The LA-assignment thread -0: Inevitably rejected: Redux

[martixy]

You forgot to cover the Adult and Elder Arrowhawks and the Greater Abyssal Basilisk.
(Also, for some reason I had to kill the links, since 10 posts are required to have links even if you're quoting them and the system thinks I only have 2 despite my previous activity both in Roleplaying Games and in Forum Games.)

That's intentional, forgot to explicitly mention why in the first post. Have done so now.

[liquidformat]

Delver

....

So on the plus side this thing has good mental stats which is rare for beat sticks, it can talk which is a plus since you don't have to jump through any hoops there, and it has a decent skill list. On the minus side, as said before most likely not a tool user and even worse it is huge with 1d6 slam which is absolute garbage. Also while stone shape is a cool idea a ten minute cool down sucks and makes it a once encounter ability.

Even though the delver is huge and has pretty nice ability scores I am just scratching my head over what to do with it, strangely enough I think with tremor sense and burrowing speed the best route would be unarmed strike and try and pickup sneak attack with full bab, maybe Nightsong Enforcer. After thinking things over I am putting my support behind ECL 4, this thing has enough negatives already to be underpowered, further handicapping it by being two bab behind is just mean.

[dhasenan]

Depends on what kind of adventuring difficulties it might cause. Can it wield weapons? It's unclear. It does have vaguely hand/paw-shaped limbs so eh?

Looks like paws to me. And no mouthpick weapon; its mouth is under it. You might argue that you get a bite attack if you occupy the same space as a significantly smaller creature, but this thing only eats stone/mucus sludge, so it's probably not good at biting.

The Corrosive Slime ability is a huge problem. It doesn't exempt your items, and it doesn't exempt you. The Delver has rock-like skin, so it's a stony creature, so it takes 8d10 damage per round from using Corrosive Slime. The 15RHD version would kill itself in an average of four rounds; most equipment would only last a couple. Plus the Stone Shape ability requires using Corrosive Slime (but doesn't override the damage clause). So those are two abilities you want to avoid at all costs. That just leaves a pile of stats and two 1d6 slam attacks.

But can you toggle it? It's implied by the text that a Delver is normally covered with the slime (both in the appearance and in the Stone Shape ability). If it isn't toggleable, the Delver can only live as long as it keeps washing the slime off itself, making it inappropriate for a character. Plus if it enters a throneroom or inn, it's going to corrode the floor. If you put it on a raft, it will eat its way through the raft. If you ask it to toggle a lever, there's a 10% chance it eats the lever instead.

If the ability is toggleable, you can just leave it off, and then you need to be careful when eating to avoid corrosive sliming yourself to death. It doesn't have any ability to apply water to itself to wash off the slime, so that's probably a cooperative endeavor involving several helpers, stepladders, and buckets.

So you need to houserule that it's not vulnerable to its own slime and clarify that it's a toggleable ability, so that's a *.

At 9 RHD, to follow its CR, this thing trails behind a pure barbarian with a +1 Flaming Greatsword in pure damage output, and it has no future. At 4 RHD, it's got two 1d6 slams at +9, whereas a Barbarian 4 water orc has a single attack at +10 dealing 1d6 damage (plus actual class features). If the orc put a lot of its money into its weapon, that could be 2d6 instead, putting it solidly in the lead offensively. Defensively, it's a bit behind. But the orc can actually go inside buildings and pick up small objects and tie knots, is a lot faster, and can use a compound bow. The delver has a burrow speed and is good at excavation.

So 4* sounds reasonable.

It would be an impressive mount, though.

[Lans]

It's immune to acid

[dhasenan]

It's immune to acid

Thank you. (I didn't spot that it was acid damage; the description only says that it does acid damage against organics.) Still, any character that uses items will want this ability to be inactive most of the time.

[liquidformat]

Looks like paws to me. And no mouthpick weapon; its mouth is under it. You might argue that you get a bite attack if you occupy the same space as a significantly smaller creature, but this thing only eats stone/mucus sludge, so it's probably not good at biting.

The Corrosive Slime ability is a huge problem. It doesn't exempt your items, and it doesn't exempt you. The Delver has rock-like skin, so it's a stony creature, so it takes 8d10 damage per round from using Corrosive Slime. The 15RHD version would kill itself in an average of four rounds; most equipment would only last a couple. Plus the Stone Shape ability requires using Corrosive Slime (but doesn't override the damage clause). So those are two abilities you want to avoid at all costs. That just leaves a pile of stats and two 1d6 slam attacks.

But can you toggle it? It's implied by the text that a Delver is normally covered with the slime (both in the appearance and in the Stone Shape ability). If it isn't toggleable, the Delver can only live as long as it keeps washing the slime off itself, making it inappropriate for a character. Plus if it enters a throneroom or inn, it's going to corrode the floor. If you put it on a raft, it will eat its way through the raft. If you ask it to toggle a lever, there's a 10% chance it eats the lever instead.

If the ability is toggleable, you can just leave it off, and then you need to be careful when eating to avoid corrosive sliming yourself to death. It doesn't have any ability to apply water to itself to wash off the slime, so that's probably a cooperative endeavor involving several helpers, stepladders, and buckets.

So you need to houserule that it's not vulnerable to its own slime and clarify that it's a toggleable ability, so that's a *.

At 9 RHD, to follow its CR, this thing trails behind a pure barbarian with a +1 Flaming Greatsword in pure damage output, and it has no future. At 4 RHD, it's got two 1d6 slams at +9, whereas a Barbarian 4 water orc has a single attack at +10 dealing 1d6 damage (plus actual class features). If the orc put a lot of its money into its weapon, that could be 2d6 instead, putting it solidly in the lead offensively. Defensively, it's a bit behind. But the orc can actually go inside buildings and pick up small objects and tie knots, is a lot faster, and can use a compound bow. The delver has a burrow speed and is good at excavation.

So 4* sounds reasonable.

It would be an impressive mount, though.

If an ability is so dysfunctional that it ends up killing itself then you can assume you are incorrect in your interpretation of the rules for said creature...

[martixy]

Pretty sure any playable version of this would have to go with the less dysfunctional version of not dissolving its own items. But it is worth an asterisk at least.

It has decent mental stats, I can kinda see it not being a beatstick too (especially if you de-advance it to large or medium).
I'm kinda hesitant to bring it all the way back down to 4 tho. It does have a crapton of stats and AC. A lost BAB isn't the end of the world, and a monster game is better off using fractional BAB anyway, lessening the gap further.

At 9 RHD, to follow its CR, this thing trails behind a pure barbarian with a +1 Flaming Greatsword in pure damage output, and it has no future. At 4 RHD, it's got two 1d6 slams at +9, whereas a Barbarian 4 water orc has a single attack at +10 dealing 1d6 damage (plus actual class features). If the orc put a lot of its money into its weapon, that could be 2d6 instead, putting it solidly in the lead offensively. Defensively, it's a bit behind. But the orc can actually go inside buildings and pick up small objects and tie knots, is a lot faster, and can use a compound bow. The delver has a burrow speed and is good at excavation.

So 4* sounds reasonable.

Taking this as an example:
Not only are we forgetting damage, which is 1d6+8+2d6 acid, but the two attacks more than make up for the 1-lower attack roll. I'd say that puts IT solidly in the lead offensively. Couple that with the stronger defenses and a good smattering of mental stats. Makes me hesitant to bring it all the way down to 4, asterisk notwithstanding.
Being able to enter buildings is a non-sequitur. If you're gonna have monsters in your game like that, you'll need some provision for accommodating the varied creature sizes.

I'll give an example savage progression.

Spoiler: 5 Levels

Show

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special
1	+0.75	+0.33	+0.33	+2.50	Burrow, Immunity to Acid, Tremorsense, Slams
2	+0.75	+0.33	+0.33	+0.50	Large
3	+0.75	+0.33	+0.33	+0.50	+6 Dex, +2 Con, +5 AC, Corrosive Slime
4	+0.75	+0.33	+0.33	+0.50	Huge
5	+0.75	+0.33	+0.33	+0.50	+4 Int, +4 Wis, +2 Cha, +5 AC, Stone Shape

At 4 it feels like you're cramming way too much in there.

[dhasenan]

Not only are we forgetting damage, which is 1d6+8+2d6 acid, but the two attacks more than make up for the 1-lower attack roll.

The 2d6 acid damage is from the ability that melts your own equipment. Which makes Vow of Poverty pretty attractive, I'll admit.

[RoTWS]

The 2d6 acid damage is from the ability that melts your own equipment. Which makes Vow of Poverty pretty attractive, I'll admit.

If Vow of Poverty will actually optimize a character, that character is ****.
4*. Without melting its items, this would actually be useful.

[martixy]

If it didn't dissolve its own equipment would it be worth 5 RHD?

I feel like everyone keeps including the asterisk in the final assessment, which is not something we should be doing.

[dhasenan]

If it didn't dissolve its own equipment would it be worth 5 RHD?

I feel like everyone keeps including the asterisk in the final assessment, which is not something we should be doing.

So the houserule here is that the slime affects your enemies, their weapons, and their armor, but nothing else? It magically goes through your armor and so forth?

At 5th level, it can purchase enough items to start making up for its issues, and the melee / grappling bonuses are still good enough to carry it through that sort of combat. I'd call it tier 4 at that point.

It's also pretty unkind to the DM, who has to prepare versions of each monster with and without weapons, with and without armor, and judge how stony, fleshy, or metallic each enemy is.

[martixy]

There's 2 trains of thought here:
Verisimilitude and Consistency.

With the former, you got acid dissolving your items.
With the latter, given that Acid is a form of energy damage in D&D, and how many similar energy effects specifically note they do not damage your equipment, acid has no reason to feel any more special than fire or cold damage.

I feel like both are valid approaches. For some gameplay trumps fluff, for others verisimilitude is a key component of the game. I try not to judge.

Bringing us back to the question:
If it didn't dissolve its own equipment would it be worth 5 RHD?

...which you didn't answer.
(IMO, the answer is yes.)

[dhasenan]

5RHD sounds reasonable. Like I already said, it seems like tier 4 at that point.

[liquidformat]

I like going with the blanket rule that abilities like this don't ruin the creature's own equipment just because it makes for a more fun game with less useless hoops to jump through. This also helps with some weird questions for fire based and acid based creatures such as how doesn't it melt through the ground and just get stuck falling ever deeper into the ground. We are already in the realm of suspended disbelief with the blanket statement of 'magic' stop trying to apply silly dysfunctional logic that does nothing to enhance the game and only adds more stupid hoops to jump through.

Anyways I still don't think not ruining its equipment is enough of a boost to bring this thing up an entire rhd. My earlier rating ignored this dysfunctional interpretation of acid and still didn't make sense to have 5 rhd. I stick with 4 rhd.

[GreatWyrmGold]

This also helps with some weird questions for fire based and acid based creatures such as how doesn't it melt through the ground and just get stuck falling ever deeper into the ground.

Most fire doesn't melt dirt, and most acid is way less potent than xenomorph blood. (And even if it did dissolve dirt, it would get saturated before it got too far. Which could be its own problem, but meh.)

[liquidformat]

Most fire doesn't melt dirt, and most acid is way less potent than xenomorph blood. (And even if it did dissolve dirt, it would get saturated before it got too far. Which could be its own problem, but meh.)

I recall there are some monsters with screwy enough burn abilities that are continuous and deal enough damage that by RAW there is no reason they shouldn't be destroying any surface they are standing on which is an issue. Magmin's melt weapon ability has this type of feel if you were to read into it at all.

[Blue Jay]

Are we still going here? I think martixy has put together the best system for handling negative LA, so I'd hate to see this die. I will add my voice to the chorus of 5 RHD for the delver, in the hopes that it might help this thread not die.

I think the next one is the derro, and if you don't mind me jumping the gun a bit, I'll go ahead and vote for 2 RHD for the derro. I honestly think 3 is fine too, but with that sunlight weakness and the lack of scaling on the Spell Resistance, 2 is probably more appropriate.

[Lans]

I think derro is on a very fine line, where it might be appropriate at 3 Hd

[Blue Jay]

I think derro is on a very fine line, where it might be appropriate at 3 Hd

Does anyone else think the derro is worth its current 3 HD? So far, two of us seem to think it's close.

[liquidformat]

I find the Derro kind of goofy to get my head around, +6 net ability scores and +2 natural armor is pretty good, especially when madness helps make wis a dump stat (as long as you aren't interested in any skills with wis). I personally think the version with madness is the more interesting one though can't understand why these guys aren't always CE or atleast always chaotic. Daze isn't great to begin with and becomes irrelevant in a couple levels, sound burst while not horrible you aren't exactly going to be pumping out huge save dcs. But darkness and ghost sounds are pretty good for a while. Poison use is a bit expensive but you are low enough level that it is a decent option. +4 hide/move silently is nice but nothing special and +1d6 Sneak attack isn't anything to sneeze at. The biggest downside to these guys is that they tan worse than the irish ginger at the beach. Full bab and two good saves is nice and these guys seem like a mix between gish, scout, and skill monkies and probably push you towards a rogue.

I believe they have enough going on that if they didn't have the horrible light sensitivity I would be happy with them at 3 rhd, even though they kind of suffer from lack of focus. At 2 rhd I am afraid they are too powerful to not choose, they have +4 dex, +2 con, +6 cha and madness allows their -6 wis to be ignorable. I could totally see going with a rogue warlock build or another cha caster and totally kicking face with these things. Derro without madness I think I would be comfortable with 2 rhd though.

[Blue Jay]

So I guess we have three votes of "2 or 3 HD" for the derro. I like liquidformat's suggestion of 2 HD for a sane derro, and 3 for a derro with Madness, and it sounds like that's pretty close to the consensus among the three of us.

How about the destrachan? This is a monster I actually kind of find interesting,

• Large size
• Bonuses to all abilities. By ViperMagnum's criteria (+4 ability scores and +1 natural armor per level), it's right on par for 8 HD. +8 Wis stands out, but a destrachan cleric or druid would be handicapped by the loss of caster levels.
• Blind, with all the immunities that gives, and a good Blindsight range (100 ft)
• 2 claws (1d6) are its only weapons, and maaaaybe it can wield manufactured weapons (but I doubt it)
• Destructive Harmonics is kind of neat, in that it can be modulated for different effects; but the large area of effect actually makes it feel uncontrollable, so it's kind of a liability. Still maybe good for blasting a door down or something like that. Maybe it's the rough equivalent of a 3rd-level blasting spell (or a couple 3rd-level blasting spells).

I feel like 5 HD is a pretty good fit, but it feels like kind of a stab in the dark for me. It's got better ability scores and variety of features than a centaur or ogre, but without the centaur's BAB or charge options, or the ogre's reach. The only good avenue for advancement that I can think of is a swordsage focusing on the Tiger Claw discipline: +8 Wis for the AC bonus, +8 Str for damage and maneuver save DCs, and you're only one maneuver level behind (but you'll probably know more 2nd-level maneuvers than usual for a swordsage).

Do you guys think I'm on par? Or would you go higher or lower?

[Lans]

What if we let Derro count as having a flaw?

[Blue Jay]

What if we let Derro count as having a flaw?

I don't know what that would achieve.

[Lans]

I don't know what that would achieve.

It adds another lair of granularity between too weak at 3rd and too strong at 2nd.

[liquidformat]

It adds another lair of granularity between too weak at 3rd and too strong at 2nd.

Can you go a bit more into detail? Are you saying madness count as a flaw. and thereby giving a bonus feat on top of its current function?

destrachan has me scratching my head. It has good ability scores and NA as Blue Jay points out, Destructive Harmonics is actually pretty good and versatile at its ecl but quickly falls off, its skill list is good for what it is but nothing amazing there, it strangely has 5' reach (why not 10') this isn't even touched upon in the fluff; its claws are undersized for a monster with only one natural weapon, blindsight is both a boon and a hindrance, protection from sonic is nice but not very relevant, lack of manipulators is a concern (could be argued either way on this one), and finally the text would suggest that destrachan is incapable of speaking rather than simply untrained.

I believe the designers meant for destrachan to be incapable of speech as its vocal cords are hyper 'evolved' to be used as weapons, and yet the advanced control they have with Destructive Harmonics should perhaps give them enough control to speak. Anyways given the 'If a destrachan must communicate, it does so through action.' it seems like drow sign language is reasonable and the pearl of speech or whatever it is called should also probably fix the issue.

Over all I think if we made the assumption that destrachan is a tool user and its Destructive Harmonics ability scaled both in dc and in damage for flesh and nerves along with ecl, I would be ok with keeping it at 8rhd. If no changes are made I am not sure there is a particularly good number of rhd that make it viable. Dropping rhd to 5 still leaves it 2 bab behind a full beatstick but now with such inflated ability scores that it dominates its peers. I think any adjustment of this monster requires some overhaul and not a simple adjustment of rhd.

[Blue Jay]

Over all I think if we made the assumption that destrachan is a tool user and its Destructive Harmonics ability scaled both in dc and in damage for flesh and nerves along with ecl, I would be ok with keeping it at 8rhd. If no changes are made I am not sure there is a particularly good number of rhd that make it viable. Dropping rhd to 5 still leaves it 2 bab behind a full beatstick but now with such inflated ability scores that it dominates its peers. I think any adjustment of this monster requires some overhaul and not a simple adjustment of rhd.

I don't think it's that bad. The unicorn's ability scores are even more inflated than the destrachan's, and the unicorn was placed at ECL 5. I think a 4HD unicorn matches or even outclasses a 5HD destrachan as a beatstick (unless the destrachan is able to wield manufactured weapons).

[liquidformat]

I don't think it's that bad. The unicorn's ability scores are even more inflated than the destrachan's, and the unicorn was placed at ECL 5. I think a 4HD unicorn matches or even outclasses a 5HD destrachan as a beatstick (unless the destrachan is able to wield manufactured weapons).

Hum, you are correct, the unicorn is also hands down better than the destrachan, with that as a baseline I suppose destrachan at 5 rhd wouldn't be horrible.

[Lans]

Can you go a bit more into detail? Are you saying madness count as a flaw. and thereby giving a bonus feat on top of its current function?

I am arguing for the selection of Derro as an ECL 3 race to also count as a flaw, and thus giving a bonus feat if the campaign is using that variant.

I'm looking for a way to increase balance in cases where races are too good at X-1 ECL but too weak at X

[Blue Jay]

I am arguing for the selection of Derro as an ECL 3 race to also count as a flaw, and thus giving a bonus feat if the campaign is using that variant.

I'm looking for a way to increase balance in cases where races are too good at X-1 ECL but too weak at X

Okay, so you think giving them a bonus feat is a way to make them unquestionably worth the 3 RHD, to help solve the ambiguity between 2 and 3 HD.

It makes sense. I'm not sure whether it's enough to get them there on its own, but it would be a good house rule.

For this thread, I think we should focus on altering racial Hit Dice, but maybe we can also keep a record of other suggested fixes somewhere too.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I don't think it's that bad. The unicorn's ability scores are even more inflated than the destrachan's, and the unicorn was placed at ECL 5. I think a 4HD unicorn matches or even outclasses a 5HD destrachan as a beatstick (unless the destrachan is able to wield manufactured weapons).

...which is irrelevant, since the unicorn's ECL incorporates factors other than their pure beatstick potential (as should the destruchan's). The destruchan has at-will AoEs of an almost-never-resisted energy type and the ability to easily destroy most common materials, while the unicorn has a variety of immunities and SLAs (including a constant magic circle against evil).

Also, I keep wanting to call it Destru-chan. I don't know why, I haven't even been watching anime recently.