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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Thoughts on the Warlock

    So, I'm sure if people know me, you'll likely know that I am not a fan of Warlocks. In the past I have called them a poor class after having seen them on paper, despite having never played one. Well, part of that has finally changed. I played a single classed Warlock. Not to 20th level mind you, but to level 12. As such, I feel that I can finally come back and give a proper look at the warlock, and what I feel its weaknesses are, and how they could be shored up.

    Do note, the DM did not hand out short rests like cookies. You could not do something like wake up, cast Hex, and then short rest immediately afterward before we actually did any sort of adventuring. Nor could you short rest after every fight. The DM felt that made things unbalanced towards the Short Rest classes...and I fully agree with him.

    Spoiler: The Good
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    They have such an amazing flavor, I absolutely adore it. The RP potential is huge, and fun. The fact that my spells scaled in level was really nice too, making even my "low" level spells count well past the point I thought they would. I personally went Hexblade, which was really fun, especially since my DM was a bit stingy on magic items. I ended up being one of the few players who consistently had a magical weapon, and Eldritch Blast made for a fine cantrip that ended up having a decent amount of utility.

    The Invocations were fun too, in particular Mask of Any Faces and Eyes of the Rune Keeper were particularly useful and fun. Improved Pact Weapon, Agonizing Blast, and Repelling Blast helped keep me useful in combat too, even when I only had my cantrips available. Also, the Hexblade's abilities meshed really well with Pact of the Blade, and the Hexblade's Curse was especially nice. The Specter was useful, but its use eventually began to lessen the higher level we got. But that was to be expected. And finally, while I didn't get to play with it much, Armor of Hexes was also useful


    Spoiler: The Bad
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    Despite all of that fun stuff, I found the Warlock lacked one very important thing...Resources. I don't mean resources per adventuring day either. I mean resources in general. I found I never had enough spell slots per encounter, never had enough cantrips, never had enough invocations, and I never had enough spells that scaled well or worked well with the Warlock mechanics. Don't get me wrong, there were some fine gems in the Invocation department...too many in fact. I didn't have enough Invocations to really make something extraordinary, outside of Mask of Many Faces and Eyes of the Rune Keeper. Not to mention many of the invocations only come back on a long rest...which kind of ruins the point of playing a class that only uses short rests.

    Hell, I had to rely solely on Booming Blade and Eldritch Blast once I reached level 5, since I didn't have enough Invocations to gain an Extra Attack without giving up one of my more useful Invocations. I wasn't really able to patch much with normal spells either, since the warlock has very few spells that scale well with his increased spell level slots. And because I only had a max of two spell slots per encounter for the majority of my play time, and only one spell I could concentrate on, I couldn't really afford to waste a slot on something that might not work. Generally I found I'd get to cast one potentially useful spell, and if it failed I'd be stuck with Hex for the rest of the time so that I'd have something useful at the very least.

    To make it worse, there are very few spells that the warlock gets that can make use of their higher spell slots. Spells like Hex and Armor of Agathys are great, they scale nicely with the warlock and can be used for more then one encounter...but most spells don't do that. Either they're a one time use, they last one minute and have a chance to be wasted if the target makes the save, or they require concentration. Their spell choice and design does not work well with the warlock at all. The Warlock would have been far better if they had more access to spells that last multiple encounters a day and do not require concentration, like Aid, Armor of Agathys, ect.


    Spoiler: Conclusion
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    The warlock was somewhat fun to play. It was nice to step out of my comfort zone and play a single classed character for once, and nice to play the warolck. I loved their pact flavor, and was able to customize my pact in a way that allowed the DM to make use of it. It made for a fun, quirky character who could do some entertaining things. However, my previous thoughts on the warlock stand. Warlocks lack the encounter-to-encounter resources needed to be a super fun and great class. Their lack of spell slots per encounter, the limited number of invocations you gain, the low number of cantrips, and the low number of spells that really work well with the Warlock's gimmick hamstring the class as a whole.

    That's not to say it isn't fun. It is a ton of fun...however I found that the roles I filled could have been filled far better with just about any other class. The only role I really excelled at was being able to read everything, and having a really great cantrip. Outside of that, I never had the resources to do much else.


    Spoiler: Some potential fixes
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    After having played the Warlock, I came up with a few ways that would make the Warlock be a bit more fun to play:

    1) Give them one extra spell slot at 5th level. They can start out with one spell slot at level 1, have 2 slots at levels 2 through 4, then at level 5 they gain a 3rd spell slot. This alone would make it FAR better to play the Warlock, and gives players far more options during any encounter, instead of casting one spell and saving the second for Hex. Hell, Adventure's League doesn't mind giving Warlocks an extra spell slot at level 5, since Rod of the Pact Keeper is on the Evergreen Item List. For those who don't know, you now "purchase" magic items, and items on the Evergreen list are always available. The earliest you can gain a Rod of the Pact Keeper is right at the cusp of level 5, and it just so happens to be the only item that allows a caster to instantly regain one spell slot. It also gives a bonus to spell attack and spell DC...something very few items do. I find it indicative of the designers realizing they had made a mistake by limiting the Warlocks slots per encounter, and they tried to fix it with an item that boosts the number of slots a warlock can get, as well as the effectiveness of their spells.


    2) Make it so Hex does not require Concentration. Making Hex non-concentration frees up so many things, you wouldn't believe it. It really does become one of those spells where you cast it at the start of the day, and just leave it running. It isn't OP by any means either. Hex only scales with how long it lasts, as it should. The damage and disadvantage to ability checks doesn't change. With it, you can do some actual fun things, rather then casting one concentration spell in an encounter, then getting to choose between Hex, a spell that's guaranteed to work and be useful, or some other concentration spell when the spell you're currently using ends. You actually get a choice for these things!!


    3) Make more warlock specific spells that scale better. I cannot properly express how many Warlock spells either do not scale, or scale so poorly that there's no point in taking them. For example, Armor of Agathys, starts out cent, with the 5 temp hp and 5 cold damage. And you know what, the second level scales nicely too. 10 temp hp for an hour as a non-concentration is nice...but it quickly falls off. Then there's Arms of Hadar, 2d6 necrotic in a 10ft radius around yourself. The rider is pretty decent, denying anyone who fails the save a reaction...but the damage only scales by 1d6 to a max of 6d6 at 5th level.

    And you know what, I'd be ok with those spells scaling poorly were it not for the higher level spells. They're first level spells after all, I don't expect them to be amazing. But then you see Hunger of Hadar. This is the only Warlock exclusive 3rd level spell in the PHB and Xanathar's! Obviously this should be great, right? It's a 3rd level spell, that's when you get stuff like Fireball and Lightningbolt...but no. It creates magical darkness in a 20ft radius, difficult terrain, and deals 2d6 cold damage and possibly 2d6 acid damage. The acid damage is avoidable though, since if you make the dex save you take no damage. Now, I will admit the darkness and difficult terrain are nice...but the spell does not scale at all. The damage never increases, the duration never increases. You are better off ignoring the ONLY WARLOCK EXCLUSIVE 3rd level spell for something like Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Fly, or whatever your pact gives you.


    4) Give them one extra pact specific boon at level 3. This actually frees up a fair bit, as they gain their pact boon and gain something fun to go with the boon, while still getting to have enough room for a combat Invocation and RP invocation.



    Finally, with all that said, a small word about short rests, cause I know this will come up. It always does when Warlocks come up. The DM did not allow us to Short Rest whenever we wanted, and for good reason. I was not the only short rest class in the party. We had a Moon Druid/Barbarian and a Champion Fighter. Now, I often see people say that Warlocks should "just cast a spell like Hex at the start of the day, then take a short rest before the adventuring starts as part of their morning routine". I find this is a poor fix, as you're essentially saying the Warlock needs two extra spell slots every day without actually giving the warlock two spells they can use.

    Not only that, but what of other, stronger Short Rest classes. I ask you this: Do you feel a Moon Druid should be able to use both of their Wild Shapes to turn into an Elemental and immediately regain all of their Wild Shape uses back before an adventure even starts? At level 1 they can just become a giant bear that sticks with the party. they won't be as effective at RPing, but I doubt they'll mind. At level 10, they can burn both Wild Shapes to be an Elemental. They aren't exactly hindered by this either in an RP sense like they are with the bear. Elementals can speak, which means a Moon Druid can use the languages they know to speak while Wild Shaped.
    Last edited by sithlordnergal; 2019-02-20 at 03:18 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    I feel your pain about short resting.

    But agonizing and repelling blast are incredible... then again it makes you feel very blah after awhile.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    I think the Warlock plays fine at tier 1, however it loses steam fast.

    Your usual level 10 spellcaster will have 15 spell slots. A Warlock is stuck with 2. In any "boss battle" scenario the Warlock will dramatically underperform compared to long rest spellcasters who conserved their resources.

    In most groups I've played "boss battles" are the longest, most exciting and most dangerous fights in the game. Having your Warlock being near useless in those scenarios is awful.
    Last edited by Merudo; 2019-02-20 at 04:55 AM.

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    Nobody in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    I agree with your points, and that's why I think Tome is the superior option at level 3 since it opens up SO many new things you can do via rituals.

    The last few levels before you get your 3rd spell slot are particularly agonizing to play through.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Merudo View Post
    Your usual level 10 spellcaster will have 15 spell slots. A Warlock is stuck with 2.
    Here we go with this disingenuous bulldust again.

    2 slots per short rest (both 5th level) = 6 x 5th level slots per long rest (on average; somedays more and somedays less, but that is the expected median average).

    As opposed to the Wizards 3 x 5th level slots per long rest, 3 x 4ths, and a bunch of 1sts and 2nds that dont really do much at this level.

    I note you picked 10th level (1 level before the Warlock gets 3/ slots per short rest (and a 6th level incarnum).

    I have a sneaking suspicion this wasnt by coincidence you picked this level.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    Of course Warlocks are going to be bad if you insist on casting low level spells in your high level spell slots.

    The whole thing is that they get more upfront power in a combat, which is awesome.

    They get an average of 1 high level spell per encounter. That's one encounter shaping spell per combat. For example, at level 5 they can cast Hunger of Hadar at the start of just about every combat if they want to. And then for the next 2 rounds use their cantrips.

    It's fine.

    Giving them another spell slot would be extremely overpowered.
    If you are trying to abuse the game; Don't. And you're probably wrong anyway.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    The Warlock is like the Fighter, but with stuff like Action Surge replaced with Pact Magic.

    The problem is it doesn't present itself like that.

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    Beholder

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    I think where people misunderstand Warlocks is when they judge them on spell slots.

    To be an effective Warlock, the character should be based around their Invocations, Pact and cantrips. Such as the classic Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast Warlock: they play like a ranged fighter with built in knockback. Or an infiltrator-type illusionist who uses Silent Image, Minor Illusion and Disguise Self to great effect.

    Once you have that base set, the spell slots are bonus ways to make the character more effective. A fiend blaster Warlock who can AoE with Fireball in addition to doing great single-target damage; a Pact of the Blade Warlock who can get into melee with AoA enhancing their staying power as well as their offense.

    If you’re only looking at a Warlocks spell slots, you’re not going to appreciate the Warlock.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    DM limits short rests believing it makes things unbalanced towards short rest classes and you fully agree with him. Yet, you find that your short rest class doesn't have enough resources. And you conclude that warlocks are below average and need more resources.

    Lets go full circle here and say right from the start that creating additional rules that limit short resting makes the game unbalanced against short rest classes.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    Warlocks are fine and sone are very good.

    Hexblade for example are very good and boss fights are what they are made for.

    Let's go to your sub optimal 10th level.

    Boss fight and I throw out the Hexblade Curse. Not only am I doing extra damage and crits, I can now role a d6 and on a 4+ the boss misses me.

    I get to cast two more spells at max spell level. That is some good stuff.

    The reason why people don't have a good feel for the Warlock is that they are drawn like spell caster but don't have the output.

    So you have to finesse the class and some people just don't know how to do it.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunru View Post
    The Warlock is like the Fighter, but with stuff like Action Surge replaced with Pact Magic.

    The problem is it doesn't present itself like that.
    I would agree with you if it weren't for feats.

    Fighters mostly rely on feats such as Polearm Mastery, Sentinel, Great Weapon Master, Crossbow Expert and Sharp Shooter to remain competitive compared to other casters. These options are not available to the Warlock, except maybe for the Hexblade.

    This makes Warlocks significantly less powerful than the average Fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by MThurston View Post
    Warlocks are fine and sone are very good.
    Hexblade for example are very good and boss fights are what they are made for.
    The Hexblade is certainly decent. And, as you mentioned the Curse helps offset the relative weakness of the Hexblade against BBEGs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    Such as the classic Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast Warlock: they play like a ranged fighter with built in knockback.
    This strategy can work very well to kite a melee enemy - as long as said enemy can be engaged from far away. Unfortunately, most battle grids I've seen are not nearly big enough to fully take advantage of this.
    Last edited by Merudo; 2019-02-20 at 08:38 AM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    I ran a 12th level Warlock lately after having run both a Sorceror and Cleric from 1-12.

    Warlock is fine.
    People over focus on the spell slots. It’s a minor part of the class.
    Your real strength is the combination of invocations, pact, and cantrips.

    I was running a Celestial Tomelock, so I has healing dice, extra cantrips, and a ton of rituals.
    My spell choices were more focused on utility or encounter length spells, so that I could get the most bang for my buck. Almost all my choices were 3-5th level because why not?
    Had soul cage as my arcanum to give me a nice long buff after we took down our first foe.

    But yeah, I did not feel any less powerful than the others.
    It’s just a gestalt class, that like the Sorceror can be messed up with poor choices.

    I wish some of the invocations that used a spell slot, instead let you cast those spells once a day without using a spell slot. If so, they would be much more attractive options.
    Kinda like Tricksters escape.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    My issue with the Warlock is this:

    For the large majority of your adventuring career, you have two slots. Two. That's not enough. It feels like such a waste when you cast a 1st level spell at 4th or 5th level.

    My fix: Short Rest Spell Points

    Take the Spell Point system from the DMG, convert the Warlocks spell slot levels into points. These refresh on a short or long rest. It allows you to cast low level spells without wasting high level slots, and lets you maintain the feel of the Warlock being a short rest caster. "What about invocations that require you to spend a spell slot?" It costs the same amount as it normally costs. Polymorph costs 7 points, as it normally would for a 4th level spell, for example.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by sithlordnergal View Post
    I ask you this: Do you feel a Moon Druid should be able to use both of their Wild Shapes to turn into an Elemental and immediately regain all of their Wild Shape uses back before an adventure even starts? At level 1 they can just become a giant bear that sticks with the party. they won't be as effective at RPing, but I doubt they'll mind. At level 10, they can burn both Wild Shapes to be an Elemental. They aren't exactly hindered by this either in an RP sense like they are with the bear. Elementals can speak, which means a Moon Druid can use the languages they know to speak while Wild Shaped.
    Yes, if it makes narrative sense that the party can sit down for an hour before they head out to complete whatever task they need to.

    Every single argument on this forum about the availability of short rests to a party, comes down to the same thing... the DM's grasp of narrative flow and the consequences of player decisions.

    If a party says, "we would like to take a short rest" I would NEVER say... "No, you can't" that's taking away my player's agency.

    Instead i would say... "sure, you sit down and break out the tea, and prepare to spend an hour resting..."... whilst simultaneously deciding what, if any, the consequences are for the party taking this decision....


    TLDR... It's not up to the DM to give permission for short rests (or long rests for that matter)... it's up to the DM to decide what happens when a group decided to try it.

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    Yunru's Avatar

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    Hell, the party don't "take" rests anyway. They gain the benefit any time they've taken the corresponding time doing the corresponding thing.
    Especially relevant if they're travelling as a passenger in a vehicle.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    My issue with the Warlock is this:

    For the large majority of your adventuring career, you have two slots. Two. That's not enough. It feels like such a waste when you cast a 1st level spell at 4th or 5th level.

    My fix: Short Rest Spell Points

    Take the Spell Point system from the DMG, convert the Warlocks spell slot levels into points. These refresh on a short or long rest. It allows you to cast low level spells without wasting high level slots, and lets you maintain the feel of the Warlock being a short rest caster. "What about invocations that require you to spend a spell slot?" It costs the same amount as it normally costs. Polymorph costs 7 points, as it normally would for a 4th level spell, for example.
    Short rest is an hour. You can do that at any time unless the princess is in the next room about to be eaten.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by MThurston View Post
    Short rest is an hour. You can do that at any time unless the princess is in the next room about to be eaten.
    You think you have an hour in a dungeon? When you're storming an enemy stronghold? There's a thing called 'patrols' that enemies have.

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    You think you have an hour in a dungeon? When you're storming an enemy stronghold? There's a thing called 'patrols' that enemies have.
    If it's a mega-dungeon, you probably have plenty of time for all sorts of rests throughout the day.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    The Warlock isn't the only short rest dependant class, but it's probably the most noticeable one-- they get fewer but more powerful resources than the Battle Master or Monk, so they both run out faster and feel it more when they do.

    Spell Points is a good quick fix. Another rebuild possiblity would be to double down on the "mostly an archer" bit-- give them a Paladin's spell progression, but fold Eldritch Blast stuff into the base class and hand out a few more invocations.
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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    I wouldn't mind having the option to regain one spell slot at the cost of one level of exhaustion.

    I like the imagery of pushing yourself beyond your abilities, and although the cost is harsh it might help get you out of a bind when you really just need that one particular spell to save your ass in a certain situation.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    You think you have an hour in a dungeon? When you're storming an enemy stronghold? There's a thing called 'patrols' that enemies have.
    If combat lasts 4 rounds, thats 24 seconds of time. You take 1-2 rounds to search as an action wasting another 12 precious seconds. We don't add any time for planning, because time is "frozen" while the players are discussing strategy. So just add another round of two of walking and you managed to storm the castle/defeat the dungeon in the blistering speed of 2-3 minutes tops.

    And then you exit the dungeon and the DM says 12 hours have passed. Yeah, there are clearly no time for a short rest.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    I think your warlock experience is strongly influenced by your choices.

    For example, I have a level 7 variant human hexblade warlock who took polearm master to start and great weapon master at level 4. These choices are tied to the characters backstory and previous experiences. His two spell slots are used to supplement the melee attack capability. The invocations are Thirsting Blade, Improved Pact Weapon, Devil's Sight and I think most recently Agonizing Blast. If the character has advantage on attacks either due to the actions of other party members or through the use of darkness+devils sight or shadow of moil then it can be an extremely effective melee damage character.

    In your case, you chose pact of the blade but then used booming blade to add a bit of extra damage plus some additional damage if the target chooses to move. If you are at melee range then most targets won't move anyway. You chose not to use thirsting blade which allows for a second weapon attack adding your attack stat to damage (likely +5 by 12th level). You would also have the Lifedrinker invocation by 12th level which further increases your attack damage and which scales based on your number of attacks.

    With this type of hexblade/bladelock, the spell slots are used to support and augment their capability to deliver either melee or ranged damage (it works just as well with crossbow expert+sharpshooter). This character is pretty much as capable as any other melee character with the added flexibility of some higher level spells and invocations to support their play style.

    The caster version of the warlock would likely go with pact of the tome or chain and rely on eldritch blast plus all of its related invocations to manipulate the location of opponents on the battlefield. Using repelling blast to push away enemies from your casters can allow them to attack and move without having to disengage. The focus is again mostly on damage and using the spell slots to augment their damage or for specific utility. Invocations can add a lot of both role play and general utility options through Mask of Many Faces, Eyes of the Rune Keeper and other choices you noted.

    However, here is the problem with your suggestions ...

    - if you added a hex that did not require concentration then every warlock would use it. Every sorcerer/warlock would use it. If the build was even remotely optimized then it would dominate damage over most other classes at a comparable level. The caster warlock would do 2d10+2d6+2xStat at 5th level from eldritch blast. The PAM hexblade would do 3d10+3d6+3x Stat. In addition, to whatever they use their spell slot for like darkness+devils sight or shadow of moil or greater invisibility (fey warlock).

    Of course, your booming blade build would just do d8(or weapon damage) + d8 + d6 so the option doesn't seem so bad. However, if you are concerned about lackluster performance in combat then you need to look to your roleplay choices first before considering balance suggestions.

    - a similar problem is related to adding a spell slot at 5th level. I think this would be a valid choice in a game that reduces the proportion of short rests. In a game that has a couple of encounters/day but no short rests ... an extra spell slot would help since the warlock has to be prepared to spread their spell slots out over two to three encounters giving them one spell slot to expend in any given encounter. However, most of the need for additional spell slots comes from trying to play a warlock in a traditional caster role. Warlocks can't cast many spells. They need to conserve them. Any other caster class has lots of spells and lots of choices.

    Even having 6 x 5th level spells slots for a day for a warlock (under ideal short rest circumstances) compared to a 10th level caster with 2x 5th, 3x4th, 3x3rd, 3x2nd, 4x1st. The regular caster has far more variety AND the lower level slots are far from useless. (Suggestion/Blindness/Phantasmal Force are great 2nd level single target control spells that ALWAYS remain relevant since your DC always goes up ... as do saves but the spells still work). The warlock will always be squeezed for spells but that is the point of the class - they are not full spellcasters like the rest, they use pact magic, cantrips and invocations to provide their magical abilities.

    So if you want to play a warlock more like a regular spell caster or you play in a game with fewer short rests then increasing the warlock spell slots would make sense but it is a fix to a playstyle and DM game choice and not a fix to the class itself.

    - Finally, I agree that it would be nice to have more flavourful warlock only spells that scaled appropriately with spell slot level. It would certainly make them more attractive.

    - I'd also agree with another poster that the invocations allowing access to casting a spell once/long rest using a warlock spell slot would be better off if they did not require a spell slot .. spending an invocation to add a spell to the warlock spell list for once/day casting is just not worthwhile compared to the other invocations. I think they should have been labeled as Minor Arcanums for access to a specific spell once/day.

    The bottom line, in my opinion, is that the warlock class is hugely full of roleplay potential and flavour AND is balanced with other classes and doesn't need fixes to be both fun and effective. However, unlike some 5e classes, warlocks can be more negatively impacted by specific build choices made for roleplay reasons.

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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Here we go with this disingenuous bulldust again.

    2 slots per short rest (both 5th level) = 6 x 5th level slots per long rest (on average; somedays more and somedays less, but that is the expected median average).

    As opposed to the Wizards 3 x 5th level slots per long rest, 3 x 4ths, and a bunch of 1sts and 2nds that dont really do much at this level.

    I note you picked 10th level (1 level before the Warlock gets 3/ slots per short rest (and a 6th level incarnum).

    I have a sneaking suspicion this wasnt by coincidence you picked this level.
    Malifice, it isn't disingenuous. It is an issue of perception.
    As was argued extensively in the last Warlock diatribe,
    • 2 short rests per long rest is not the average. "Average" varies by table, that should be taken into account.
    • during a boss battle, the 8th wizard has 2x 4th level slots, 3x 3th.... the 8th warlock has 2x 4th level slots. that can and should affect people's playstyle
    • at 11th level, warlock gets 3x 5th per short rest and 1x 6th (fing wow!!!) now the wizard has trouble keeping up. how common is tier 3 play?


    *edited*
    I consider it more disingenuous to ignore the poster's argument.
    I have a sneaking suspicion that you not addressing boss battles wasn't a coincidence.
    Last edited by NaughtyTiger; 2019-02-20 at 11:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    You think you have an hour in a dungeon? When you're storming an enemy stronghold? There's a thing called 'patrols' that enemies have.
    Are you complaining that short rests take too long?
    Last edited by MThurston; 2019-02-20 at 11:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Merudo View Post
    I think the Warlock plays fine at tier 1, however it loses steam fast.

    Your usual level 10 spellcaster will have 15 spell slots. A Warlock is stuck with 2. In any "boss battle" scenario the Warlock will dramatically underperform compared to long rest spellcasters who conserved their resources.

    In most groups I've played "boss battles" are the longest, most exciting and most dangerous fights in the game. Having your Warlock being near useless in those scenarios is awful.
    Consider talking to your DM about looking into the Adrenaline Surge link in my Signature.

    It effectively allows Short Rests in the middle of boss fights at the cost of Exhaustion. It makes Warlocks and Fighters especially good at slaying giant monsters and outlasting them rather than falling flat. It also makes boss fights really epic.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas I’ve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. You’re a gem of the community here.

    5th Edition Homebrewery
    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    2 short rests per long rest is not the average. "Average" varies by table, that should be taken into account.
    Ummm... That's not how an average works.

    Besides, 2 short rests per long rest is the assumed average that everything is based around (as is three round combat, but I digress).

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    I'm kind of the opposite. I think they are mechanically fine but I find the fluff icky so I dont play them.
    I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunru View Post
    Ummm... That's not how an average works.

    Besides, 2 short rests per long rest is the assumed average that everything is based around (as is three round combat, but I digress).
    please explain to me how average works...

    if your table runs 6 short rests per long rest, how does that affect my table?
    does that make my warlock stronger even if my table does 1 short per long?
    Last edited by NaughtyTiger; 2019-02-20 at 11:50 AM.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by MThurston View Post
    Are you complaining that short rests take too long?
    No, I'm saying that taking a short rest isn't as easy to come by as you seem to believe. There's plenty of scenarios where taking a short rest isn't a wise or viable options.

    Don't put words in my mouth.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the Warlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunru View Post
    Ummm... That's not how an average works.

    Besides, 2 short rests per long rest is the assumed average that everything is based around (as is three round combat, but I digress).
    I've done a lot of research on the topic recently, done a lot of number crunching between different classes.

    It seems like the balance between classes requires 10 combat rounds per day, divided by 2 Short Rests. The higher the level, the more combat rounds you should expect throughout the day; I'd estimate it should be something like: 7 + Level/2.

    Spoiler: A few notes
    Show
    Using 5th level characters:

    Warlocks broke even with Wizards with about 8 combat rounds and 2 Short Rests. Fewer Short Rests will result in the Warlock falling far behind the Wizard, and the Warlock becomes better after a third Short Rest.

    Fighters are inferior to Paladins at less than about 8 combat rounds and 2 Short Rests. If the Fighter is using a low damage weapon (such as going Sword+Board), the Fighter is even further behind and will require a 3rd Short Rest to break even with the Paladin.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-02-20 at 11:55 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas I’ve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. You’re a gem of the community here.

    5th Edition Homebrewery
    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

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