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  1. - Top - End - #571
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    I somehow get the feeling that Hancock and Koby would wind up going to Wano, one way or another.

    Also just a quick reminder: Luffy is just a year older than Koby, so the wimpy kid we saw in Alvida's ship was already 16 back then. He went from level 1 to level - rear admiral in 2 years, unlike Luffy who in his early youth was already trained by Sabo and Ace, and was already left alone in the wilds by Garp to fend for himself.

    Maybe Garp is just a MUCH better mentor than Rayleigh.
    When do you think is the hammer-gun-toting, kukuri-wielding, pirate-offscreening, 2nd-generation Marine, badass extraordinaire Helmeppo gonna be an admiral? He may not be anyone's rival, but he's still trained by Garp himself.

    Also I somewhat feel like Akainu will end up being against the WG. There was already a built up tension, and people are quick to point out his sword tattoo as a sign that he is possibly the leader of Sword.
    It is possible I suppose. Could make for an interesting final battle as there are multiple sides. Last time it was pirates, if several groups, against marines. In this one we could see kaido big mom marines, blackbeard, all fighting against each other as well as luffy and probably the rebel army showing up as well as this is their best shot at turning the tide. It would also explain the wg kind of falling apart as half their heavy hitters go rogue and everyone winds up with their forces gutted. As for helmeppo, remember how I mentioned the other option is sucking? Also, keep in mind garp kept pawning luffy off on others, first that tavern girl, then dadan. He didnt really dedicate himself to teaching luffy (or ace) other than what seemed to be his idea of male bonding time. And he was doing it to an actual child luffy and ace, not a teenager so there was only so much actual progress that could be made. And they were fairly badass 10 year olds anyways.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Too be fair, koby IS being trained by garp. You remember garp right? The guy who was about three seconds from absolutely murdering akainu at marineford had sengoku not stopped him?

    You seriously think Garp could've taken akainu at marineford?

    He would've been reduced to a pile of ash...


    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Its like being the personal student of a former kage in naruto. Unless you suck you are going to be on the fast track to a high rank because your mentor knows how to get the best out of you. Plus its kinda necessary from a narrative standpoint. He wont be much of a rival if he is barely vice admiral level while luffy is wearing akainus hide as an overcoat. (That jacket is going to be WARM)

    Their relationship is one-sided, with Luffy simply being his inspiration.


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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by ellenate View Post
    You seriously think Garp could've taken akainu at marineford?

    He would've been reduced to a pile of ash...
    Beaten I don't think so. But everything we know about Garp says he should have been able to put up a good fight against him.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Garp isnt an admiral because he refused to be promoted, not because he isnt admiral level. The ONLY thing that might make the difference is his age. Akainu is at his peak, garp is just past it. But keep in mind that with no devil fruit whatsoever, garp became the hero of the marines, world famous for his strength and ability, and was one of the primary weapons against the pirate king. AND HE WAS ENRAGED at that point. Im pretty sure if both he and whitebeard had punched akainu at the same time the entire island would have been reduced to rubble from the power unleashed.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Garp isnt an admiral because he refused to be promoted, not because he isnt admiral level. The ONLY thing that might make the difference is his age. Akainu is at his peak, garp is just past it. But keep in mind that with no devil fruit whatsoever, garp became the hero of the marines, world famous for his strength and ability, and was one of the primary weapons against the pirate king. AND HE WAS ENRAGED at that point. Im pretty sure if both he and whitebeard had punched akainu at the same time the entire island would have been reduced to rubble from the power unleashed.
    Exactly, we know Garp was on par with Reigleh when they were both in their prime and Garp never actually retired. So while he's not in the same shape as in his youth, he's also not rusty since he continued training and working.

    So we have good ole Silver hair as a benchmark of where Garp should be.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    And all the same, i dont think that mark is high enough to survive a fight with Akainu.
    Had he been in his prime its likely different. But as it is he is just in great shape for his age.
    Thats not enough. Akainu took a beating from Whitebeard, and he were barely winded at the end when Shank's stopped him.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    I assume most on this thread haven't watched Stampede (yet)? I really don't watch OP movies, but this was recommended to me as a sort of Amuse-bouche for the Battle of Wano.

    Non-spoilery take: If battle/s are the selling point, I found it a bit underwhelming, and the animation still felt like the usual subpar OP anime outside Wano. And as if staying true to the source material, the best parts of it are easily not the battles themselves.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    And all the same, i dont think that mark is high enough to survive a fight with Akainu.
    Had he been in his prime its likely different. But as it is he is just in great shape for his age.
    Thats not enough. Akainu took a beating from Whitebeard, and he were barely winded at the end when Shank's stopped him.
    Too be fair whitebeard was about 75% dead at that point. Pretty much nothing but his rage over ace dying was keeping him on his feet. His haki was fading, his strength and durability was fading, he had a hole in his torso, half his face blown off, numerous stab wounds, etc etc etc. You cant really say at that point, "Oh, he took on whitebeard and survived with minor wounds" as its very misleading. As for being barely winded, I think its less being barely winded and more whitebeard was the last guy on the field capable of fighting him. Like how after fighting cracker luffy managed to hammer a ton of big mom trash mobs before being taken down. Even beaten up and tired luffy was just that much stronger than the people he was facing, same for marineford. The commanders were very much so not admiral level and had already taken a pounding and everyone else was utter trash who couldnt do anything to akainu so he was wiping them out.
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    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

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  9. - Top - End - #579
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Too be fair whitebeard was about 75% dead at that point. Pretty much nothing but his rage over ace dying was keeping him on his feet. His haki was fading, his strength and durability was fading, he had a hole in his torso, half his face blown off, numerous stab wounds, etc etc etc. You cant really say at that point, "Oh, he took on whitebeard and survived with minor wounds" as its very misleading. As for being barely winded, I think its less being barely winded and more whitebeard was the last guy on the field capable of fighting him. Like how after fighting cracker luffy managed to hammer a ton of big mom trash mobs before being taken down. Even beaten up and tired luffy was just that much stronger than the people he was facing, same for marineford. The commanders were very much so not admiral level and had already taken a pounding and everyone else was utter trash who couldnt do anything to akainu so he was wiping them out.
    Yeah.. thats kinda thats kinda the point. Its misleading to say "Oh, he took on whitebeard and survived with minor wounds", because what actually happend was that he took on Whitebeard, and wounded him horribly before WB managed to throw him down a ravine. And then he emerged a little later barely looking injured.

    I also do disagree about the commanders. I think it was made kinda clear that Marco was seemingly equal to the admirals.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Yeah.. thats kinda thats kinda the point. Its misleading to say "Oh, he took on whitebeard and survived with minor wounds", because what actually happend was that he took on Whitebeard, and wounded him horribly before WB managed to throw him down a ravine. And then he emerged a little later barely looking injured.

    I also do disagree about the commanders. I think it was made kinda clear that Marco was seemingly equal to the admirals.
    Was that before or after garp cold cocked his flaming behind? Im not saying that they couldnt be a real threat together, but they are basically a lot like luffy right now. Yonko Commanders are not Yonko, nor are they admirals. And by this stage in the fight, wasnt marco still partially cuffed by seastone? I cant remember. Either way, the commanders had taken lots of punishment by this point and were hardly fighting at full power when akainu finally dug himself out of the pit he was knocked into. So yeah, admiral stomp time because they were all in good shape while everyone else was tired fighting the regulars and vice admirals and such.
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  11. - Top - End - #581
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Don't forget that Whitebeard was sick and dying even before he showed up at Marineford. Marco was a Doctor and was keeping him as healthy as he could be. The first time we see Whitebeard he's hooked up to machines.

    The man was a monster. Akainu was almost killed by him even in his weak and feeble form. He fought Akainu one handed and he was on the ropes. Whitebeard even tanked being punched through the stomach. While on fire.

  12. - Top - End - #582
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Was that before or after garp cold cocked his flaming behind? Im not saying that they couldnt be a real threat together, but they are basically a lot like luffy right now. Yonko Commanders are not Yonko, nor are they admirals. And by this stage in the fight, wasnt marco still partially cuffed by seastone? I cant remember. Either way, the commanders had taken lots of punishment by this point and were hardly fighting at full power when akainu finally dug himself out of the pit he was knocked into. So yeah, admiral stomp time because they were all in good shape while everyone else was tired fighting the regulars and vice admirals and such.
    So.. a surprise attack from Garp can knock Marco out of course? What exactly is that suposed to show or proof?
    And your consistently missing or ignoring the point im making. That while everyone else had been fighting mostly Marine chaff,
    then Aikanu had mostly been fighting Whitebeard.
    Or are your point that fighting with Whitebeard is the easy option, compared to dueling a random mix of marine infantry and low level officers?
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  13. - Top - End - #583
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    2. He physically hits Logia users. You can only do that with Armament Haki. It was before Oda was drawing it with color to mark its use, but the effects are tangible and in evidence.
    Nope, you can physically hit Logia just fine as long as you have the type advantage, like Luffy the rubber man could hit thunder man.

    You know, the very first logia fight in the series.

    Whitebeard being earth elemental thus could harm fire/lava logia. Oda even draws whitebeard's earthquake shockwaves when hitting lava man that are the exact same that appear when he's doing normal earthquakes.

    Plus again everybody and their mother easily making whitebeard bleed when haki would make bullets and blades shatter on his chest. Or conqueror's haki would've allowed whitebeard to just make all the marine mooks faint right away. Or he would've been dodging all the attacks matrix style instead of going all "oops there seems to be a sword stuck in my stomach now".

    Or better yet, Whitebeard would've just predicted "Ace's dead no matter what we do, so meh I'll go do something else besides suicidical charge into the Marine trap that ends with my power being stolen by an evil pirate."
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-09-24 at 09:30 AM.
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    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  14. - Top - End - #584
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Nope, you can physically hit Logia just fine as long as you have the type advantage, like Luffy the rubber man could hit thunder man.

    You know, the very first logia fight in the series.

    Whitebeard being earth elemental thus could harm fire/lava logia. Oda even draws whitebeard's earthquake shockwaves when hitting lava man that are the exact same that appear when he's doing normal earthquakes.

    Plus again everybody and their mother easily making whitebeard bleed when haki would make bullets and blades shatter on his chest. Or conqueror's haki would've allowed whitebeard to just make all the marine mooks faint right away. Or he would've been dodging all the attacks matrix style instead of going all "oops there seems to be a sword stuck in my stomach now".

    Or better yet, Whitebeard would've just predicted "Ace's dead no matter what we do, so meh I'll go do something else besides suicidical charge into the Marine trap that ends with my power being stolen by an evil pirate."
    Okay so, everything you just said is wrong.

    Crocodile is the first Logia fought, he has the Sand-Sand fruit. Whitebeard is NOT an earth man, he is an earthquake man. That's signifigently different. Luffy is made of rubber, Whitebeard is made of "the rumbling tectonic shifts of the earth" and not earth itself. His moves hitting Akinua (sic on my part) are not due to elemental advantage but raw difference in strength.

    Whitebeard not using Haki to shield himself has two possible explanations, neither of which are contradictory: he either can't risk using a lot of haki due to his sickness, or he genuinely feels he does not need haki to endure these attacks. Given he also has half of his face punched off by the Magma Fist, we can presume that both are true. And the sword that impaled him in the stomach was done by one of his allies betraying him, a thing Whitebeard would never think possible.

    No one could have predicted what Blackbeard did, and Whitebeard dying to inspire the next generation is explicitly a thing he would do by how his character has been presented.


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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Another thing i feel should be pointed out, is that armoring your entire body in Armament Haki,
    has so far been presented as a special technique. Only shown by a single person in the entire serie.
    Everyone else settle for sheething whatever it is they attack/block with.

    Also equally relevant, is that Whitebeard likely didnt expect to survive that fight.
    I think staying behind to cover the retreat were his plan from the start.
    Last edited by lord_khaine; 2019-09-24 at 11:23 AM.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post

    Whitebeard not using Haki to shield himself has two possible explanations

    Haki was retcon after the timeskip.


    If you're trying to connect logical dots between pre/post timeskip you're going to have a bad time.


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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by ellenate View Post
    Haki was retcon after the timeskip.


    If you're trying to connect logical dots between pre/post timeskip you're going to have a bad time.
    No it wasn't.


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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    No it wasn't.

    Yes it was.


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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Haki was introduced prior to the time skip so no, no it was not.


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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Haki was introduced prior to the time skip so no, no it was not.

    Most things that are retconned, do typically exist before said retcon happens... so what's your point?


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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by ellenate View Post
    Most things that are retconned, do typically exist before said retcon happens... so what's your point?
    Okay please explain what you mean by "haki was retcon" then because I have no idea what you're going on about now.


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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    It was kinda confusingly said. But as such it is partially correct.
    The way Haki works were exposed to a soft retcon of sorts.
    Before the timeskip it was a much more mystical, barely understood power.

    Who likely in part were created initially just to be a way for normal people to combat Logia users.

    And after the timeskip it then became a more clearly defined. The next upgrade tree/path for the monster trio so to speak.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    That's... not a retcon folks. That's Reyleigh being obtuse because they're not skilled enough to know the details yet. You don't start explaining quantum physics, you start with addition and subtraction.


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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Haki first comes up after the intro in Water 7, when Sanji uses armament and Zoro uses Conquerers. Then Garp uses armament to hit luffy. The explanations don't come up for several arcs.

    Forgot skypeia had Mantra. So it comes up immediately after alabasta.
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2019-09-24 at 03:16 PM.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    That's Reyleigh being obtuse because they're not skilled enough to know the details yet. You don't start explaining quantum physics, you start with addition and subtraction.
    HxH does something similar with Nen, so you could say that's what Oda was doing here, but character behaviors contradict that idea.

    One of the hardest things to ignore...

    Logias in pre, acting surprised, when hit. (not referring to enel.) Blackbeard exchange with ace is one of the more damning examples of something like this. Ace was a high ranking member of one of the largest pirate crews. He should be use to getting hit, with the amount of haki users we've seen so far in new world, but they spoke as if it was impossible.


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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by ellenate View Post
    HxH does something similar with Nen, so you could say that's what Oda was doing here, but character behaviors contradict that idea.

    One of the hardest things to ignore...

    Logias in pre, acting surprised, when hit. (not referring to enel.) Blackbeard exchange with ace is one of the more damning examples of something like this. Ace was a high ranking member of one of the largest pirate crews. He should be use to getting hit, with the amount of haki users we've seen so far in new world, but they spoke as if it was impossible.
    Ace is also a ****ing moron and, importantly, pretty young and cocky as far as pirates go. We don't know what he's experienced.

    And again, he's just an idiot. This is One Piece, "they're just stupid" is a viable response in most cases but especially here.

    Also as just an aside, the fact that Teach is hitting him WITHOUT using Haki is ALSO a thing. He was canceling out his ability with darkness, which is also a pretty significant, and surprising, thing.

    As for the other Logia we've seen in pre-time skip? We've seen... whomstd've, again? Ace (idiot), Crocodile (hanging out in a place where few people would have it and none would know it implicitly), the three Admirals (all of whom express surprise only in that someone as weak as our heroes can stand against them for half a second) and Enel (culturally unaware it was even possible). Who else have we seen that's a Logia that was surprised about getting hit?

    I'm asking this genuinely I don't remember but I'm pretty sure that's all of em, and each one is covered!

    @TVTyrant: It actually shows up in Chapter 1, given Shank's use of the Emperor's Haki to scare off that Sea King.
    Last edited by LaZodiac; 2019-09-24 at 03:52 PM.


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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Technically, do visuals count as retcon? I'm leaning towards no, but they definitely changed how haki is presented.

    Normal (i.e. not the deflection the admirals did together) armament haki pretimeskip has no blackening effect, and I'm pretty sure the sparks coming off of conqueror haki manifestation weren't in pretimeskip.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    Technically, do visuals count as retcon? I'm leaning towards no, but they definitely changed how haki is presented.

    Normal (i.e. not the deflection the admirals did together) armament haki pretimeskip has no blackening effect, and I'm pretty sure the sparks coming off of conqueror haki manifestation weren't in pretimeskip.
    I don't recall there being any sparks in now-times Emperor's Haki, but I know the anime makes it more flashy so that might be part of the confusion.

    I would not say it's a retcon. I'd say it's a case of the series saying "you know what they're doing now, since you've been taught, so you can recognize it now". So an artistic thing, more than anything else. I think we'd have to look over things again to be sure, but I feel like the only time the "going black" is even mentioned is when Luffy does it (which makes sense he's vulcanizing the rubber in his body, which makes it black temporarily) and with the legendary grade swords absorbing it and becoming black-stained over time.

    And even if they are actually turning black, I'd have to imagine it's a literal version of the artistic flair. Once you're aware of Haki, you can see it happening and being used.
    Last edited by LaZodiac; 2019-09-24 at 04:10 PM.


    Corvo-Zodi by Cuthalion. I'm not a murderer, I'm a good person! *kills everyone*
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  29. - Top - End - #599
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    lord_khaine's Avatar

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    That's... not a retcon folks. That's Reyleigh being obtuse because they're not skilled enough to know the details yet. You don't start explaining quantum physics, you start with addition and subtraction.
    No, that Reyleigh is just keeping things simple would be able to explain things if he was the only master-level Haki user we encountered before the time skip.
    But he isnt. We see a very large selection of people who should have mastered it to one degree of another.

    And there are just a lot of small inconsistencies that makes a lot more sense if one accept that there were a soft retcon of how Haki works.
    Ignoring for a moment all the issue's with Whitebeards fight, then to start i think its clear that Haki is something that was reconned into the world.
    There are to many people who should have known about it that didnt show anything in that regard.

    We also got at least 1 straight up example of haki use being different before and after the timeskip.
    Before the timeskip, the use of Haki was invisible. After, it got its trademark black effect.
    That is visible, according to Mihawks comment in chapter 779.
    So, we already got 1 thing that got retconned. Would it not make more sense to assume there were more changes?
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  30. - Top - End - #600
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    No, that Reyleigh is just keeping things simple would be able to explain things if he was the only master-level Haki user we encountered before the time skip.
    But he isnt. We see a very large selection of people who should have mastered it to one degree of another.

    And there are just a lot of small inconsistencies that makes a lot more sense if one accept that there were a soft retcon of how Haki works.
    Ignoring for a moment all the issue's with Whitebeards fight, then to start i think its clear that Haki is something that was reconned into the world.
    There are to many people who should have known about it that didnt show anything in that regard.

    We also got at least 1 straight up example of haki use being different before and after the timeskip.
    Before the timeskip, the use of Haki was invisible. After, it got its trademark black effect.
    That is visible, according to Mihawks comment in chapter 779.
    So, we already got 1 thing that got retconned. Would it not make more sense to assume there were more changes?
    Rayleight explaining to everyone how haki works in a more casual sense to ease them into it is false because... why, exactly? I don't understand what you're saying here.

    After the timeskip we were also let in more in-detail to what it is. As I said in my last post, it being visible is likely a case of "we are ABLE to see it now" and not a case of it not being visible and then suddenly being visible.

    And who should know about Haki that doesn't show it?

    And again, please, as just a common courtesy if nothing else, include who you're quoting when you quote people. It's literally on be default you're making more work for yourself by removing who you're actually responding too.
    Last edited by LaZodiac; 2019-09-24 at 04:19 PM.


    Corvo-Zodi by Cuthalion. I'm not a murderer, I'm a good person! *kills everyone*
    Sig Banner by Pinkhaired August. No Regrets.

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