyone know where this ability is located? Book and Page number if possible. Thanks!

A change in the DR system.
+1 to +5 are all "Magic Strike", bypasses DR/Magic or DR X/+1 to DR X/+5 (from 3.0 ear games)
+6 to +10 are all "Epic Strike", bypasses DR/Epic or DR X/+6 to DR X/+10 (from 3.0 era games)

[Mr Adventurer]

It's not a separate attack - it's noting that Zargon's weapons count as Epic magical weapons for the purposes of overcoming DR.

[danielxcutter]

Hmm... How do you manage not to lose a PC each round, with that positively ridiculous attack routine? The best I can think of is Stoneskin + Greater Blink, but that's not easy to get on everyone, especially at the level you're supposed to fight Zargon?