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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Sharpshooter vs GWM

    Quote Originally Posted by mephnick View Post
    Sorry, I forgot to mention I remove the cover part of SS. Ignoring 3/4's cover should never happen. It removes all the tactical issues, and only real drawbacks, with Archery. It's too much.
    I'm all on board with this option!
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  2. - Top - End - #32

    Default Re: Sharpshooter vs GWM

    Quote Originally Posted by mephnick View Post
    Sorry, I forgot to mention I remove the cover part of SS. Ignoring 3/4's cover should never happen. It removes all the tactical issues, and only real drawbacks, with Archery. It's too much.
    IME 3/4 cover is much less of a factor with archery than total cover or prone enemies. Ignoring 3/4 cover lets you snipe hobgoblin archers through arrow slits, yes, and that's great, but it won't let you shoot through interior walls and it won't remove the disadvantage for shooting at a hobgoblin shooting back at you from a prone position.

    (As an aside: should all weapons suffer penalties from firing in prone positions, or just bows? IRL rifles are easier to aim in the prone position, not harder, and I can imagine crossbows being that way too. Might be worth a houserule at some point.)

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Sharpshooter vs GWM

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    (As an aside: should all weapons suffer penalties from firing in prone positions, or just bows? IRL rifles are easier to aim in the prone position, not harder, and I can imagine crossbows being that way too. Might be worth a houserule at some point.)
    I can imagine crossbows being relatively difficult to reload while prone/sitting. Kneeling clearly works, as Pavises were a thing. Slings... well, the less we think about it the better, I suppose.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Sharpshooter vs GWM

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    IME 3/4 cover is much less of a factor with archery than total cover or prone enemies. Ignoring 3/4 cover lets you snipe hobgoblin archers through arrow slits, yes, and that's great, but it won't let you shoot through interior walls and it won't remove the disadvantage for shooting at a hobgoblin shooting back at you from a prone position.

    (As an aside: should all weapons suffer penalties from firing in prone positions, or just bows? IRL rifles are easier to aim in the prone position, not harder, and I can imagine crossbows being that way too. Might be worth a houserule at some point.)
    I've felt the same way regarding prone. Unfortunately, there's no distinction between intentionally prone or accidentally prone, but I could see someone making it so that melee attacks from a prone creature have disadvantage.

    This does mean that you'll see a lot more ranged creatures stay prone throughout the fight to avoid incoming fire while shooting back, but I don't see a problem with that. There are a lot of mobility options for melee characters, and a not a lot of reason to use those mobility options, so perhaps a Monk engaging on a group of archers while they're prone might be a good play.
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  5. - Top - End - #35

    Default Re: Sharpshooter vs GWM

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    I can imagine crossbows being relatively difficult to reload while prone/sitting. Kneeling clearly works, as Pavises were a thing. Slings... well, the less we think about it the better, I suppose.
    David Weber's books have given me the impression that you reload it by lying your back and cocking it with your feet, before poking your head up out of your ice hole to shoot again at the Temple Guardsmen. Seems reasonable but I don't know if it would work in practice. In any case, that's about reloading instead of aiming.

    Maybe crossbows should have a ROF penalty while prone instead of disadvantage to attack rolls?

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    This does mean that you'll see a lot more ranged creatures stay prone throughout the fight to avoid incoming fire while shooting back, but I don't see a problem with that. There are a lot of mobility options for melee characters, and a not a lot of reason to use those mobility options, so perhaps a Monk engaging on a group of archers while they're prone might be a good play.
    I agree that it leads to good play. Generally I feel like anything that helps justify the existence of melee characters is a good thing. If someone is lying prone to avoid missile fire, presenting a melee threat is one way to punish them for that.

    That said, most of my tool-using bad guys are not disciplined enough to do that kind of thing. Mostly just scro and hobgoblins. (Maybe I should add drow to that list but historically I haven't played drow as disciplined team fighters, rather than chaotic individualists.)
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-02-21 at 02:03 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Sharpshooter vs GWM

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    David Weber's books have given me the impression that you reload it by lying your back and cocking it with your feet, before poking your head up out of your ice hole to shoot again at the Temple Guardsmen. Seems reasonable but I don't know if it would work in practice. In any case, that's about reloading instead of aiming.

    Maybe crossbows should have a ROF penalty while prone instead of disadvantage to attack rolls?


    Heh, you mean, like Loading?

    I guess you could do something like requiring that weapons with Loading must spend a Bonus Action to attack while prone. This also inherently slows down the fire rate of CBE spammers.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Sharpshooter vs GWM

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Heh, you mean, like Loading?

    I guess you could do something like requiring that weapons with Loading must spend a Bonus Action to attack while prone. This also inherently slows down the fire rate of CBE spammers.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    David Weber's books have given me the impression that you reload it by lying your back and cocking it with your feet, before poking your head up out of your ice hole to shoot again at the Temple Guardsmen. Seems reasonable but I don't know if it would work in practice. In any case, that's about reloading instead of aiming.

    Maybe crossbows should have a ROF penalty while prone instead of disadvantage to attack rolls?
    What I've gotten out of my admittedly rather unfocused research into IRL medieval/renaissance arms and armor is that there were a lot of different crossbows across the time and place, and each was probably used fairly differently.

    Reducing ROF to (as an example) one shot/2 rounds, but giving oneself ~ 50% reduced chance of being hit sounds tactically sound, particularly if it reduces the chance of being hit by effects larger than what you are dishing out (if the 1hd NPC crossbowmen halve their own damage output, but also reduce their damage received by half, including opponent spells or other used-up resources).

  8. - Top - End - #38

    Default Re: Sharpshooter vs GWM

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Heh, you mean, like Loading?

    I guess you could do something like requiring that weapons with Loading must spend a Bonus Action to attack while prone. This also inherently slows down the fire rate of CBE spammers.
    I was thinking more like "reloading while prone costs a separate Action." Obviously that's not an issue if you can just stand up, but if someone else has a readied action to shoot anyone that stands up, you might choose to reload while prone just like you sometimes choose to crawl prone instead of standing and walking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    Reducing ROF to (as an example) one shot/2 rounds, but giving oneself ~ 50% reduced chance of being hit sounds tactically sound, particularly if it reduces the chance of being hit by effects larger than what you are dishing out (if the 1hd NPC crossbowmen halve their own damage output, but also reduce their damage received by half, including opponent spells or other used-up resources).
    Yep. It's not that hard to get more than a 50% damage reduction, and besides there are psychological factors to consider (reducing his own chance of death is attractive to a soldier even if it makes him fire more slowly). Weirdly though it doesn't work against long-range fire, because disadvantage doesn't stack. Instead of tweaking the rules to make that additional weirdness go away, maybe it's best to just admit to myself that 5E just isn't a good system for running battles with realistic nonmagical tactics.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-02-21 at 02:47 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Sharpshooter vs GWM

    While I agree with many of the points that have been raised, I think GWM is being sold short, mainly because they are being compared in a vacuum.

    Even accounting that XBE and SS remove two of the most glaring drawbacks of ranged combat, there's still the fact that throughout the rest of the game melee get much more support than ranged.

    You can't do AoO with ranged weapons. PAM/Sentinel will let you do it realiably.

    More class features/spells that work with melee only (Divine Smite, BB, GFB among the most notable ones)

    There's far more magic weapons compatible with GWM than with SS in the DGM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Sharpshooter vs GWM

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Yep. It's not that hard to get more than a 50% damage reduction, and besides there are psychological factors to consider (reducing his own chance of death is attractive to a soldier even if it makes him fire more slowly).
    Huge amounts of gameplay would probably change if the largest influence was the actions of people who never rose above 'potentially killed by one hit' threshold.

    Weirdly though it doesn't work against long-range fire, because disadvantage doesn't stack. Instead of tweaking the rules to make that additional weirdness go away, maybe it's best to just admit to myself that 5E just isn't a good system for running battles with realistic nonmagical tactics.
    At the end of the day, it's not meant to be. The game started with a whole bunch of fighting man vs. fighting man gaming (culled from Chainmail) and each iteration of the game has slowly pared away bits of that.

    At the very least, I'd say there are plenty of TTRPGs (and wargames) which would be better suited for the task.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukelnikov View Post
    While I agree with many of the points that have been raised, I think GWM is being sold short, mainly because they are being compared in a vacuum.

    Even accounting that XBE and SS remove two of the most glaring drawbacks of ranged combat, there's still the fact that throughout the rest of the game melee get much more support than ranged.
    I should step back and acknowledge that you are correct. Melee (Str melee, to be specific) is actually, when applicable, more powerful than ranged. The slight greater synergy that archery fighting style has than GWM notwithstanding, melee is clearly superior. Except of course that you have to get up to your opponent (and survive standing next to them). That's a problem that is baked into the game. The equivalent limitations for ranged are either trivialized with feats, or very DM dependent (ex. we in my groups have always had a limit to how many arrows you can carry, but that's nowhere in the rules). So disproportionate constraints. Also, a ranged character forced into melee (if they don't have XBE) pulls out a rapier and still fights with Dex. A Melee character forced into ranged... either has a decent Dex on top of Str, pulls out a javelin (which has range issues, plus parity problems after level 5 baring houserules), or maybe a combat cantrip obtained through one means or another. None of which make the Str-based melee character as good at ranged as the Dex-based ranged character is at melee.

    I'm not saying that you are in any way wrong. It still seems however, that whatever limitations the designers wanted for ranged combat in 5e were too easy to work around, and it is a good preferred default mode for combat effectiveness, baring specifically wanting to play something which capitalizes on one of those melee features you mention.
    Last edited by Willie the Duck; 2019-02-21 at 03:21 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #41

    Default Re: Sharpshooter vs GWM

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    Also, a ranged character forced into melee (if they don't have XBE) pulls out a rapier and still fights with Dex.
    Aside:

    Or they just eat an opportunity attack and then fire away with ranged weapons as usual. (The Hunter Ranger feature Escape the Horde is useful in this scenario.) It depends.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-02-21 at 03:33 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Sharpshooter vs GWM

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Aside:

    Or they just eat an opportunity attack and then fire away with ranged weapons as usual. (The Hunter Ranger feature Escape the Horde is useful in this scenario.) It depends.
    Or are a high elf who knows Shocking Grasp, there are lots of options. My larger point is that a Dex-ranged character does not get the same helping of penalties when being thrown out of their theoretical comfort zone as their Str-melee counterparts.

  13. - Top - End - #43

    Default Re: Sharpshooter vs GWM

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    Or are a high elf who knows Shocking Grasp, there are lots of options. My larger point is that a Dex-ranged character does not get the same helping of penalties when being thrown out of their theoretical comfort zone as their Str-melee counterparts.
    Agreed. It gets better:

    It just occurred to me that Escape the Horde is redundant against anyone with a 10' reach, because you can drop prone at 10', crawl out of reach, and then stand back up before attacking. Total movement cost: 30', and the opportunity attack is now at disadvantage because it's an attack against a prone target at range greater than 5'. That's kind of interesting. Archers should be trained to roll away from halberdiers/giants before firing.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Sharpshooter vs GWM

    All this debate is good but it doesn't talk about the fact that darts and Vlowgun get the bonus yet my Longsword is a no go.

    I do think it's crap that archery gives you a +2, so you take a -3 For a +10 damage.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Sharpshooter vs GWM

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    I should step back and acknowledge that you are correct. Melee (Str melee, to be specific) is actually, when applicable, more powerful than ranged. The slight greater synergy that archery fighting style has than GWM notwithstanding, melee is clearly superior. Except of course that you have to get up to your opponent (and survive standing next to them). That's a problem that is baked into the game. The equivalent limitations for ranged are either trivialized with feats, or very DM dependent (ex. we in my groups have always had a limit to how many arrows you can carry, but that's nowhere in the rules). So disproportionate constraints. Also, a ranged character forced into melee (if they don't have XBE) pulls out a rapier and still fights with Dex. A Melee character forced into ranged... either has a decent Dex on top of Str, pulls out a javelin (which has range issues, plus parity problems after level 5 baring houserules), or maybe a combat cantrip obtained through one means or another. None of which make the Str-based melee character as good at ranged as the Dex-based ranged character is at melee.

    I'm not saying that you are in any way wrong. It still seems however, that whatever limitations the designers wanted for ranged combat in 5e were too easy to work around, and it is a good preferred default mode for combat effectiveness, baring specifically wanting to play something which capitalizes on one of those melee features you mention.
    I concur with ranged being very powerful, and that if you are good ranged, as a side effect you are at least a decent melee. I was just raising points in favor of GWM, because it seemed it wasn't being given as much credit as was due.

    Personally I've never had either, but I've seen both in play. Ranged has the advantage to come only really fast, as a DM I had a player roll a Tabaxi Ranger (revised), lvl 2 Archery, lvl 3 Gloom Stalker, lvl 4 SS, lvl 5 extra attack. Those 5 levels were spike after spike, and he was clearly the top DD of the party, at 5th though, the Protector Aasimar Fiendlock got on par (and ofc it is another ranged :P). However by lvl 10 or so the Goliath Paladin of Vengeance was doing pretty comparable damage, and in order to pressure him more of an encounter's xp budget was required than to pressure either of the other 2.

    Thinking about this now, maybe the gravest problem is that a ranged character doesn't have to go thru much problems to get to what it needs, its online basically since level one, when melees require more investment and take longer to get on par with them.
    Last edited by Rukelnikov; 2019-02-21 at 05:01 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Sharpshooter vs GWM

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Agreed. It gets better:

    It just occurred to me that Escape the Horde is redundant against anyone with a 10' reach, because you can drop prone at 10', crawl out of reach, and then stand back up before attacking. Total movement cost: 30', and the opportunity attack is now at disadvantage because it's an attack against a prone target at range greater than 5'. That's kind of interesting. Archers should be trained to roll away from halberdiers/giants before firing.
    Ugh. You suck, Max. I didn't need to know how stupid that is. You could have kept it to yourself.
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  17. - Top - End - #47

    Default Re: Sharpshooter vs GWM

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Ugh. You suck, Max. I didn't need to know how stupid that is. You could have kept it to yourself.
    It's a side effect of the stupidity of 5E opportunity attacks in general. It's basically impossible to make sense of why retreating makes you easier to attack but charging or being tied up or even paralyzed does not. GURPS does exactly the opposite: if you retreat as part of a Dodge/Parry/Block, you get a small bonus to your chance of success (but you can only do it once per round, and of course you lose ground).

    Given that it already makes no sense that backing away from a pike lets the guy with a pike stab you, it isn't surprising that reasonable defenses against long-ranged attacks (like being prone) also make no sense in that context. A reasonable fix would be to say, "I don't care what the range is, melee attacks always have advantage against a prone target, because you can control a melee attack mid-swing and attack the target from a different angle, unlike with a ranged weapon."

    Incidentally this fix is so intuitive that I have seen people accidentally apply it without realizing that the RAW is technically different.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Sharpshooter vs GWM

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    It's a side effect of the stupidity of 5E opportunity attacks in general. It's basically impossible to make sense of why retreating makes you easier to attack but charging or being tied up or even paralyzed does not. GURPS does exactly the opposite: if you retreat as part of a Dodge/Parry/Block, you get a small bonus to your chance of success (but you can only do it once per round, and of course you lose ground).

    Given that it already makes no sense that backing away from a pike lets the guy with a pike stab you, it isn't surprising that reasonable defenses against long-ranged attacks (like being prone) also make no sense in that context. A reasonable fix would be to say, "I don't care what the range is, melee attacks always have advantage against a prone target, because you can control a melee attack mid-swing and attack the target from a different angle, unlike with a ranged weapon."

    Incidentally this fix is so intuitive that I have seen people accidentally apply it without realizing that the RAW is technically different.
    Disavantage with glaive/halberd/etc against prone doesn't make any sense really.

    Regarding AoO nonsense, being paralyzed means every attack against you has advantage and is an auto crit, so I take it like you have no guard at all, why doesn't this generate an AoO idk.

  19. - Top - End - #49

    Default Re: Sharpshooter vs GWM

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukelnikov View Post
    Disavantage with glaive/halberd/etc against prone doesn't make any sense really.

    Regarding AoO nonsense, being paralyzed means every attack against you has advantage and is an auto crit, so I take it like you have no guard at all, why doesn't this generate an AoO idk.
    I wonder if there's any reason not to implement a houserule like this:

    Condition: Unguarded
    Anyone in melee range may make an opportunity attack against you with their reaction.

    Retreating from melee at more than 1/3 normal speed without Disengaging makes you Unguarded, and being incapacitated also makes you Unguarded. (Stunned/Petrified/Unconscious all make you Incapacitated and therefore Unguarded too.)

    It does make mobs of melee monsters stronger, and it makes Hypnotic Pattern an attack spell (can use it to trigger opportunity attacks instead of to disable), but would any of that be bad for the game?

    For grognard DMs, add the following: A spellcaster is Unguarded while casting a spell. Has the nice side effect giving you a reason to have actual fighters in your party instead of just Cleric 1/Wizard Xs in heavy armor with Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade for good melee damage and full spellcasting.

    Worth playtesting maybe. Thoughts?

    P.S. Beholders, Black Puddings, and other 360-vision creatures can have their own special trait, 360-degree vision: retreating from melee never leaves this creature Unguarded.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-02-21 at 05:49 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: Sharpshooter vs GWM

    I don't like it.

    Trying to figure out 1/3 out of 25 or 40 speed just doesn't seem like a solid design choice, and creating alternate "5 foot step" rules was kinda what 5e was trying to avoid: slowing down the game.

    Lastly, there are spells that are designed for melee combat (Shocking Grasp, Word of Radiance) that already don't see enough use due to the weapon cantrips. I think the fault comes down to the weapon cantrips rather than trying to balance everything around that.

    However, here's something that I think is a bit simpler:

    • Creatures with Reach are considered to have both 5 foot and 10 foot reach. This means that if you are adjacent to a giant, you provoke an Opportunity Attack if you move to 10 feet away.
    • If you make an Object Interaction without spending an Action, you provoke Opportunity Attacks to adjacent enemies unless you're drawing a light weapon.



    This ends up causing ranged combatants to have to preemptively swap to melee weapons or else risk an attack against them, provides more value to sidearms, penalizes casters who constantly sheath their weapon to hold a shield and weapon and still cast freely. Consider the fact that most circumstances that cause you to fall prone/incapacitated also would make you drop your weapon, which creates a similar dynamic to what you are looking for.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-02-21 at 06:56 PM.
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: Sharpshooter vs GWM

    I have been misinformed this whole time in regards to shooting into a melee. However, I would like a something in the books to be able to point it out to my players.
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  22. - Top - End - #52

    Default Re: Sharpshooter vs GWM

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    However, here's something that I think is a bit simpler:

    • Creatures with Reach are considered to have both 5 foot and 10 foot reach. This means that if you are adjacent to a giant, you provoke an Opportunity Attack if you move to 10 feet away.
    • If you make an Object Interaction without spending an Action, you provoke Opportunity Attacks to adjacent enemies unless you're drawing a light weapon.
    I like the first one especially. I don't mind the second one but I'd probably draw the boundaries in a slightly different place than drawing a light weapon.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: Sharpshooter vs GWM

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent-KI7KO View Post
    I have been misinformed this whole time in regards to shooting into a melee. However, I would like a something in the books to be able to point it out to my players.
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