[HELP] Level 14 Diviner + Mind Spike

[kenGarff]

I am looking to build a mechanically optimized (for the most part) level 14 diviner. I'd love to get help on picking a race. The likes of winged tiefling and yuan ti are banned.

[Frozenstep]

What are you optimizing for? Getting the best spell-slot-to-damage ratio? Getting the most out of mind spike, regardless of the fact you can get a lot more out of other spells even with the lower-spell-slot refund? Just being effective in general?

[kenGarff]

Not sure. I suspect this will have lots of combats simply because our DM informed us that we'll be in the middle of a war even though we are simply a party of messengers. I suppose in general. The last time I played a diviner, I practically never used any offensive spells. I don't even think I knew what mind spike was. Trying to see what the best diviner race(s) is.

[Blood of Gaea]

Mind spike is never going to be a good option, it's just a bad spell. The only way to "optimize" it is to ensure you can get a spell slot back from using it as often as possible. But upcasting it is also a bit of a trap as you waste your 5th level slot.

[kenGarff]

Mind spike is never going to be a good option, it's just a bad spell. The only way to "optimize" it is to ensure you can get a spell slot back from using it as often as possible. But upcasting it is also a bit of a trap as you waste your 5th level slot.

I was going to use it as part of my spell list without building a character around it but I'll have to reiterate it in the OP. What would you say is the best diviner race and why? Thanks.

[PhantomSoul]

For mind spike itself this thread had some good discussion as a starting point -- notably, it requiring concentration is a hefty price, but if you're more patient than the combat probably allows you can get some good damage.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...cialist-wizard

To shamelessly plug part of my own comment since it goes through maximum theoretical damage if you really stick to Mind Spike (for some reason):

With the caveat that you probably want to do something else with your Concentration, you might want to do it the other way around (increasing levels rather than decreasing) because you need to have Expended a Spell Slot of the Level you want to regain a Slot for. With your order you need to already have Expended a Spell Slot from each of those Levels... but instead, assuming you don't coincidentally/plan to do that, consider:

Ahead of time: Optimally, use Shield, Mage Armor, whatever you feel like from level 1 based on your needs.
Mind Spike: Level 2, 3d8 Psychic Damage (save for 1/2). Recover first-level slot
Mind Spike: Level 3, 4d8 Psychic Damage (save for 1/2). Recover second-level slot.
Mind Spike: Level 4, 5d8 Psychic Damage (save for 1/2). Recover third-level slot.
Mind Spike: Level 5, 6d8 Psychic Damage (save for 1/2). Recover fourth-level slot.
Mind Spike: Level 6, 7d8 Psychic Damage (save for 1/2). Recover fifth-level slot.

Of course, this takes your Concentration and is over the course of five Turns in Combat (improves if you can use Warcaster's pseudo-Opportunity Attack option to accelerate the process). On the bright side, though, a Sixth-Level Slot was worth 25d8 Psychic Damage (Save for half) plus a First-Level Spell of your choosing... but, you know, it's a Sixth-Level Slot and 5 Turns/"Actions". I'd say it's probably more useful to use Expert Divination + Mind Spike just as a tactic when you've already Expended a Slot and you somehow don't have a current (better!) use for your Concentration... which is pretty unlikely overall!

[Frozenstep]

I was going to use it as part of my spell list without building a character around it but I'll have to reiterate it in the OP. What would you say is the best diviner race and why? Thanks.

Well, if we ignore the mind spike shenanigans...

Elven accuracy is probably not useful. The way I read it, portent completely replaces the need to roll, so it doesn't have any favorable synergy with advantage, much less elven accuracy advantage. You probably don't have any spell attack rolls that are super important to boost with elven accuracy, either.

Bountiful luck...is something, but I wouldn't say it has anything that would work better with portent. If someone on your team absolutely needs to succeed on something, you'll give them your portent roll, lest they fail with a roll of 2 instead of 1, and preventing you from giving your luck rerolled into portent.

Variant human is usually not a bad choice for any build. Being able to pick up resilient con or warcaster can make a huge difference when you're locking something down with a spell you used a portent on. By level 14 though, you could potentially use an ASI to have gotten it.

Gnomes and their gnome cunning could be insanely good if that war of yours has enemy casters.

[Blood of Gaea]

I was going to use it as part of my spell list without building a character around it but I'll have to reiterate it in the OP. What would you say is the best diviner race and why? Thanks.

Depends on your needs, but as a general rule: Gnomes (Deep is the best), Variant Humans (Lucky has good synergy with Divination), High-Elves, and Yuan-Ti Purebloods make the best Wizards. This holds true for Divination.

[ImproperJustice]

At level 14, you may want to make sure the GM is aware of the sending spell, which may negate or lessen the need for Mesengers unless you are plane hopping.

[sithlordnergal]

Mind spike is never going to be a good option, it's just a bad spell. The only way to "optimize" it is to ensure you can get a spell slot back from using it as often as possible. But upcasting it is also a bit of a trap as you waste your 5th level slot.

Mind Spike is a bad spell? Odd, I've found it is a fine spell. 3d8 psychic damage is nice, and its rider can be useful when it does come into effect. Being able to ignore the benefits of Invisibility on a creature is really nice

[kenGarff]

Thanks for all the responses so far.

For mind spike itself this thread had some good discussion as a starting point -- notably, it requiring concentration is a hefty price, but if you're more patient than the combat probably allows you can get some good damage.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...cialist-wizard

To shamelessly plug part of my own comment since it goes through maximum theoretical damage if you really stick to Mind Spike (for some reason):

Sweet. Does it work with elven accuracy?

[PhantomSoul]

Thanks for all the responses so far.



Sweet. Does it work with elven accuracy?

Nope: Elven Accuracy only applies if there's an Attack Roll, whereas Mind Spike uses a Saving Throw.

[kenGarff]

Dang. I guess Gnome is looking a lot stronger than high elf or human variant for a wizard. Thanks everyone.

[Frozenstep]

Just to make it clear and to repeat a point made by PhantomSoul, I would not suggest going into combat with the plan of doing mind spike for 5 turns in a row. If you have that much time to concentrate on dealing damage, using 5 actions to turn a 6th level spell slot into 25d8 (112.5) physic damage, you could probably cast animate objects at 6th level and turn 1 action and 5 bonus actions into 60d4+240 (390) bludgeoning damage, and if combat is still going and you haven't lost concentration, proceed to do that same amount again with 5 more bonus actions and no extra spell slots.

Of course, mind spike is a saving throw for half, while animate object is a whole bunch of +8 attempts to hit (fairly accurate) so they can miss. Animated objects can crit, can gain advantage from many situations (especially since they have blindsight...even invisible creatures don't bother them), and with animate objects you still have your action to cantrip/cast other spells/dodge. Also note they can make attacks of opportunity, potentially doubling their damage.

Just laying it out just incase somehow mind spike still looks like this uber-efficient option that extracts a lot of damage from each spell slot compared to other options. It has its place as a single-turn relatively cheap option when you have little else to concentrate on, but personally I don't think I'd ever willingly use a 5th level spell slot or above on a mind spike.

[Blood of Gaea]

Mind Spike is a bad spell? Odd, I've found it is a fine spell. 3d8 psychic damage is nice, and its rider can be useful when it does come into effect. Being able to ignore the benefits of Invisibility on a creature is really nice

It's terrible, it requires concentration, so it can't combine with your most potent spells, it does 3d8 damage to one target, and applies a condition that's extremely situational in use.

It makes you always aware of where a creature is, it cannot be hidden from you, and you ignore invisibility. However, that does not stop you from being effectively blinded through any number of methods, like full cover, darkness, or fog. And it only applies this effect to you, not your party.

In comparison, Shatter could deal 3d8 damage in an AoE without concentration. Let alone the 3, 4, 5, or 6th level spell slots people talk about using for this spell.

[Man_Over_Game]

It's terrible, it requires concentration, so it can't combine with your most potent spells, it does 3d8 damage to one target, and applies a condition that's extremely situational in use.

It makes you always aware of where a creature is, it cannot be hidden from you, and you ignore invisibility. However, that does not stop you from being effectively blinded through any number of methods, like full cover, darkness, or fog. And it only applies this effect to you, not your party.

In comparison, Shatter could deal 3d8 damage in an AoE without concentration. Let alone the 3, 4, 5, or 6th level spell slots people talk about using for this spell.

To be fair, as a DM, I'd just rule those things as "You always perceive where this character is", meaning it'd ignore things like blindness, 1/2 or 3/4 cover, heavily obscured, or anything else that impacts your ability to see them. Almost like you have blindsense/tremorsense for detecting specifically them. It doesn't have to explicitly read that way, but that's what makes the most sense.

--------

The proper use of the Expert Divination feature is actually about casting Divination spells out of combat so you can scout without losing resources. The real strategy is something like:

1. True Seeing
2. Rary's Telepathic Bond
3. Arcane Eye
4. See Invisibility
5. Longstrider/Shield/Jump/Absorb Elements/Whatever level 1 spell

All in 30 seconds with a single spell slot.

Or I guess you could spam Mind Spike against a single target for subpar damage and hope the boss actually cares.

If it were me, I'd just tell my DM what level 1 spell slot I'm buffing an ally with and tell him the standard spell combo I'm using before we enter a dungeon.

Me-"Hey, boss. Before we enter, I'm casting False Life and I'm doing the thing".
DM-"Ugh. Fine. You do your perfect Eye of Sauron impersonation." _{(I SEE YOU)}

[Teaguethebean]

As a wizard if you are trying to deliver a message just cast sending and if you fear your getting jumped up ahead just use an arcane eye traveling a 100 some yards ahead

[hwem]

I think the best diviner race, mechanically, would be gnome (deep most likely) for their stats and their gnome cunning racial feature. High Elf/Eladrin get, for the most part, fey ancestry but I am not sure if that can be considered better than gnome's gnome cunning. As for variant human, by level 14...PCs should probably have 20 in INT and a feat while variant human would have 20 in INT and two feats but would be lacking dark vision and gnome cunning/fey ancestry like features. Sorry. Just wanted to chime in since people weren't discussing your question regarding the choice of race. So I just thought I could give my opinions on it.

[Blood of Gaea]

I think the best diviner race, mechanically, would be gnome (deep most likely) for their stats and their gnome cunning racial feature. High Elf/Eladrin get, for the most part, fey ancestry but I am not sure if that can be considered better than gnome's gnome cunning. As for variant human, by level 14...PCs should probably have 20 in INT and a feat while variant human would have 20 in INT and two feats but would be lacking dark vision and gnome cunning/fey ancestry like features. Sorry. Just wanted to chime in since people weren't discussing your question regarding the choice of race. So I just thought I could give my opinions on it.

Only needing 4 hours for a long rest mean you have 4 hours to cast any rituals needed, perhaps a long term buff, and you can fit a short rest in there to recover some spell slots for this prep work as well. Due to that, High Elf Wizards are actually really handy.

[Particle_Man]

Another option is mountain dwarf for those sweet armour proficiencies. Might indirectly help with concentration since you won’t get hit as often.

[Blood of Gaea]

Another option is mountain dwarf for those sweet armour proficiencies. Might indirectly help with concentration since you won’t get hit as often.

Kind of a trap. You get Medium armor, but not bonus to Int or Dex, so you have to buy at least 14 Dex and 14 Int. You also get a whole +2 to the stat you are probably least likely to find useful.

[Shuruke]

For mind spike itself this thread had some good discussion as a starting point -- notably, it requiring concentration is a hefty price, but if you're more patient than the combat probably allows you can get some good damage.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...cialist-wizard

To shamelessly plug part of my own comment since it goes through maximum theoretical damage if you really stick to Mind Spike (for some reason):

this is interesting to point out
But when it comes down to the 5 turn mind spike
Witch bolt as 6th level is 6d12 a turn
But the first attack has to hit
Which portent could help with
30d12 over 5 turns no save to 1/2 if first attack hits
In the end

Mind spike would be fun I think but would fall behind dice wise
The 25d8 (not sure if remembering right.) And a first level spell slot could come in handy compared to 30d12
Especially since
If the combat ends turn 3
You still have the recycled slots.


I've been interested in seeing someone do mind spike thing and everytimenthis concept comes up makes me think of Dr.Strange and his face full of needles

[Frozenstep]

this is interesting to point out
But when it comes down to the 5 turn mind spike
Witch bolt as 6th level is 6d12 a turn
But the first attack has to hit
Which portent could help with
30d12 over 5 turns no save to 1/2 if first attack hits
In the end

Mind spike would be fun I think but would fall behind dice wise
The 25d8 (not sure if remembering right.) And a first level spell slot could come in handy compared to 30d12
Especially since
If the combat ends turn 3
You still have the recycled slots.


I've been interested in seeing someone do mind spike thing and everytimenthis concept comes up makes me think of Dr.Strange and his face full of needles

Only the initial hit of witch bolt scales with spell slot. Fun ruined.

[Shuruke]

Witch bolt only has it's initial damage scale up with spell slot. Fun ruined.

Wow never noticed that XD assumed both increased

Well was really only comparing because Witch bolt was generally considered bad for its other limitations

The only initial scaling kinda drives it home further how bad it is lol

[hwem]

If you're ok with Ravnica stuff...Vedalken looks VERY strong. The WIS+1 seems "useless" the lack of DarkVision is concerning. But the Vedalken Dispassion is an upgraded Gnome Cunning and Tireless Precision sounds great. Much of what Vedalken Dispassion covers is covered by Gnome cunning since much of it is magic but still. What are your thoughts on gnome (deep especially) vs Vedalken?

[Particle_Man]

Kind of a trap. You get Medium armor, but not bonus to Int or Dex, so you have to buy at least 14 Dex and 14 Int. You also get a whole +2 to the stat you are probably least likely to find useful.

Well it is a wizard. I think that 14 int and 14 dex are not going to break the character concept (dex is good for AC and for initiative, which spellcasters like to win), and the bonus to con ain't bad either. I mean for rolled stats, you are likely to get two fair-to-good stats anyhow.

So a 27 point buy would be 9 points to int (15), 7 points to dex (14), 5 to con (13 becomes 15), 4 to wis (12 ain't bad), 0 to str (10 - wearing breastplate or half-plate is likely not a problem), 0 to chr (8). One of the ASI can improve Int and Con to 16. If you care more about con, you can leave wis at 8 and move con to 17. Then the ASI takes int to 16 and con to 18.

[kenGarff]

If you're ok with Ravnica stuff...Vedalken looks VERY strong. The WIS+1 seems "useless" the lack of DarkVision is concerning. But the Vedalken Dispassion is an upgraded Gnome Cunning and Tireless Precision sounds great. Much of what Vedalken Dispassion covers is covered by Gnome cunning since much of it is magic but still. What are your thoughts on gnome (deep especially) vs Vedalken?

I did not think of the Ravnica materials. Thanks.Vedalken sounds very strong. I'd love to hear more people's thoughts on it and how Vedalken fares against Gnome (deep) as the candidate for best diviner/wizard race.

[hwem]

Yeah! It looks great. I typically don’t hear much about vedalken. It’s probably due to it being new. I personally think it’s slightly mechanically better than any gnome except for abjurer and illusion.