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    Default One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Yes! Its thread 6 of the now biggest and longest running manga.
    And since we reached 51 pages without a title i think we better get started voting on one now.
    Else the current one will stick :P

    Previous Threads.
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    One-Piece-II-Piece-Red-Piece-Blue-Piece
    One Piece III: Cups!
    One Piece: Gear IV
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    Last edited by lord_khaine; 2019-02-22 at 06:53 PM.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: -title underway-

    Wano Piece
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: -title underway-

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Wano Piece
    This one. It has my sword, and my sword, and my sword.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: -title underway-

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Wano Piece
    Thread title!

    Excited to see what happens next, honestly.


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    Default Re: One Piece VI: -title underway-

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Wano Piece
    Yep, clear favorite there.

    On the most recent chapter:

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    Now that they mention it, it really is weird that Big Mom's sentient hat hasn't said anything at all in light of her apparent amnesia. Could it be she's faking it all to fool the Straw Hats into helping her infiltrate Wano and lead her to Luffy? Because that'd be hilarious!

    Also, Robin is the perfect spy! Which makes sense considering both her background as top agent in a secret organization and her powers, which are just ridiculously useful for spywork.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Well, Wano Piece it is then. Or did people mean just Wano Piece VI?

    Anyway, picking up from earlier.
    Yeah I agree its probably a bit soon to give luffy another power boost, although, the sheer way he was pushed to grow stronger over the course of his katakuri fight might mean that he is now somewhere in between the two ranks normally. Not a yonko, but also stronger than their commanders. But yeah, thats why I threw in that "Time for his crew to step up" possibility. I mean lets face it, zoro especially has never really been far behind luffy and post timeskip their relative levels are kinda hard to judge. So getting the chance to make him officially yonko commander level as well would make sense. As would getting a solid bump for sanji.
    I dont think we can say that Luffy were pushed past the Yonko commander level in that fight.
    They more or less collapsed at the same time. Luffy just had more at stake in the fight.
    For him it was a question of his life, as well as getting reunited with his crew.

    For Dogtooth the real stake were a repupation that had grown to be a burden for him.

    On the subject of people on that scale of ass kicking. I wonder if Shanks has regained the ability to fight on that level, if he couldnít at least put up a serious fight on the Yonko scale Iím certain they would have made a move on him by now but you never know. Also I find it kind of strange in retrospect that someone on that level lost an arm to an oversized eel with delusions of grandeur over Luffy.
    That has been debated intensely.
    I think the likeliest explanation is that being so early in the story, Oda did not yet have a clear vision of the endgame.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Well, Wano Piece it is then. Or did people mean just Wano Piece VI?

    Anyway, picking up from earlier.


    I dont think we can say that Luffy were pushed past the Yonko commander level in that fight.
    They more or less collapsed at the same time. Luffy just had more at stake in the fight.
    For him it was a question of his life, as well as getting reunited with his crew.

    For Dogtooth the real stake were a repupation that had grown to be a burden for him.



    That has been debated intensely.
    I think the likeliest explanation is that being so early in the story, Oda did not yet have a clear vision of the endgame.
    Thats true, but keep in mind this was not a short fight and luffy was getting his bouncy butt handed to him pretty much the entire freaking time. Even when he activated his snake man version it basically put him on par with katakuri.... after he had spent the last lord knows how long being beaten until he could make Rocky go "Yo Luffy uhhh, maybe you should just stay down!" So most of katakuris damage to that point was stamina loss from pounding luffy from one side of the mirror world to the other with luffy sometimes managing to sneak a solid hit in. Luffy managing to move from that HUGE deficit and squeak his win in the end shows a rather significant jump in power and skill from the start of the fight. Enough so that imo, going into the fight with what he knows now, he would have walked away, battered, bruised, bloody, but on his own two feet. Similar to how he was after the cracker fight. SUUUUPER tough fight still, not claiming he takes it with a walk, but he takes it with enough energy to stumble his way out rather than collapsing into a heap. Im talking end of rocky 4, not end of rocky 2. Full number of rounds, horrible damage sucked up, but in the end, luffy is the clear and decisive winner.

    As to that counting him above commander level, honestly that depends on how the various yonko commanders stack up on the power scale. Im assuming katakuri is overall one of the strongest amongst all the various yonko commanders, but I could be wrong. If kaidos top guys are stronger than katakuri then I would place luffy firmly commander level. If he beat the number 1 commander amongst the yonko, (And imo could do it again, somewhat easier next time) then I think he deserves to be put somewhere between commander and yonko. He is very much so NOT a yonko level fighter yet. Thats a pretty freaking big gap in power after all. But if he is stronger than the best commander, then he cant really be considered that level either.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post

    That has been debated intensely.
    I think the likeliest explanation is that being so early in the story, Oda did not yet have a clear vision of the endgame.
    Given that the Eel was run off with what we no know was Conqueror's Haki, I'm not certain that explanation really holds up all that well.



    I was under the impression the Eel and Shanks arm was an editorial Mandate at a time in Oda's career were he didn't command the pull yet to just tell the editor "No, that will actively interfere with the long game plan for that character.". That the editor decided the stakes weren't shown well enough and weren't high enough to interest the Audience unless someone the audience was suppose to be rooting for either died or was maimed and insisted on it, possibly threatening not to publish the book if they didn't get that change to the original run down. Is that not the case?


    Also, honestly, there are several ways I could see Shanks getting that arm fixed/replaced based on what we've seen now. Sure, most if not all of them might not have been readily accessible too him, but he's a Yonko, at least a couple of them should have been viable. (Ivankov, Law and Mansherry all have Devil Fruits that seem like they'd enable the user to fix such a thing for someone else with fairly minimal difficulty. And if none of them were people Shanks could have gotten to do that for him till recently, well, there sorta allied with Luffy now, I can totally see Luffy calling in a favor or something with one or more of them to do that for Shanks as a thank you too Shanks.

    And even with out that, evidently Cyborg Arms aren't that hard to get ahold of if Kidd and Franky have them with out Yonko resources. All Shanks would likely want is a basic model that can match it's counterpart for speed and strength and staying power. Hell, Maybe when they get past Kaido and Big Mom and meet Shanks, Luffy Orders Franky to make one for Shanks?)





    Also, as to the idea that the next step isn't for Luffy to get his game up more, but for The Crew to get there game up more, I kinda think at this stage it's going to need to be both. Luffy wants and needs to meet Shanks on an even footing or not at all. And he's got to get up to a level were he can deal with Akinue, Blackbeard and the Gorosei (and we don't know what they can do but I'd not be taken off guard to find out there all at least at Admiral Level.) at various points. Maybe he won't have to deal with all of them himself, certainly not at once, but he's going to have to deal with at least one or two of them himself.

    If he can't take Big Mom OR Kaido, by himself, on an even keel, he's not up to snuff enough for that yet. And since he's not strong enough to do that yet, I think he might need another power increase of some manner. Personally my money is one or more of the following.

    1: Last time he achived the highest level of Observation Haki. Now he's got to not only master that the rest of the way, but do so with either Armament or Conqueror's Haki.

    2: He's going to meet someone who knows how to Awaken his Devil Fruit.

    3: He's going to meet someone who can truly teach him to master The Voice Of All Things.


    That said, there are 2 Yonko and 4 Yonko Commanders running around Wano right now. Luffy beating 1 would show a substantive increase. I think the Crew is going to have to get there game up to beat the rest. And really, based on what we've seen, that'd make sense. Even a Yonko's core Crew are pretty much always monsters, let alone the core crew of The King Of The Pirates, Luffy's goal. Hell, he said all the way back when Zorro first joined that a King should want and have nothing less than the very best for there crew.

    Shanks Core Crew was something he felt comfortable challenging The Blackbear Pirates, Anyone form White Beards division commanders who was still standing, anyone from The 7 Warlords who was still standing, And most of all Anyone From The Navy insistent on keeping up a fight with. Just his core crew.

    I think it would be fitting if they had to get there game up. Zorro, Sanji and Jembei getting to Yonko Commander Level, and everyone else getting up to 7 Warlords Levels.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Nami just needs a robot body to hide in, for sheer destruction she is only behind the monster 4. She is, in fact, the only member to injure a yonko. The glassest of cannons.

    Franky is probably the furthest ahead after the monster 4. He was a match for pre-gear Luffy back in the day, and crushed three members of Doffy's crew (two at once, then the last while hamstringing himself.) He could likely beat one of the weaker warlords now.

    I don't think Ussop is going to get there at all.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    As to that counting him above commander level, honestly that depends on how the various yonko commanders stack up on the power scale. Im assuming katakuri is overall one of the strongest amongst all the various yonko commanders, but I could be wrong. If kaidos top guys are stronger than katakuri then I would place luffy firmly commander level. If he beat the number 1 commander amongst the yonko, (And imo could do it again, somewhat easier next time) then I think he deserves to be put somewhere between commander and yonko. He is very much so NOT a yonko level fighter yet. Thats a pretty freaking big gap in power after all. But if he is stronger than the best commander, then he cant really be considered that level either.
    Even with the lowest bounty shown amongs yonkou commanders, Cracker still managed to put up a difficult fight against Luffy. Luffy arguably would have even lost if it weren't for Nami helping him. While keeping in mind that bounty alone isn't a measure of strength, it's still important to note that nobody in the Big Mom Pirates except Katakuri had crossed the billion berry mark while even Kaido's 3rd commander did. Shank's crew managed to stop Kaido from going to Marineford and on the possibility that it's through combat, it might reflect how his commanders stack up against Kaido's. Then we have Whitebeard's commanders Marco, Jozu, and Vista, who were powerful enough to actually square up against admirals and/or Mihawk, but not powerful enough to secure the win. Taking those into account, I'd place Luffy at commander level, but somewhere within the bottom half of the list at best.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Nami just needs a robot body to hide in, for sheer destruction she is only behind the monster 4. She is, in fact, the only member to injure a yonko. The glassest of cannons.

    Franky is probably the furthest ahead after the monster 4. He was a match for pre-gear Luffy back in the day, and crushed three members of Doffy's crew (two at once, then the last while hamstringing himself.) He could likely beat one of the weaker warlords now.

    I don't think Ussop is going to get there at all.
    Possibly. A another idea I've seen is she might wind up landing the Snow Snow fruit since her oranges might have been the closest fruit on Punk Hazard for it to Remanifest with. And if we combo that with her getting good at Observation Haki, which I suspect would play well with her strengths, she could pull something similar to Katakuri's defense, which would I suspect get her up there enough to be a real force to be reckoned with, even against an armament Haki user. Probably even enough to be called a Warlord level threat.


    I agree Franky is also getting up there as well. He might even BE fighting at Warlord Level in the Franky Shogun mecha. I don't think we've actually seen what that thing can do going full out. And heck, I'd not be surprised if he made an upgrade using the other extra vehicles for the sunny. Maybe made an extra upgrade to make all the vehicles come to him so he can form the Mecha with them on the fly instead of needing to be near The Sunny for that trick. After that, something to allow him to tag Logia's so that Logia's aren't an "I Win" button against him right out the gate, it has to be an actual fight, and I think with that he's at Warlord Level, or very close too it.


    I disagree with Usopp never getting there. I think he's just got to get a handle on his Observation Haki and maybe get some better ammo. I seem to recall it was Zorro who observed he was taking out Navy Commanders and Captains at Enni's Lobby, he just didn't notice cause everyone else was doing as well or better among his crew mates.

    Give him a way for his ammo to tag Logia types and a few round types that can generally punch through passive Armament Haki defense, and let him get his Observation Haki up to a meaningful level. I think he could even do this stuff at Wano. And even if he's only at low tier Warlord level, Never as Strong as Doffy or Mihawk or Handcock, he's part of the core crew of The King Of The Pirates. He ought to be able to at least go toe to toe with someone like Moria or Crocodile on his own and have that be an actual fight.
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    My money says he does it, and while he won't beat Big Mom, he will do something substantive. Keep her busy long enough that she looses out on an objective or defeat Smoothie or something. Something, that in turn, will get a lot of witnesses and word of which will get back too Elbaf before The Straw Hats get there. That God Usopp did whatever amazing thing against The Big Mom Pirates, there hated but powerful enemy.

    And combo'd with Harjin's (Or however his name was spelled, the giant from Dressrosa) and the 2 giants from Enni's Lobby's various testimonies too his valor and prowess in battle (exaggerated, comically, as those are.), he's going to be in for a genuinely massive warm welcome.

    And if we assume he manages something in Wano against Big Mom, some major victory of some nature, well, he'll have actually earned it for a change.




    Robin, is harder. I honestly feel like unless she's been holding out too a nonsensical level on what she learned to do when she was hanging with The Revolutionary Army during The Timeskip, the chance to show her really improving in a way that could get her up to Warlord Level has been missed.

    Chopper might be the same, though at least in his case, awakening his fruit could prove to be a short cut on that one.

    Brook, may HAVE awakened his fruit, so, maybe it's time he finally learned to use Haki? He is among other things a Swordsman, and in the land of swordsmen after all. Would be cool if he got his game up there.

    Carrot, honestly, I think that's going to be a 2 parter. Haki, and figuring out how to tap Sulong when the moon isn't full. Maybe some kind of Gizmo to trick her body into thinking shes looking at a full moon? I could see any combo of Franky, Chopper and Usopp (Or potentially any one of the 3.), figuring out how to do that. And add in some Tutoring form Sanji or Jembei or Zorro during down time after a Haki Awakening, well, she's there I suspect. Haki wielding Sulong form is certainly hitting at a Warlords level.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    My thoughts on the Eel have always been explained in that people in One piece don't just have super invulnereability to stuff. Unless you have a devil fruit that's always passive, or are coating yourself in Haki. The stuff that can hurt a regular person can hurt or injure you. It explains most of what we've seen with injuries in One piece.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Unfortunately by that logic, a lot of stuff still doesn't work though. For starters, loosing that arm would have been a career ending wound for Shanks if that was so, and Whitebeard should have been dropped almost immediately by Squard's (or however his name is spelled.) betrayal and disemboweling. And Zorro and Sanji should have lost a LOT more fights than they have canonically.


    And even if that was the Case, Shanks is a Yonko, he should have had the reflexes to actively defend. Raylee basically said if you can't do that you can't hope to survive in The New World, Let Alone be a success story to the Level a Yonko is. It still doesn't fit.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Yeah I agree its probably a bit soon to give luffy another power boost, although, the sheer way he was pushed to grow stronger over the course of his katakuri fight might mean that he is now somewhere in between the two ranks normally. Not a yonko, but also stronger than their commanders. But yeah, thats why I threw in that "Time for his crew to step up" possibility. I mean lets face it, zoro especially has never really been far behind luffy and post timeskip their relative levels are kinda hard to judge. So getting the chance to make him officially yonko commander level as well would make sense. As would getting a solid bump for sanji.
    For Zoro, it's more like he needs a chance to show how strong he really is post-timeskip, as he hasn't really had a full fight against any challenging opponent so far. The closest he came was his brief encounter with Fujitora, which was too short for any meaningful measure other than that his attacks can at least give an admiral pause. But other than that: He didn't even remotely take Hyouzou seriously on Fishman Island and in fact had totally outclassed his boss Hody before that, Monet on Punk Hazard outright admitted he was too strong for her, Pika spent his entire fight essentially running away from Zoro, couldn't land a single hit on him and went down like a punk when finally forced to square off directly. Hawkins did manage to actually get a hit on him with his weird powers but it cost him a number of lives to do so.

    So, the question is - who's the strongest Swordsman Kaidou has to offer? King does appear to have a sword but we have not yet seen him wield it. Jack was already worfed by Shutenmaru, so beating him wouldn't be that impressive.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    Unfortunately by that logic, a lot of stuff still doesn't work though. For starters, loosing that arm would have been a career ending wound for Shanks if that was so, and Whitebeard should have been dropped almost immediately by Squard's (or however his name is spelled.) betrayal and disemboweling. And Zorro and Sanji should have lost a LOT more fights than they have canonically.


    And even if that was the Case, Shanks is a Yonko, he should have had the reflexes to actively defend. Raylee basically said if you can't do that you can't hope to survive in The New World, Let Alone be a success story to the Level a Yonko is. It still doesn't fit.
    Nobody pays attention all the time. He was more focused on protecting Luffy than he was at defending against the creature.

    How many times in stories do we see people who could easily pull someone out of the way of an oncoming car having both survive. But instead the person pushes the other and dies even though we know they could have gotten both safe. That's simply how stories are told sometimes.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Given that the Eel was run off with what we no know was Conqueror's Haki, I'm not certain that explanation really holds up all that well.
    Yes we know its Conquerors Haki now. But the important question is, was it Conquerors Haki back there in chapter one, or was it just regular intimidation?
    And it was first several years later, that we even got hints of Armament Haki.

    So, the question is - who's the strongest Swordsman Kaidou has to offer? King does appear to have a sword but we have not yet seen him wield it. Jack was already worfed by Shutenmaru, so beating him wouldn't be that impressive.
    Well.. it is not unlikely that Zorro will end fighting King. There are plenty of other opponents for Luffy to fight.
    Honestly though. Its almost getting stale how Zorro always fight someone with a sword.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of the Helms View Post
    So, the question is - who's the strongest Swordsman Kaidou has to offer? King does appear to have a sword but we have not yet seen him wield it. Jack was already worfed by Shutenmaru, so beating him wouldn't be that impressive.
    If Oda is intent on pitting Luffy against Kaidou, with or without help from Big Mom or the other supernova captains, then King would be the most appropriate choice. It would be quite a difficult fight though if Zoro can't overcome King's aerial mobility. Otherwise, X Drake is another swordsman to pit against Zoro. Kyoushiro looks like a formidable swordsman, but this chapter suggests that he may not be exactly on Kaido's side.

    Speaking of Zoro, can we address that kiai shout reveal? Why would it be forbidden? It makes sense if Zoro learned it from Ryuma who's old enough to speak in that ancient Kuri dialect, but it would be interesting if he learned from Kuina or her father.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    If Oda is intent on pitting Luffy against Kaidou, with or without help from Big Mom or the other supernova captains, then King would be the most appropriate choice. It would be quite a difficult fight though if Zoro can't overcome King's aerial mobility. Otherwise, X Drake is another swordsman to pit against Zoro. Kyoushiro looks like a formidable swordsman, but this chapter suggests that he may not be exactly on Kaido's side.
    Well.. i think the Pika Fight showed that being up high in the sky is not a safe position if your hunted by Zorro? :P

    Speaking of Zoro, can we address that kiai shout reveal? Why would it be forbidden? It makes sense if Zoro learned it from Ryuma who's old enough to speak in that ancient Kuri dialect, but it would be interesting if he learned from Kuina or her father.
    I already brushed on this.
    And i think the more likely explanation is Zorro is descending from Wano immigrants.
    That would explain why he spoke an old Kuri dialect. And it would be like Zorro to teach a kid to shout **** as a warcry.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Yes we know its Conquerors Haki now. But the important question is, was it Conquerors Haki back there in chapter one, or was it just regular intimidation?
    And it was first several years later, that we even got hints of Armament Haki.



    Well.. it is not unlikely that Zorro will end fighting King. There are plenty of other opponents for Luffy to fight.
    Honestly though. Its almost getting stale how Zorro always fight someone with a sword.
    Well, his ambition is to be the world's greatest swordsman, which obviously you can prove best by beating other swordsmen. But actually, he's had four conclusive fights post-timeskip, and only one of them was against a a swordsman (Hyouzou). Hody's weapon was a trident when he faced Zoro, Monet was using an icepick and Logia Powers, Pika technically had an oversized sword but only traded one blow with Zoro before reverting to using his devil fruit and tried to finish the fight with a body slam. Other than that, it's really only Fujitora who can be called a Swordsman(and that was hardly enough to be considered a "fight"). Unless you're willing to consider Hawkins a Swordsman with his weird straw blade that summons a giant scarecrow, which I think would be stretching it...
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Yes we know its Conquerors Haki now. But the important question is, was it Conquerors Haki back there in chapter one, or was it just regular intimidation?
    And it was first several years later, that we even got hints of Armament Haki.
    That depends.


    If what I've heard, that I initially mentioned, is true, that it was editorial interference? That Shanks only lost an arm cause the Editor wouldn't publish the series with out that too "raise the stakes" right out the gate? That that strongly suggests yes, it was, in fact, Conquerors' Haki at the time, and known by Oda to be so. (After all, he's certainly not shy about doing dark or upsetting things in character backstory's as we've seen with the overwhelming majority of protagonist and a rather noticeable number of antagonist backstory's. Over the series, even as early on as East Blue Saga.).


    If it's not at all true, then ok, it's viable that Oda just wasn't thinking that far ahead. Course, the man is famous of planning hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of chapters ahead, so, that also makes me more likely to buy the editorial interference theory.




    As for Zorro's big final showdown for the Arc.

    Well, here's a thought that would keep it mostly equal.

    What if Luffy does fight Kaido, but while Luffy is Dueling Kaido, Zorro duels Big Mom? Showing that both of them are on mostly even footing and capable of fighting at Yonko level?

    Added bonus, most of the Big Mom/Zorro fight doesn't have to have a particularly high level of grit or beating on one another, cause there clashing with distance attacks and Haki and Blades, until one final decisive Strike get's through, and then it's over. And Oda can opt to not show the body in a similar manner to what he did with Pound and some other characters over the series run, instead perhaps focusing on the crew members she's brought reacting to Big Mom's final fall.

    And that can be off set with the Grit and Pummeling fest that is Kaido and Luffy beating each other every possible Shade of Purple while Zorro and Big Mom are fighting.


    Doesn't even run counter to the Usopp theory I mentioned a few posts ago cause Usopp can still have done something crazy that wound up foiling Big Mom's goal in a meaningful way, it's just that when she tried to rebound from THAT defeat, Zorro tagged in to go head to head with her. Or Usopp, meanwhile, could take out Smoothie. (Hell, she has ranged attacks but her fighting style does some to be more close combat centered based on what we saw in Whole Cake Island of her, and it does involve growing into an Actual Giant Size as a power up as long as she has expendable people within striking range. A Long Distance Sniper could actually be a fighting style that just works well as a hard counter too her to justify it. Sort of like how Nami was a perfect hard counter to Cracker and Usopp was a perfect Hard Counter too Perona before this. Meaning there is precedent for this sort of thing.).

    That would leave Nami or Franky to take out 1 of Kaido's commanders, And Sanji and Jembei to deal with 1 each.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Didnt kaido just flat out one shot luffy when they clashed earlier in the arc? How is there going to be any sort of battle between them without a rather massive upgrade to luffy if any time he gets hit, luffy goes night night? I mean, i suppose I could see something like a long series of keep away where luffy is just taking potshots from long range as much as he can, possibly a pre arranged series of traps and ambushes but thats just a delay game. Maybe luffy could land a few shots if kaido is busy slaughtering literally everyone else dumb enough to fight him and luffy blind sides him? Still dont see how he will do much if any damage to a guy who sky dives from the clouds head first into islands in an attempt to kill himself and ends up with a headache.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    That depends.


    If what I've heard, that I initially mentioned, is true, that it was editorial interference? That Shanks only lost an arm cause the Editor wouldn't publish the series with out that too "raise the stakes" right out the gate? That that strongly suggests yes, it was, in fact, Conquerors' Haki at the time, and known by Oda to be so. (After all, he's certainly not shy about doing dark or upsetting things in character backstory's as we've seen with the overwhelming majority of protagonist and a rather noticeable number of antagonist backstory's. Over the series, even as early on as East Blue Saga.).


    If it's not at all true, then ok, it's viable that Oda just wasn't thinking that far ahead. Course, the man is famous of planning hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of chapters ahead, so, that also makes me more likely to buy the editorial interference theory.
    Hmm.. no, why should there be correlation between editorial mandate that Shanks lose an arm.
    And the difference between Shanks using Haki, and Shanks just straight up being so intimidating that he can scare a sea monster away?
    Those are completely seperate events. Its not unlikely some idiot editor decided he had to lose an arm. But if we ignore that, then whats left is Shanks glaring at the sea monster to make it run.
    As well as the question, was that Haki or regular intimidation back then?

    Didnt kaido just flat out one shot luffy when they clashed earlier in the arc? How is there going to be any sort of battle between them without a rather massive upgrade to luffy if any time he gets hit, luffy goes night night? I mean, i suppose I could see something like a long series of keep away where luffy is just taking potshots from long range as much as he can, possibly a pre arranged series of traps and ambushes but thats just a delay game. Maybe luffy could land a few shots if kaido is busy slaughtering literally everyone else dumb enough to fight him and luffy blind sides him? Still dont see how he will do much if any damage to a guy who sky dives from the clouds head first into islands in an attempt to kill himself and ends up with a headache.
    Yeah Kaido did show that compared to him Luffy were still just a young punk.
    I am putting my own money on Big Mom Fighting Kaido.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    The only possible way I can see an actual fight happening is if kaido and big mom have it out and kaido takes some serious damage during their fight. Enough to slow him down and tire him out at least so luffy doesnt just get casually roflstomped when he makes his move. As an example, kaido takes a few wounds, which means luffy still cant hurt him normally, but if he starts targeting those spots big mom hurt, he can cause more pain. Other than that, luffy needs some sort of upgrade to at least make it less of a curb stomping. A new form, he figures out a way to super charge his armament, awakened devil fruit, whatever. As I said, they COULD go the big mom cake route where the entire "battle" is basically running for their lives and trying to survive whatever gets thrown at them.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Another option is the Godzille route, where two monsters duke it out among themselves.
    Meanwhile Luffy could for example be beating that snake head guy.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Hmm.. no, why should there be correlation between editorial mandate that Shanks lose an arm.
    And the difference between Shanks using Haki, and Shanks just straight up being so intimidating that he can scare a sea monster away?
    Those are completely seperate events. Its not unlikely some idiot editor decided he had to lose an arm. But if we ignore that, then whats left is Shanks glaring at the sea monster to make it run.
    As well as the question, was that Haki or regular intimidation back then?



    Yeah Kaido did show that compared to him Luffy were still just a young punk.
    I am putting my own money on Big Mom Fighting Kaido.
    I dunno. How far back were they foreshadowing Germa 66 and Whole Cake Island? How many hundreds of chapters between the first foreshadowing and there actually showing up to be plot relevant?

    Then how long between Shanks glaring at the Eel, and the audience having Conquerer's Haki explained too them.

    Is it really so hard to think when you consider that sort of thing, that Shanks was not just giving an intimidating Glare but was, in fact, using Conqueror's Haki, and Oda knew that at the time?







    And as for Luffy vs. Kaido, yeah, MAYBE Big Mom and Kaido brawl first. But here's the thing. that kind of runs heavily counter too the goal Luffy is seeking. He NEEDS to be at a point were he can brawl with a Yonko one on one and mostly fairly, if he's going to ever truly be King of the Pirates, and able to meet Shanks again as at least an equal.

    In Alabaster, Luffy had to have 3 goes at Crocodile (2 were he actually figured out a trick he could use to make Crocodile hurt when he punched him.). It might be that Oda is going to do something similar, were Luffy has to fight Kaido and/or Big Mom repeatedly, and slowly get's stronger and lasts longer each time until the last show down is a grueling slugfest similar to the final showdown with Crocodile, Doffy, Lucci or Katakuri, were it pushes Luffy to and past his limits, but at last, finally, Luffy scrapes a narrow win.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Guess I should finally tag this thread...

    I'd be pretty disappointed if Luffy got a sudden upgrade to put him at Yonko Level after Kaido destroyed him like that just shortly ago. I feel like Oda's message is, Yonko are just on an entirely different Level than anyone else. I don't want to reignite the Whitebeard discussion but... well, he didn't go down easily.
    Not that it would be entirely unreasonable for Luffy to win by power-up. Oda is good at mixing up the (battle) narrative, though.
    Since leaving East Blue (where Luffy beat most potents rather easily)
    - lost pretty badly to Crocodile before figuring out his weakness then winning closely
    - beating Enel because of his type advantage
    - got demolished by the CP9 before getting his Gear then winning closely
    - beat Moria with a huge Team effort / temporary power-up winning closely
    - got destroyed after passing Redline (again), then barely beating Magellan and taking part in Marinefort between way bigger threats, getting destroyed again, leading to the timeskip
    - destroyed Fishguy utterly
    - beat Cesar pretty easily
    - beat Mingo barely with help
    - beat Dogtooth barely on his own (with some disadvantage), then ran for his life from Mom

    Going by this... he could get some upgrade (in prison) that puts him at the point where he can narrowly win. I mean, it would be a bit weird to have two arcs where he keeps running but he's again up against a Yonko... I feel I would prefer him to not beat Kaido. Yonko are Monsters with years more experience than him. It's fine for him to not be at that Level yet. He's still a Teenager (I think?), he has time to grow.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
    Guess I should finally tag this thread...

    I'd be pretty disappointed if Luffy got a sudden upgrade to put him at Yonko Level after Kaido destroyed him like that just shortly ago. I feel like Oda's message is, Yonko are just on an entirely different Level than anyone else. I don't want to reignite the Whitebeard discussion but... well, he didn't go down easily.
    Not that it would be entirely unreasonable for Luffy to win by power-up. Oda is good at mixing up the (battle) narrative, though.
    Since leaving East Blue (where Luffy beat most potents rather easily)
    - lost pretty badly to Crocodile before figuring out his weakness then winning closely
    - beating Enel because of his type advantage
    - got demolished by the CP9 before getting his Gear then winning closely
    - beat Moria with a huge Team effort / temporary power-up winning closely
    - got destroyed after passing Redline (again), then barely beating Magellan and taking part in Marinefort between way bigger threats, getting destroyed again, leading to the timeskip
    - destroyed Fishguy utterly
    - beat Cesar pretty easily
    - beat Mingo barely with help
    - beat Dogtooth barely on his own (with some disadvantage), then ran for his life from Mom

    Going by this... he could get some upgrade (in prison) that puts him at the point where he can narrowly win. I mean, it would be a bit weird to have two arcs where he keeps running but he's again up against a Yonko... I feel I would prefer him to not beat Kaido. Yonko are Monsters with years more experience than him. It's fine for him to not be at that Level yet. He's still a Teenager (I think?), he has time to grow.
    Perhaps, but a counter point too that.

    1: Author says were past the 80% mark of the story, probably coming up on the 85% mark. There's not all that much time too the story before its over. And he's GOT to be able to

    Meet Shanks, a Yonko, as an equal or very close too it (A personal goal.),

    Defeat Blackbeard (Case we KNOW that fight is coming and close too the end.)

    And likely be able to beat Akinue, whom isn't going to let someone have found the One Piece and defeated a Yonko (Black Beard.) unopposed. Can't have anyone getting the idea that there really is a new King Of The Pirates now after all, gotta put that down.

    All that and less then 20% of the story left to do it with. I'd say at least SOME of it has to happen during Wano. Probably using Kaido and/or Big Mom as the stepping stone.



    2: There ARE ways that can happen sensibly. Maybe either in Prison of after a break out, he figures out how to REALLY, actively use, The Voice Of All Things. Combined with what he learned against Katakuri, that let's him be WAY better at just NOT getting hit in the first place next time he fights Kaido. Or maybe he learns, finally, how to Awaken his Gum Gum Fruit, and masters that. (Maybe he meets someone or finds a book form the fruits previous user that passes that knowledge along. We know Shanks found it, and we know his turf was in The New World, it's not that hard to think the last user was in Wano and died, and then it managed to make it's way out to sea and float into Shank's controlled waters.). Or maybe he repeats what he did with Katakuri, were he uses the experience he built up with Doffy and Katakuri and now Kaido and the time to really meditate on what Reyliegh was teaching him about Armament Haki, and manages to take that too it's final level, like what he did with his Observation Haki against Katakuri.

    Hell, if you want, you could have two or three more rounds were after every fight with Kaido, it's less lop sided but still lop sided. And after every match, he manages to figure out and unlock something else he'll probably need to handle Akinue and Black Beard and to be even mostly even in his footing with Shanks after The Yonko Saga ends. And it's the last one, the third or forth or even Fifth duel with Kaido that's decisive, in the form of juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuus t barely squeezing out the win. An added thing about the story narrative and world building in favor of this, one of the things the world stresses is that you can ONLY get strong by fighting and surviving fights with and learning from fights with really strong opponents. One's who are hitting at a level so close too yours it'll take everything you've got to beat them, or one's who are stronger than that, and are going to really force you to break your limits to beat them.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    I was watching a video review on the latest chapters and theory crafting on luffy and his power level and he made an interesting point. Luffy is in jail with weakened seaprism cuffs on doing some serious physical exercising. Im expecting a sort of dragonballish outcome here when he gets his cuffs out. Basically, his various gears multiply his base stats, so every bit stronger/faster/tougher he gets while doing this, his gears will be that much stronger as well. Then he brought up the time time fruit and how unlikely it is that it WONT play a part of some sort. Its abilities are still kinda mysterious aside from no going to the past, so he basically suggested its possible there will be a training montage in compressed time. It could make for a seriously dramatic final confrontation. Luffy and crew are still overmatched, luffy gets told, "Here, I can make every minute count as a week for you, train, train hard and fast, and get out here when you are ready" So the rest of the crew are fighting a delaying action, trying to last as long as possible while luffy is grinding as much training as he can get, then reappears just in time, looking way more buff and blah blah blah.

    The other interesting thing he brought up was, everything post time skip with luffy has been haki. Haki this, haki that, haki hit me with a baseball bat. So the idea of luffy training physically is a good one thematically because while zorro has been training to bench press mountains (Or at least large hills) Luffys entire training for the 2 years was like, 90% haki. So his own physical stats are lagging behind. That again brings us to the "base form" school of thought where a lot of shonen work with "Omg, my shikai is 5x my standard level, bankai is 10x, super saiyen is blah blah blah times my base form" etc etc etc. Even a small to moderate increase in what he can do physically without his gears or haki would translate to a fairly large boost in them. So while it DOES stretch belief that luffy would get much stronger after a couple days hard labor, when you combine it with how the cuffs act as resistance training, him getting at least a modest boost, enough to at least not be a one hit ko against kaido, wouldnt be impossible.
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  29. - Top - End - #29
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
    Guess I should finally tag this thread...

    I'd be pretty disappointed if Luffy got a sudden upgrade to put him at Yonko Level after Kaido destroyed him like that just shortly ago. I feel like Oda's message is, Yonko are just on an entirely different Level than anyone else. I don't want to reignite the Whitebeard discussion but... well, he didn't go down easily.
    Not that it would be entirely unreasonable for Luffy to win by power-up. Oda is good at mixing up the (battle) narrative, though.
    Since leaving East Blue (where Luffy beat most potents rather easily)
    - lost pretty badly to Crocodile before figuring out his weakness then winning closely
    - beating Enel because of his type advantage
    - got demolished by the CP9 before getting his Gear then winning closely
    - beat Moria with a huge Team effort / temporary power-up winning closely
    - got destroyed after passing Redline (again), then barely beating Magellan and taking part in Marinefort between way bigger threats, getting destroyed again, leading to the timeskip
    - destroyed Fishguy utterly
    - beat Cesar pretty easily
    - beat Mingo barely with help
    - beat Dogtooth barely on his own (with some disadvantage), then ran for his life from Mom
    A few notes on this:
    - Luffy's final fight against Croc wasn't all that close; Croc got in two slashes with his poison hook, the rest of the fight was purely him getting pounded by Luffy. Luffy was clearly a better melee combatant than Croc and it showed.
    - The power-up and team effort was against Moria + Zombie Oars and Zombie Oars alone respectively. Luffy beat Moria-without-Oars on his own in the end and it wasn't all that close either.
    - He never did beat Magellan; at best, he temporarily pushed him back with help from Mr. 3. Magellan pre-timeskip was both in a different league from Luffy (not even his strongest attacks could put him down, and offensively he was able to one-shot the Blackbeard pirates) and a very bad matchup in terms of powers (Unarmed combat against a guy coated in deadly venom is a bad, bad idea even without considering Magellan's offensive abilities and insane toughness).
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    I dunno. How far back were they foreshadowing Germa 66 and Whole Cake Island? How many hundreds of chapters between the first foreshadowing and there actually showing up to be plot relevant?

    Then how long between Shanks glaring at the Eel, and the audience having Conquerer's Haki explained too them.

    Is it really so hard to think when you consider that sort of thing, that Shanks was not just giving an intimidating Glare but was, in fact, using Conqueror's Haki, and Oda knew that at the time?
    I could say the same. Is it really so hard to think that in the first chapter of his serie, Oda did not have a complete map of the endgame power ups?
    Because i dont recall any relevant forshadowing of Genma 66, or whole Cake Island.

    Else, besides that i find it slightly unlikely Luffy will leave this arc able to fight a Yonko like a equal.
    To start with, even just 20% of OP is still going to be a around 250 chapters. Thats longer than some manga have run in total.
    If Luffy is buffed to the point where he can fight at Yonko level, then we will get around 5 years of OP where its more or less impossible to challenge Luffy.
    Due to there only being 4-5 people in the world who can take him fairly.

    And thats assuming Oda was correct in his statement regarding things being 80%
    Funny little story, Robert Jordan initially though his Wheel of Time serie would fit in 6 books.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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