The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #451
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    I wont really call running into your litteral counter a lack of knowledge. More extremely bad luck.
    And its not even like Eneru didnt figure out how to fight Luffy. He had just gone to long without facing a real threat. And failed to take it seriously.

    As for the birdcage meanwhile, well no to start with, to become a world power you need a crew. Even someone as individually powerful as Kaido still needs an organisation beneath him.
    Else your not a power, but just a wandering disaster.

    And the real issue with the Birdcage, is that we are not given any coherent explanation for why for example, Flamingo just cant fly out of the cage before starting to close it.
    Or refrain from forming it over himself.



    See i meanwhile suspect Kizaru to trash foxy, because he also got a ranged attack, and are likely far faster.
    Well yeah but then we get to the argument of base stats versus devil fruits. With training foxy would be fast enough to activate his ability to tag kizaru and with enough ruthlessness it would only take once. (and haki of course) That devil fruit is an absurdly dangerous supplementary power. By which I mean by itself its not lethal, but it leaves you pants around your ankles, dangling in the wind, wide open to attack when it connects. 30 seconds moving in super slo motion is an eternity in a fight to the death.
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  2. - Top - End - #452
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Well yeah but then we get to the argument of base stats versus devil fruits. With training foxy would be fast enough to activate his ability to tag kizaru and with enough ruthlessness it would only take once. (and haki of course) That devil fruit is an absurdly dangerous supplementary power. By which I mean by itself its not lethal, but it leaves you pants around your ankles, dangling in the wind, wide open to attack when it connects. 30 seconds moving in super slo motion is an eternity in a fight to the death.
    Well.. if they were equally fast, then they would tag each other simultaneously.
    Foxxy would slow Kizaru, and Kizaru would drill a 1 cm hole in Foxxy's skull.
    Foxxy's DF is strong no doubt. But i dont call it OP or Broken.
    Then i think Perona's are more noteworthy if its about defeating a large gasp in regular power.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Well.. if they were equally fast, then they would tag each other simultaneously.
    Foxxy would slow Kizaru, and Kizaru would drill a 1 cm hole in Foxxy's skull.
    Foxxy's DF is strong no doubt. But i dont call it OP or Broken.
    Then i think Perona's are more noteworthy if its about defeating a large gasp in regular power.
    Keep in mind kizaru isnt moving at light speed all the time, he gets into conflicts at several points and even gets tagged by people who very much so DONT move at light speed. Ie rayliegh, whitebeard, marco. While his attacks are active he is that fast. Otherwise he is human with human reaction times. That being said, i dont think we have ever truly seen him fight with full seriousness. Like akainu and aokiji on that island. He is way too stoned laid back to do that without some serious motivation. So we cant really say for sure what his limits are as we generally see him stomping scrubs like the worst generation at sabaody, or exchanging a couple blows with the big names then disengaging for whatever reason.
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  4. - Top - End - #454
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Keep in mind kizaru isnt moving at light speed all the time, he gets into conflicts at several points and even gets tagged by people who very much so DONT move at light speed. Ie rayliegh, whitebeard, marco. While his attacks are active he is that fast. Otherwise he is human with human reaction times. That being said, i dont think we have ever truly seen him fight with full seriousness. Like akainu and aokiji on that island. He is way too stoned laid back to do that without some serious motivation. So we cant really say for sure what his limits are as we generally see him stomping scrubs like the worst generation at sabaody, or exchanging a couple blows with the big names then disengaging for whatever reason.
    Yes, this is based upon the possibility that he only moves at light speed when he actually turns into light.
    All the same, even if his DF does not argument his speed in any way.
    Then that doesnt matter, since Foxxy's DF sure as hell doesnt either.
    So that trails back to that the original statement is indeed correct.
    If they are both physically equally swift, then Foxy would end with a hole though his thick skull.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Yes, this is based upon the possibility that he only moves at light speed when he actually turns into light.
    All the same, even if his DF does not argument his speed in any way.
    Then that doesnt matter, since Foxxy's DF sure as hell doesnt either.
    So that trails back to that the original statement is indeed correct.
    If they are both physically equally swift, then Foxy would end with a hole though his thick skull.
    If they both fired at the same time, neither bothered to even try to dodge or block the attack and all the stars align then yes. On the other hand, its entirely possible to tank attacks from kizaru, even marineford luffy was able to take a hit from him, battered and exhausted. With haki, who knows what the result would be? On top of that, we have no idea how the slow beam reacts to haki. Does armament block its effect even though it isnt an injury? Unknown as haki wasnt really a thing back then so it never came up.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

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  6. - Top - End - #456
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    In Kizaru's defense, all the people who have actually tagged him are haki users. In 3D2Y, Rayleigh straight up tells Luffy that observational haki is the only way to detect Kizaru's light speed movement.

    Also, on an unrelated note, the new chapters out and I have a sneaking suspicion I know where the samurai are going to get the weapons they need.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    If they both fired at the same time, neither bothered to even try to dodge or block the attack and all the stars align then yes. On the other hand, its entirely possible to tank attacks from kizaru, even marineford luffy was able to take a hit from him, battered and exhausted. With haki, who knows what the result would be? On top of that, we have no idea how the slow beam reacts to haki. Does armament block its effect even though it isnt an injury? Unknown as haki wasnt really a thing back then so it never came up.
    Thing is though if they both did the stand still and attack at the same time. Kizaru's beam would get slowed down so you could simply walk away from it. But all of this is also predicated on it being a stand up fight, which it would be silly for Foxy to do. Kizaru's the Marine, it's his job to be out in the open. Foxy is the sneaky pirate.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Even more random question. Has Luffys dad ever been shown keeping track of luffy and his progress? I mean outside of possibly reading the paper with the latest bit of insanity, but straight up keeping an eye on him in some way? I mean, i cant help but think the enis lobby arc alone would have gotten a manly grin of pride on Dragons face when he eventually learned of it. Then of course the rest of his crazy actions that have probably caused more damage to the marines prestige than his entire revolution. (You know, if the wg hadnt promptly covered as much of it up as possible)
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

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  9. - Top - End - #459
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Even more random question. Has Luffys dad ever been shown keeping track of luffy and his progress? I mean outside of possibly reading the paper with the latest bit of insanity, but straight up keeping an eye on him in some way? I mean, i cant help but think the enis lobby arc alone would have gotten a manly grin of pride on Dragons face when he eventually learned of it. Then of course the rest of his crazy actions that have probably caused more damage to the marines prestige than his entire revolution. (You know, if the wg hadnt promptly covered as much of it up as possible)
    We’ve seen him track Luffy a handful of times, including after Enies Lobby. In that case his response was to immediately leave the room, go outside, and watch the sun set while grinning and monologuing cryptically.

  10. - Top - End - #460
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Turtle View Post
    When the World Economic Journal declared Luffy the Fifth Emperor they mentioned that Luffy had recruited seven notorious captains and the silhouettes of the Journal's sources looked a lot like Cavendish and Bartolomeo. So I'd say the world government knows, if only because Cavendish and Bartolomeo seem constitutionally incapable of not bragging.

    Additional question did the world government ever figured out that Brook was the same Brook from the Rumbar pirates? I thought I remembered something suggesting they had but I'm blanking on it now.
    Yeah, they did figure it out over the time skip. That's why the Marines came to arrest the Soul King at his final concert.

    Anyhoo, New chapter!

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    Things are falling into place for team revolution. Zoro of course outmatched the sword monk just like he has pretty much everyone else he met post time skip. Kaido and Big Mom are going at it. Maybe it'll leave both of them drained when Luffys attack comes? And hilariously, even Queen wants nothing more than to get away from the clash of Emperors.
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  11. - Top - End - #461
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Thing is though if they both did the stand still and attack at the same time. Kizaru's beam would get slowed down so you could simply walk away from it. But all of this is also predicated on it being a stand up fight, which it would be silly for Foxy to do. Kizaru's the Marine, it's his job to be out in the open. Foxy is the sneaky pirate.
    No it would not get slowed down. Foxy's beam does not affect light.
    We have seen that :P
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Well that was a kinda fun chapter. More set up, but that's fine. I'm excited to see how things'll go.


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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    It seems we got another semi-obscure japanese cultural reference here?
    Oh and potential sword upgrade.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Oh and potential sword upgrade.

    the sword grades always felt pointless, like how much could the upper tiers really be helping these guys?


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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by ellenate View Post
    the sword grades always felt pointless, like how much could the upper tiers really be helping these guys?
    Item's can be infused with haki so the higher grade swords are probably able to like, slice through diamonds to ribbon if you're strong enough.


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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Item's can be infused with haki so the higher grade swords are probably able to like, slice through diamonds to ribbon if you're strong enough.
    Yes, if you're strong enough, and i don't think a sword counts for much in that equation.

    Combat involving swords, in general, have been too inconsistent to tell though. I've honestly just seen them as being highly stylized with no real logic behind them... Maybe that's what i don't like. Oda should've never bothered explaining it and just left it at "ooh cool".
    Last edited by ellenate; 2019-08-23 at 11:47 PM.


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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    So far, all Shimotsuki clan members have been very important to Wano. Ushimaru and Yasu were daimyos during their time, and Ryuuma is obviosuly legendary. They honestly feel more interesting now than the Kozuki clan.

    Another exposition-type chapter, but it would be interesting to find out whether Onimaru is a zoan or simple a shapeshifting Kitsune. Same way with Kawamatsu either being an unusual fishman or an actual kappa monster.
    Quote Originally Posted by ellenate View Post
    the sword grades always felt pointless, like how much could the upper tiers really be helping these guys?
    We have canonical example of an object getting its own incarnation spirit after how well it got treated, and that spirit was able to legit help the other Strawhats in Enies Lobby. I wouldn't be surprised if a sword that had been treated well by both crafter and wielder makes it more deadly (in D&D terms, a +X bonus to attack and damage rolls). Next thing you know, One Piece already have Zanpakutos.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    The grades don't have anything to do with how much more powerful the swords are. They're rarity and production quality.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    I wont say the grades are entirely insignificant. They clearly mean something.
    Though how much is left uncertain.

    And the new sword is already being hyped up, so i dont think we can say its not more powerfull.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    The grades are important. They signify just how good the blade is. Take what happened when zorro fought mihawk WAY back at the start of the series. Zoros garbage blades shattered in that last attack. Only his good blade survived. The higher quality the blade, the more it can take, even without haki. Most likely even WITH haki there are limits to what a blade can handle, all other things being equal. There is also the potential of added abilities and such, like how the kitetsu blades are unnaturally bloodthirsty and can turn those using them into berserkers. We havent had the chance to focus a lot on swords so there is no telling what the top level blades are truly capable of when used to their limits rather than to casually swat a small frog in its well.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    The grades don't have anything to do with how much more powerful the swords are. They're rarity and production quality.

    That's what i've been going with honestly, cause they've been pulling off feats with butter knives.


    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    We have canonical example of an object getting its own incarnation spirit after how well it got treated, and that spirit was able to legit help the other Strawhats in Enies Lobby. I wouldn't be surprised if a sword that had been treated well by both crafter and wielder makes it more deadly (in D&D terms, a +X bonus to attack and damage rolls). Next thing you know, One Piece already have Zanpakutos.

    That falls under the "ooh cool" category for me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    The grades are important. They signify just how good the blade is. Take what happened when zorro fought mihawk WAY back at the start of the series. Zoros garbage blades shattered in that last attack. Only his good blade survived. The higher quality the blade, the more it can take, even without haki. Most likely even WITH haki there are limits to what a blade can handle, all other things being equal. There is also the potential of added abilities and such, like how the kitetsu blades are unnaturally bloodthirsty and can turn those using them into berserkers. We havent had the chance to focus a lot on swords so there is no telling what the top level blades are truly capable of when used to their limits rather than to casually swat a small frog in its well.

    That essentially means every swordsmen in this manga is like Velma without her glasses. The whole idea of the swords being that important undercuts all possible skill involved. It would be like a p2w game.


    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    I wont say the grades are entirely insignificant. They clearly mean something.
    Though how much is left uncertain.

    And the new sword is already being hyped up, so i dont think we can say its not more powerfull.

    It all seems like a case of diminishing returns. The only way it could legitimately make zoro stronger, is if it had defensive properties... cause he's a glass cannon. Otherwise, it's just another sword in the dance.


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  22. - Top - End - #472
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    We do also know thats there is a.. i dont know what term is fitting, area of power?
    Thats seemingly different from haki and devil fruits.
    It being whatever it is that power Zorro's special attacks.
    In particular his Azura finishing move. It can easily be sword quality affects that.

    That essentially means every swordsmen in this manga is like Velma without her glasses. The whole idea of the swords being that important undercuts all possible skill involved. It would be like a p2w game.
    It doesnt undercut anything.
    Mihawk showed us even a penknife is enough if the swordsman is good enough.
    Zorro shows us he can still perform swordless sword techniques at limited effect.

    It all seems like a case of diminishing returns. The only way it could legitimately make zoro stronger, is if it had defensive properties... cause he's a glass cannon. Otherwise, it's just another sword in the dance.
    The way Kaido tanked Luffy's blows shows there is still plenty of room for growth in the damage department.
    I think being unable to cut Kaido would suck for anyone fighting him.
    And no Zorro isnt a glass cannon. He has repeatedly shown an inhumanly high ability to both avoid and survive physical injury.
    Last edited by lord_khaine; 2019-08-24 at 10:33 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    I wont say the grades are entirely insignificant. They clearly mean something.
    Though how much is left uncertain.

    And the new sword is already being hyped up, so i dont think we can say its not more powerfull.
    No one said they're insignificant. We're told what the grades mean early on. We're told about Meito, the status of a sword, and what that means for each blade. It's all about the craftsmanship of the blades themselves and that's reflected in their english translation. There are 12 Supreme Grade Swords, 21 Great Grade Swords, and 50 Skillfull Grade Swords. These swords all have a history that's chronicled with the blade itself. This is further evidenced by the English translation "Famous Swords".

    It has nothing to do with power. None of Zoro's blades, or any other blade for that matter, has done anything particularly distinguishing from any other. It's been pretty clearly demonstrated that it's the wielder of the blade that makes them special. Mihawk's done all sorts of nonsense with any number of blades. Whitebeard had one of the top grade blades and didn't do anything demonstrating it was a top tier crafted blade. I don't think you, or anyone else, can say it's more powerful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    No one said they're insignificant. We're told what the grades mean early on. We're told about Meito, the status of a sword, and what that means for each blade. It's all about the craftsmanship of the blades themselves and that's reflected in their english translation. There are 12 Supreme Grade Swords, 21 Great Grade Swords, and 50 Skillfull Grade Swords. These swords all have a history that's chronicled with the blade itself. This is further evidenced by the English translation "Famous Swords".

    It has nothing to do with power. None of Zoro's blades, or any other blade for that matter, has done anything particularly distinguishing from any other. It's been pretty clearly demonstrated that it's the wielder of the blade that makes them special. Mihawk's done all sorts of nonsense with any number of blades. Whitebeard had one of the top grade blades and didn't do anything demonstrating it was a top tier crafted blade. I don't think you, or anyone else, can say it's more powerful.
    Exactly, these blades are legendary, people have done things with them. But that doesn't make them more powerful than any other sword, just that they have a history to them.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    It doesnt undercut anything.

    The theory of the sword being more powerful (an upgrade for zoro) does as-


    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Mihawk showed us even a penknife is enough if the swordsman is good enough.

    it has already been shown skill means more than the sword.


    The fans always hyped these swords up but in the end they never really do anything that significant...


    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    And no Zorro isnt a glass cannon.

    In the dictionary next to glass cannon should be Zoro's face.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ellenate View Post
    The theory of the sword being more powerful (an upgrade for zoro) does as-





    it has already been shown skill means more than the sword.


    The fans always hyped these swords up but in the end they never really do anything that significant...





    In the dictionary next to glass cannon should be Zoro's face.
    How do you figure zoro is a glass cannon? Dude takes absurd damage and continues to fight. Remember when he took on kuma and absorbed all of luffys damage? Yeah, he is the exact opposite of glass. As for the swords, just because some swords are better than others doesnt mean you need the best sword or you die. Skill will always be paramount as mihawk could have given zoro his worlds best sword blade in their fight then proceeded to butcher zoro like a concussed pig with that tiny dagger of his. That being said, having better gear is always better than having weaker gear if you can manage it. If zoro can get his hands on blades roughly equivalent to mihawk, then the eventual fight between them will be pure skill rather than maybe revolving around if his swords can stand up to the fight.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    How do you figure zoro is a glass cannon?
    he fainted from getting stabbed, once, then proceeded to be bedridden.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ellenate View Post
    he fainted from getting stabbed, once, then proceeded to be bedridden.
    And nami punched out luffy once, does that make him a glass cannon?
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    Nov 2006

    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    he fainted from getting stabbed, once, then proceeded to be bedridden.
    You mean, surviving what should be a fatal wound from a fellow supernova, and recovering without real medical attention,
    somehow magically turns him into a glass cannon?

    Where it should also be noted, a large part of Zorro's defence comes from his ability to block, dodge or parry attacks.
    Something that in that specific case was hindered by him both being flanked, and having civilians to protect.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  30. - Top - End - #480
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by ellenate View Post
    In the dictionary next to glass cannon should be Zoro's face.
    Zoro is one of, if not the, most resilient Strawhat member, although his health recovery rate is arguably far worse than Luffy's. Majority of the fights he's in, he's handicapped by a prior injury, but he still pulled through and beat the arc villain's top subordinates.

    The "nothing happened" moment of Thriller Bark Arc pretty much shows he can handle Luffy's pain the entire arc on top of his.

    Nami I would say would be the archetypal glass cannon of the SH crew. Her upgraded climatact and even getting Zeus raised her offensive power quite high, but I still see her getting one shotted even by those lower than Yonkou commander positions

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