Optimized Wizard Spell Combos

[StevenC21]

I know that optimized Wizards are extremely powerful. However, I am confused as to how they are at high levels, against enemies, by themselves. I recognize that they get crazy awesome buffs to the party's beat stick, but at that point, damage dealing is worthless for mages, and most enemies aren't subject to the normal "OP" effects like Enervation. What spells should I be casting?

Assume that I'm a level 20 pure Wizard with a 25 in Intelligence, if it happens to matter.

If you can give explicit examples of powerful spell combinations, that would be nice, ESPECIALLY those that directly harm enemies in some way, preferably not boosting allies or summoning allies (I'm looking at you, Gate-Chaining Solars).

What I mean specifically is that the vast majority of high tier enemies have immunity to ability damage/negative levels/high DR/high energy resistance.

What are you supposed to do to contribute at those levels? I haven't played at that tier yet and I'm hopeful that I can be enlightened.

[flappeercraft]

I know that optimized Wizards are extremely powerful. However, I am confused as to how they are at high levels, against enemies, by themselves. I recognize that they get crazy awesome buffs to the party's beat stick, but at that point, damage dealing is worthless for mages, and most enemies aren't subject to the normal "OP" effects like Enervation. What spells should I be casting?

Assume that I'm a level 20 pure Wizard with a 25 in Intelligence, if it happens to matter.

If you can give explicit examples of powerful spell combinations, that would be nice, ESPECIALLY those that directly harm enemies in some way, preferably not boosting allies or summoning allies (I'm looking at you, Gate-Chaining Solars).

What I mean specifically is that the vast majority of high tier enemies have immunity to ability damage/negative levels/high DR/high energy resistance.

What are you supposed to do to contribute at those levels? I haven't played at that tier yet and I'm hopeful that I can be enlightened.

A favorite of mine when not going full TO broken OP is using Shapechange for Zodar wishes and then Celerity to cast Reserves of Strength Maximize Empowered Orb of Force. Assuming you have a CL of 30 prior to RoS which you should be able to get trivially you get 198+(33d6/2). This is an average of 255.75 damage per orb and its an autohit. Enough for most stuff as for example a Pit Fiend has 225 HP and is CR 20. If you want to get more dakka just twin it or pump your CL.

So lets do a sample build with relative to no effort.

Spoiler: Sample Build

Show

Race: Human

PB 32:
Str 8
Dex 14
Con 16 (+6 enhancement +5 Inherent)
Int 18 (+6 enhancement +5 inherent)
Wis 8
Cha 8

Feats:
Maximize Spell
Twin Spell
Empty Slot (Flaw)
Empty Slot (Flaw)
Empower Spell
Easy Metamagic Twin
Arcane Thesis Orb of Force
Iron Will (Otyugh Hole)
Reserves of Strength
Persistent Spell
Empty Slot (12th Level)
Empty Slot (15th Level)
Empty Slot (Wizard Bonus)
Empty Slot (18th Level)
Empty Slot (Wizard Bonus)

Magic Items:
Orange Ioun Stone
Ring of Arcane Might
Amulet of Health +6
Headband of Intellect +6

Buffs:
RoS Persistent Suffer the Flesh (CL 24)
Shapechange
Favor of the Martyr (Via Zodar Wishes)

CL: 20 +1 Ioun Stone +1 Ring +12 Suffer the Flesh = 34

Same combo as above but Twinned orbs and celerity and you get a damage of 222+(37d6/2) per orb at an average of 286.75 per orb and shoot 4, this means an average of 1,147 if all hit. The first one always hits, affects people in AMF, hard to be immune to, no save, no SR, is a touch attack and hits incorporeal. If you want you can also switch it for Orb of Fire and add the Searing Spell metamagic which also dazes for a round if the enemy fails a fort save which is done once per orb. Searing makes it bypass resistances and half damage against immune opponents. If using the Orb of Force variant just be careful with opponents having the buff Forceward.

[StevenC21]

I just want to say I really appreciate this. Do you have any others? I'm potentially going to have a chance to play a powerful (level 20) caster and this is something I feel I need to be ready for to do the role justice.

[ben-zayb]

Any combination featuring any two of Control Winds, Reverse Gravity, and Prismatic Sphere comes to mind.

Solid Fog + Cloudkill or Forcecage + Cloudkill would be deadly

Those combos IMO are wasted spell slots to be honest. What I like about spellcasters is that even one spell could already provide a sooution

EDIT: Also look at some suggestions from this past thread

[StevenC21]

I like the Cloudkill combo, but the primary issue with that is that most high level creatures are immune to ability damage, and would completely ignore that spell. I am looking for abilities that can harm high tier enemies, such as Orcus from the BoVD. Is this even possible?

[Silva Stormrage]

Oh jeez okay so the main thing for optimized solo wizard combat is that a lot of the times they just can't die.

Foresight + Celerity means they pretty much always go first. If they are ambushed they can just use foresight to cast greater teleport or time stop and just flee if they feel like it. And thats not even counting things like contingencies or craft contingencies which are often described as being like if in a game of chess you could make a move during an opponents turn.

At level 20 they can be hiding in their demiplane/mage's magnificent mansion and be utterly unfindable due to mind blank and they only ever adventure in short bursts. This allows them to specifically pick which spells are needed and never have to worry about ambushes while they sleep (For the most part. Wish Teleporting and other such high op tactics can get around that).

But to help clear up a few things.

1) At that level wizards doing damage can be brutally effective. Cast Extended Time Stop (Metamagic Rod of Extend) and then cast 5 maws of chaos on a target. Even with no CL boosts (Which can easily boost your CL to 40) thats 100d6 unavoidable untyped damage without a save in a 15ft radius. Plus 5 saves or be dazed and suffer that damage again the next round.

Even without burning their high level slots in one burst like that they can still do enough damage to one shot pretty much anything. Arcane Thesis (Orb of Fire) + Empower Spell + Searing Spell + Practical Metamagic (Empower) + Twin Spell + Practical Twin + Metamagic Rod of Maximize results in a 6th level spell slot dealing ~270 unresistable damage plus a save versus daze. And dedicated metamagic stacking with the help of PRC's or more optimization can easily boost that number to the thousands of damage.

2) A lot of spells for some reason just don't offer a saving throw. Force Cage + Maw of Chaos + Dimensional Lock is a classic combo that just kills creatures that can't break out of a forcecage or dispel the dimensional lock.

If they are immune to negative levels due to death ward you can use disjunction or if they are immune due to an item a chained greater dispel magic can prevent most of their items from working.

Sure negative levels and mind affecting and other various "Go to" status effects can be ineffective on certain monsters or characters due to items/buffs and what have you. Rarely are creatures immune to ALL of them at the same time. Just prepare the right tool for the job.

Death by thorns is a save and be incapacitated for 1d4 rounds. It kills on a failed save. There are plenty of spells like it.

3) At that level there are spells like Shapechange or Hide Life that just radically change how the game is played. Shapechange into an elemental weird and now you have free action divinations from an incredibly wide list just to start. Hide Life basically makes you immune to hit point damage.


The really good 9th level spells aren't so much "Combo Material" but rather by themselves they shatter the game balance into a million pieces if used optimally.

[StevenC21]

Can you elaborate on what 9th level spells are "really, really good"?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you happen to roll really low on your damage dice for a direct damage spell and need a bit of extra oomph to finish a foe off, a Fell Drain sonic snap with a bit of extra metamagic applied (like, say, Twin/Repeat) will throw out a few nigh irresistible negative levels. The target has to be immune to sonic damage (which doesn't happen very often) or be immune to negative levels (which is pretty rare for most races that have class levels, or for the big bruisers that are popular at high levels). A metamagicked Fell Drain power word: pain is even worse, though it's a level higher and requires the target to have less than 100 hp. Really, the only defense against either one of those (aside from the above) is SR.

If you're aware of the locate city bomb, you can use a permanencied detect magic/good/evil/law/chaos with those feats applied so you have an at-will explosive cone that affects everything in your path as you walk towards them. Widen to double the length AND width of the cone. Sculpt Spell to form it into a spread to move around corners, or to otherwise shape the effect into something unusual. Add Fell Drain to that, and you also have a constant negative level area at your disposal. Nasty stuff.

[flappeercraft]

Can you elaborate on what 9th level spells are "really, really good"?

Only from Core since if not this list would be too long I would say the top 9th are Shapechange, Time Stop and Wish. However Shapechange is quite definitely at the top since it gets you access to Wish 1/round. Out of core one of my favorites is Genesis followed by Hide Life.

Well I’ll share a couple of the kinda obscure combos that I’ve seen on the forums, essentially those I have seen like once or twice mentioned at most. Or just plain modifications of the standard version.

1. Genesis to create a fast time demiplane at a speed of 999^999 times faster than the material and kidnap some random commoner or any fodder creature like a kobold or something. Now mindrape it to love whoever you want to harm. Now cast Love’s Pain multiple times against the commoner and your target will be dead.

2. Get some Vorpal weapon and Persistent Shapechange (possible in many ways such as via Incantatrix), now use a Zodar wish to replicate Favor of the Martyr which you should also make persistent and cast Sense Weakness. Now cast Contingency via a Zodar Wish to cast Surge of Fortune which is also put there via a Zodar Wish. Now use the immediate to trigger Surge of Fortune and a standard to attack. Works as an insta kill against most targets.

3. Cast Genesis to get an Enhanced Magic trait demiplane for automatic persist and extend spell. Now cast all your buffs there. You can adventure every other day with your spell slots complete and without worry of the buffs running out.

[StevenC21]

I'd like to say that I *love* option 2. That is hilarious and awesome.

Question about number 1, though. How would you deal with Love's Pain causing you to take Intelligence damage? That's pretty significant.

[Silva Stormrage]

Can you elaborate on what 9th level spells are "really, really good"?

Gate, Shapechange, Wish, Time Stop, Foresight, Genesis, Ice Assassin, Astral Projection (You can get it earlier via planar binding but it still counts), Hide Life and Chain Contingency are the major offenders. In my opinion.

[Kalkra]

I'd like to say that I *love* option 2. That is hilarious and awesome.

Question about number 1, though. How would you deal with Love's Pain causing you to take Intelligence damage? That's pretty significant.

Sheltered Vitality prevents Love's Pain, but Love's Pain is SR: Yes. It seems like that should be the commoner, not the giant monster who you made the commoner love, but it specifically mentioned that being in an AMF protects the recipient of the damage, so it could be that SR would work too.

[flappeercraft]

I'd like to say that I *love* option 2. That is hilarious and awesome.

Question about number 1, though. How would you deal with Love's Pain causing you to take Intelligence damage? That's pretty significant.

Ability damage immunities are trivial to obtain. The aforementioned Sheltered vitality should do the trick but in a demiplane that fast you could just sleep it off and it would be just the same.

Sheltered Vitality prevents Love's Pain, but Love's Pain is SR: Yes. It seems like that should be the commoner, not the giant monster who you made the commoner love, but it specifically mentioned that being in an AMF protects the recipient of the damage, so it could be that SR would work too.

Nothing RAW indicates it should. Plus SR and AMF are quite different, its like saying Orb of Force should bypass the blue layer of a Prismatic Wall because its a force effect like magic missile. Also the SR would be against the target, if the commoner makes the save and is the one targetted then it should also be the one checked for SR.

[Pippin]

May I kindly hijack this thread to ask something I've been wondering.

How do you get an ECL17 Wyrm Wizard to learn 9th-level divine spells? Sure he could be a kobold and have access to epic spells, which means he could add 9th-level divine spells to his spell list. But since he has at most 16 spellcasting levels, he can't cast 9th-level arcane spells, which means he can't cast them.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

May I kindly hijack this thread to ask something I've been wondering.

How do you get an ECL17 Wyrm Wizard to learn 9th-level divine spells? Sure he could be a kobold and have access to epic spells, which means he could add 9th-level divine spells to his spell list. But since he has at most 16 spellcasting levels, he can't cast 9th-level arcane spells, which means he can't cast them.

A couple of levels in sublime chord that you progress with wyrm wizard? Three levels in illithid savant to eat a clone of a higher level wizard? Heighten Spell shenanigans to boost your spells higher than your normal level? Sanctum Spell? Versatile Spellcaster? (Probably not this one.)

[Pippin]

A couple of levels in sublime chord that you progress with wyrm wizard? Three levels in illithid savant to eat a clone of a higher level wizard? Heighten Spell shenanigans to boost your spells higher than your normal level? Sanctum Spell? Versatile Spellcaster? (Probably not this one.)

Can you bring more details about the first option? Sublime Chord's text is extremely obscure, I'm not sure how you get what you want with it. The second option is... hilarious, and brilliant in a way, doesn't it work for anything and everything? (The other options are not solid enough IMHO.)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Can you bring more details about the first option? Sublime Chord's text is extremely obscure, I'm not sure how you get what you want with it.

Some early entry tricks on sublime chord (such as with bloodlines to increase your skill cap) would mean you could get access to 9th level spells several levels early, meaning the lost levels from wyrm wizard would put you about on par with where you'd otherwise have been, depending on how early you can squeeze into it. 2 levels of sublime chord grant a new casting paradigm and song of arcane power, the former of which can be advanced using wyrm wizard. If (even after the lost CLs) you gain 9ths at 18th level and gain spell research at 18th, 19th, or 20th (depending on your exact build), you'd be able to research a 9th level spell, as you like.

Wizard 4/Bloodline A 1/Bloodline B 1/Bloodline C 1/Wyrm Wizard 2/Prestige Bard 1/Sublime Chord 2/Wyrm Wizard 8/PrC 3 might work for this. Though isn't there a PrC out there that grants both bardic music and a caster level at level 1? That'd work better than prestige bard, obviously. 3.0 virtuoso would do it, though 3.5 would not.

Alternately, Bard 1/Wizard 4/Bloodlines A, B, and C 1 each/Wyrm Wizard 2/Sublime Chord 2/Wyrm Wizard 8/PrC 3. That allows the bloodlines to advance both bard and wizard stuff, and it doesn't really lose anything compared to the first one, if you start at higher levels, to offset the problems with losing a CL at low levels. But if you can replace bard with a full-casting bardic music PrC...

The second option is... hilarious, and brilliant in a way, doesn't it work for anything and everything?

Pretty much.

(The other options are not solid enough IMHO.)

Why not? Heightening to 9ths means you can cast 9th level spells, because that's what Heighten does. Even if you can't cast shapechange and wish, that doesn't mean you can't research them. Also, Sanctum Spell either lowers the effective spell level of a spell by 1 or raises it by 1, depending on where you cast it. This works the same way as Heighten (or a negative Heighten, again depending on where you cast it). This does have applications, even if you can't actually cast the spell you've researched under normal circumstances. Using scrolls of the researched spell, or using Versatile Spellcaster to cast it spontaneously are just two I came up with off the top of my head.

[Ruethgar]

Mnemonic Enhancer, except for Heighten(and its derivatives), War, and Sanctum spells, nothing really adjusts spell level, only spell slot. So spend a 4th level slot to metamagic the hell out of a 4th level(with Sanctum) spell for free, like Orb of Force.

Edit: As far as getting Bardic Music, a Masterwork Lute grants it to you as a 1st level Bard. If the further reaches of technically official content are available, a Legendary Lute from the Master class gives you music as a 5th level Bard.

[Pippin]

Some early entry tricks on sublime chord (such as with bloodlines to increase your skill cap) would mean you could get access to 9th level spells several levels early, meaning the lost levels from wyrm wizard would put you about on par with where you'd otherwise have been, depending on how early you can squeeze into it. 2 levels of sublime chord grant a new casting paradigm and song of arcane power, the former of which can be advanced using wyrm wizard. If (even after the lost CLs) you gain 9ths at 18th level and gain spell research at 18th, 19th, or 20th (depending on your exact build), you'd be able to research a 9th level spell, as you like.

Wizard 4/Bloodline A 1/Bloodline B 1/Bloodline C 1/Wyrm Wizard 2/Prestige Bard 1/Sublime Chord 2/Wyrm Wizard 8/PrC 3 might work for this. Though isn't there a PrC out there that grants both bardic music and a caster level at level 1? That'd work better than prestige bard, obviously. 3.0 virtuoso would do it, though 3.5 would not.

Alternately, Bard 1/Wizard 4/Bloodlines A, B, and C 1 each/Wyrm Wizard 2/Sublime Chord 2/Wyrm Wizard 8/PrC 3. That allows the bloodlines to advance both bard and wizard stuff, and it doesn't really lose anything compared to the first one, if you start at higher levels, to offset the problems with losing a CL at low levels. But if you can replace bard with a full-casting bardic music PrC...

Each build is ECL18, if I'm not mistaken, and the goal is ECL17. Just to clarify things, "we just need to" find a build with only two Wyrm Wizard levels (the last two ones: 16 and 17) and with access to 9th-level arcane spells by ECL16 or before. If there's a way to take 9 levels of Sublime Chord all the way from ECL6, it's done. 3 bloodline levels make it possible to have 12 ranks by ECL6, so it's almost possible.

Why not? Heightening to 9ths means you can cast 9th level spells, because that's what Heighten does. Even if you can't cast shapechange and wish, that doesn't mean you can't research them. Also, Sanctum Spell either lowers the effective spell level of a spell by 1 or raises it by 1, depending on where you cast it. This works the same way as Heighten (or a negative Heighten, again depending on where you cast it). This does have applications, even if you can't actually cast the spell you've researched under normal circumstances. Using scrolls of the researched spell, or using Versatile Spellcaster to cast it spontaneously are just two I came up with off the top of my head.

To me you don't have the ability to cast 9th-level spells, because if I give you a random scroll, you won't be able to cast the spell from it. That's what a DM might say, that's why I said it's not solid enough to me =(

[Segev]

Requires some metamagic feats, but a recent "discovery" (to me) was invisible cold-substituted uttercold wall of fire as battlefield control for a minion-focused necromancer. His undead are either taking no damage or healing half damage while in that region, it only looks like a well-lit area, and it's a pretty broad area for persistant damage. Also, it's only a level 4 spell slot (albeit 3 metamagic feats).

Foresight + celerity have already been mentioned. These ensure that you can't lose your immediate action and let you turn it into a standard action, meaning you can teleport away, at the very least.

There's an entire google document somebody put together on shapechange that is amazing. The thread linking to it on these forums has the word "shapechange" in it, so if you search for that keyword you should be able to find it.

A not-particularly-optimal stunt is to use polymorph any object to turn a random pebble into something big and nasty and angry that's standing in the middle of your enemies. Hydras are fun.

Build- and theme-specific, but the Mother Cyst feat gives access to a line of spells which let you infest people with markers that let you scry around them, control them, and use them as living bombs to hurt others. Very thematic for an evil slave-master/necromaster. Command undead will keep the resulting Skulking Cyst monsters friendly to you, and let you send them out to infect more people with the markers (known as Necrotic Cysts). The damage from the spells in this line is always half Vile, which is nigh impossible to resist.

Gate both is an excellent travel spell, and is a great way to pull in any outsider you want. The shapechange thread can give you some good ideas to summon based on the powers it recommends their forms for. Even without cheesing things like Zodar wishes, it can be spiffy.

(Incidentally, shapechanging into a Zodar only gets you ONE wish per year. You can resume the form however many times you like, but you still have cast wish as a Zodar within the last year, and thus can't do it again until the time has passed.)

Astral projection is better than it seems at first, if you don't know the trick. Pay attention to its line about what happens if your astral form is slain. You just wake up back in your own body. A wizard on a private demiplane surrounded by protections can astral project back into the Material, and mostly be indistinguishable from how he would be if he were there legitimately. Except that killing him results in nothing but a need to re-cast astral projection on his part, and a brief trip to find the right color pool before greater teleporting to rejoin his allies. (An active shapechange will let him assume any Archon form to make the greater teleport free.)

Forcecage and dimension lock, as others have intimated, are a good combo to savelessly remove most threats from combat, at least for long enough to do whatever you wanted to do. Solid fog instead of forcecage is almost as effective (limiting movement to 5 ft/round within it, keeping foes from maneuvering out to hinder you). And far less expensive (no 1500 gp ruby dust material component)!

And if you don't natively have a party travelling with you, prepare using the planar binding line of spells to call up as many minions as you want to tailor your incursion force. A horde of Lantern Archons is tons of d8s of damage that ignores DR, though getting enough to make their low attack bonus irrelevant could be challenging even for a high-level caster.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

To me you don't have the ability to cast 9th-level spells, because if I give you a random scroll, you won't be able to cast the spell from it. That's what a DM might say, that's why I said it's not solid enough to me =(

Except you can cast 9ths. A Heightened silent image cast as a 9th level spell is still a 9th level spell. The same goes for a Sanctum Spell'd prismatic wall. The only prereq is that you be able to cast spells of that level out of prepared spell slots (not spell slots of that level). The above qualify for that.

Starting at 2nd level, select one spell from any class's spell list (including divine spells), of a level equal to or lower than the highest-level arcane spell you can prepare and cast.

[Feantar]

Can you elaborate on what 9th level spells are "really, really good"?

Excuse me for butting in -

Spells for Being Immortal:

• Astral Projection[Core]: Essentially gives you an extra life. Usually combined with the spell Genesis, as to leave your body somewhere safe.
• Hide Life[Tome and Blood]: Essentially lichdom without the template, confers a type of death immunity by sticking your lifeforce in a body part (such as a finger) and hiding it somewhere safe. It costs as much as a wish, but it is worth it. Since it is instantaneous, you might be better off paying for a scroll if you don't want to lose XP.
• Stasis Clone[Lords of Darkness]: In the extremely rare case that you're actually killed, and if you don't have any friends / allies / employees / slaves with true resurrection, then this is the next best thing. If you have a thought bottle that you can store your level in, then it's even better.

Spells for Defending your Fragile Wizardly Posterior:

• Superior Invisibility[Complete Arcane]: Utter Sneakiness.
• Time Stop[Core]: Do I need to explain this?
• Wish[Core]: Mostly useless due to the cost, but on the rare occasion, it can be a (literal) life saver.

Spells for Being Always Prepared:

• Chain Contingency[3.0 Players Handbook, Gouda Warning]: As contingency, but three spells. Yes, it is legit, but barely.
• Invoke Magic[Lords of Madness]: Cast a spell, up to level 4, in an antimagic field. There are better ways to do this (Initiate of Mystra, shrink item + metal cone), but this the least convoluted one.
• Shades[Core]: This is mostly useful to avoid costly components.
• Shapechange[Core]: This spell is so useful, you can theoretically make do by just casting it and nothing else. Check the Shapechange Handbook, for a list of what you can get.

Spells for Breaking Things:

• Maw of Chaos[Spell Compendium]: Unless they are of chaotic alignment, this will break them in a round or two.

Minionmancy:

• Dominate Monster[Core]: Yes, many will say that due to immunities, enchantment is useless. However, on the level you've reached, you can do things like bind an outsider(or gate in anything not immune) and use dominate to have them serve you for free. It lasts days per CL, which means a minimum of 17 days.
• Gate[Core]: This spell is painfully powerful, but not as useful as usually presented due to the XP cost it carries. As a transportation spell, on the other hand, it is really, really bad. It can be replicated by two lower level spells.
• Mindrape[Book of Vile Darkness]: This spell is just... You want a pawn? A mate? A sleeper agent? You got it! Note that, since it is instantaneous, you just need the subject to not be immune while cast it. So, you want an undead servant? Baleful polymorph it is. And, if your target is immune to polymorph, the spell Trait Removal from Serpent Kingdoms does its job (But it takes an hour to cast, so you'll need to restrain them).

[flappeercraft]

(Incidentally, shapechanging into a Zodar only gets you ONE wish per year. You can resume the form however many times you like, but you still have cast wish as a Zodar within the last year, and thus can't do it again until the time has passed.)

Generally accepted it is possible to get more than that but rather than hijacking the thread for a discussion on that I will post a link to a previous thread on Zodars (which by coincidence you also posted in)

Excuse me for butting in -
Spells for Being Always Prepared:

• Chain Contingency[3.0 Players Handbook, Gouda Warning]: As contingency, but three spells. Yes, it is legit, but barely.

Actually Chain Contingency is also in Tome and Blood, its still 3.0 but more legit than it being from 3.0 PHB.

[Mato]

Except you can cast 9ths. A Heightened silent image cast as a 9th level spell is still a 9th level spell

For all effects dependent on spell level but I don't think requirements meet the definition of an effect.

Just because the spell is treated as 9th doesn't mean the spellcaster has and freely cast 9th level spells. Your argument is called affirming the consequent. For example, say you have a law that says cars can go through intersections with green lights but must stop if it's a red light (base spellcasting ability and level growth). You then introduce a new element, a cop's lights & sirens allows him to go through an intersection (heighten spell). You cannot not measure the light's state at the intersection by a speeding officer with his lights & sirens on and claim the light is green simply because he drove through it.

---

We can create a demonstration on this using the rules too. Open the Dungeon Master's Guide and on page six it explains how to adjudicate the rules. The first suggested course of action reappears in the FAQ and Sage entries and can be considered the approach that Wizards of the Coast wants you to take to determine a more official answer than houserules.

Often a situation will arise that isn’t explicitly covered by the rules. In such a situation, you need to provide guidance as to how it should be resolved. When you come upon a situation that the rules don’t seem to cover, consider the following courses of action.
• Look to any similar situation that is covered in a rulebook. Try to extrapolate from what you see presented there and apply it to the current circumstance.

Really this is just WotC saying that a player cannot use an illogical overwhelming exception to claim their case is unique and not subject to the various the various rules and examples that D&D has already established. I bring this up to force you to operate on WotC/D&Ds terms, not your own, and so moving forward I can only hope you remain on subject.

Now let's present a case.

Player 1 asserts that, since spell-like abilities function like spells in other other contexts that were unlisted in the original entry, a genie's planar shift spell-like ability gives it the ability to cast 8th level spells.

His statement is met with Player 2's chronological snobbery who uses an appeal to ridicule to denounce the point as he pushes his own bias on the table. "Spell-like abilities meeting spellcasting requirements? You are wrong. That sounds stupid and you should feel bad!"

Player 1, now entranced in his beliefs believes he was unfairly ridiculed.
"Has Player 2 not read the rules before?"
Because he knows of this.

Spell-Like Abilities: A dryad’s charm person effect and the greater teleport ability of many devils are spell-like abilities Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.
A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component. A spelllike ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

And according to how Player 1 sees it, the genie's is casting an 8th level spell. It doesn't matter that the genie ignores arcane spell failure like a cleric or ignores verbal components like a silent spell, the only thing that matters is the genie can produce something that functions just like a known 8th level spell.

Returning to the argument. What Player 1 says on the forum doesn't matter, in his mind he is making a courtier's reply. The belief that Player 2 has no idea what they are talking about and he will dismiss everything Player 2 says for one reason or another. The two players continue to disagree and Player 1 (or Player 2) may even attempt to crowd source support to unqualified individuals under the belief things like "upvotes" are some kind of objective proof. This is basically how every thread in GitP functions btw.

Now this case is easily solved if either party have more knowledge on the subject or sought actual expert opinions on the matter. If you open Complete Arcane on page 72 you'll learn about how a rule's expansion clarified that a spell-like ability can meet specific spell requirements but it cannot be used to meet requirements based on spellcasting abilities. This is an in stone and inarguable point that solves the case, but the fundamental concept remains the same.

Player 1 thought that if by some means he could produce something then it would retroactively grant everything before it. In the purposed case, he found a genie which can produce an 8th level plane shift spell that, in what he thought, counted in all ways as a spell. And so he falsely attributed the idea that the genie also has a spellcasting ability and the ability to cast 8th level spells. This is also why Pippin used scrolls for an example, it mimics the same series of fallacies and being able to cast plane shift using a scroll does not affirm the consequent to prove that the character has retroactively obtained spellcasting abilities.

---

Now hypothetically Player 1 wants to use Sanctum Spell. He has an example of a spellcaster heightening a 1st level spell and he is claiming it counts as the ability to cast 2nd level spells. To him It doesn't matter the spellcaster can't cast 2nd level spells or that his spellcaster has chosen to cast a 1st level spell because a "heightened magic missile" isn't in actual spell that can be learned, the only thing matters is that in a very few cases that he is to calculate it's level as a '2'.

According to the Dungeon Master's Guide's guidance on how the DM is supposed to adjudicate things. What do you think comes next?

[Segev]

The thing is, it's not, "If a car legally goes through the intersection, the light is green." The rule there is, "If the light is green, a car can legally go through the intersection."

A police car adds exceptions to both parts of that rule when his lights are flashing and his siren is blaring.

In the cases being discussed, the rule is that you must be able to cast N level spells to do Y. Nothing in the rules specifies the exceptions analogous to those present when a police car is invoking his superior right-of-way.

The rules say nothing in the prequisites about HOW you cast those 9th level spells, nor about "under normal circumstances," nor anything else. They don't say, "You must have sufficient levels in a class that grants spellcasting to have access to N level spells according to the table associated with the class," or anything like that. They only are predicated on ability to cast Nth level spells.

[Mato]

The rules say nothing in the prequisites about HOW you cast those 9th level spell.

Actually it does. And arguing the rules don't say something is an argument from silence, which is another example of affirming the consequent by the way. In example, not looking at the light doesn't prove it was green either. This is also why the Dungeon Master's Guide says everything must be translated into the game's rules, a fighter or 5th level wizard for example cannot cast a 9th spell because the rules have not given them the ability to.

Also Complete Arcane's entry did not create a specific disallowance that creatures that use spell-like abilities or invocations cannot meet spellcasting requirements. It actually creates a concept that says higher level spells require principles impossible for low-level characters to learn and provides an explanation that their experience needs to grow. Then using that concept, based on it and as such, that the given reason is why a specific something is not allowed.

The rules FAQ released under game rules also contains an entry that says this.

Can you use sanctum to pick a higher level spell than normal with the Extra Spell feat?
No, you would need to use your class’s spellcasting progression when picking the new spell learned via the Extra Spell feat, not including the benefit of the sanctum spell or similar effects.

WotC provided an official document with the express purpose of clearing up ambiguous concepts that I feel quite solidly and specifically answers the question on how sanctum spell and requirements are to interact.

The fact that you choose not to make usage of the tools given to you is not an illogical fallacy but a psychological trait you should reflect on. However it would be a red herring if you tried to make an appeal that only your cherry picked sources are allowed to weigh in even if you offer very little in the way of excuses and it pushes the debate into a strawman argument on what, or what is not, allowed.

[Segev]

Actually it does. And arguing the rules don't say something is an argument from silence, which is another example of affirming the consequent by the way. In example, not looking at the light doesn't prove it was green either. This is also why the Dungeon Master's Guide says everything must be translated into the game's rules, a fighter or 5th level wizard for example cannot cast a 9th spell because the rules have not given them the ability to.

Also Complete Arcane's entry did not create a specific disallowance that creatures that use spell-like abilities or invocations cannot meet spellcasting requirements. It actually creates a concept that says higher level spells require principles impossible for low-level characters to learn and provides an explanation that their experience needs to grow. Then using that concept, based on it and as such, that the given reason is why a specific something is not allowed.

The rules FAQ released under game rules also contains an entry that says this.

WotC provided an official document with the express purpose of clearing up ambiguous concepts that I feel quite solidly and specifically answers the question on how sanctum spell and requirements are to interact.

The fact that you choose not to make usage of the tools given to you is not an illogical fallacy but a psychological trait you should reflect on. However it would be a red herring if you tried to make an appeal that only your cherry picked sources are allowed to weigh in even if you offer very little in the way of excuses and it pushes the debate into a strawman argument on what, or what is not, allowed.

No, sorry, "Argument from silence" isn't "affirming the consequent." I'm not fishing for some obscure "it doesn't say you can't!" excuse, here. I'm pointing out that the prerequisite is what it says it is, nothing more and nothing less.

The check is for spell level. It's perfectly reasonable for a DM to disallow something that meets the check for any reason he wants, but it is pure judgment call and subjective to decide whether he's MORE or LESS reasonable for a particular ruling.

If a ride says, "You must be this tall to ride," it doesn't matter if you're a particularly tall 3-year-old, you can still ride it, no matter if some people think you're too young. If you're a midgit who is shorter than that height, you can't ride it, no matter whether you're "old enough." You can make an argument that the tricks being discussed here are like wearing platform shoes to try to cheat it, but at that point you're digging past the requirements presented.

I mean, let's put it this way: all these prerequisites? They're meant to establish minimum levels in various kinds of classes you must have invested before you get in. Thus, one could argue that using Sorcerer levels to get into Sublime Chord is actually just as much cheating as using any of these other stunts to get higher level spell slot access than normal.

But the requirements are the requirements. Any argument about "affirming the consequent" is attempting special pleading to RAI.


It's an algorithm. It does what it says it does. It's not perfect, and has bugs, and has points where it isn't clear what it's saying. This isn't one of the latter points, though you could certainly argue it's the former (i.e. that it has bugs). But pretending that it's somehow breaking the rules and applying bad logic to read the RAW as what they say is not useful, helpful, nor logical. And certainly won't be persuasive.

[ezekielraiden]

This reminds me of when my father would, through grit and persistence, take half of a carton of ice cream in a single scoop. Then, when people got mad at him for taking too much after he was asked not to take so much ice cream, he said, "But I only took one scoop!"

There is such a thing as flagrantly violating the general meaning or sense of a thing. My dad was not doing a justified thing. Same with this sort of stuff.

As a pretty simple heuristic: if your trick would be defeated simply by having the requirement phrased subtly differently (like changing the order of a clause), it is at best dubious, and it is not capricious (what people usually mean by "arbitrary" or "subjective") for the person whose job is in part to arbitrate, to tell you "nope, sorry."

[StevenC21]

Uh oh. You aren't supposed to say that.

Last guy who said that got assassinated by minmaxing wizardphiles from Oerth.

Better watch out.

[Segev]

As a pretty simple heuristic: if your trick would be defeated simply by having the requirement phrased subtly differently (like changing the order of a clause), it is at best dubious, and it is not capricious (what people usually mean by "arbitrary" or "subjective") for the person whose job is in part to arbitrate, to tell you "nope, sorry."

You’ve failed to show how adding what it would take to specify that you must get the spell slots from native progression of a class is “trivial” and merely “reordering a clause.”

Is qualifying with Ur Priest acceptable, or should you know that any class that progresses that fast in spellcasting must also be against the spirit?

I’m not going to say a DM is unreasonable for denying a “trick.” I am going to say that such things are not somehow less valid than those you, personally, think must be what was intended. The trouble here lies in your assumption of the mantle of being everyone’s DM by asserting how they obviously would it should rule, irrespective of what the rules say, based on your assertion of what was really meant.

Such discussions are valuable, but claiming a mantle of moral or intellectual superiority because you’ve chosen a particular interpretation is not.