OOTS #1157 - The Discussion Thread.

[woweedd]

Whereas I think you're making a category error by expecting OotS gods to function on the same moral scale as mortals at all. Rich described their attitude toward mortals as comparable to our attitude toward termites and dust mites.

This does mean that if judged on the same scale as Roy Greenhilt, all the gods of the OotS setting would come out as essentially Neutral Evil, with the difference between Thor and Hel being that Thor is closer to the Neutral border than Hel. And it means that Dvalin, ultimately, cares about the oath he made and doesn't really care about the mortals who might die and be damned as a result of him upholding the letter of that oath in a situation it was never intended for--they're only dust mites. It's not a matter of a big picture value. It's exceedingly narrow, actually: I swore this oath, I follow it, what the mortal me was thinking when he took it doesn't matter.

Not to try to argue with gut reactions, of course.

I mean...Looking at Thor, Sif, Freya, and even Frigg suggests that there's more to it then that.

[dtilque]

This is in regards to whether the Dwarves have a law against destroying property not one's own:

I mean, why should they? This requires several assumptions of facts not in evidence.

Only because it's impossible to list every Dwarven law on the books in a single comic strip.

Now this is fantasy, so an author might explore the ramifications of a society that doesn't have all the usual laws such as this. But Dwarven society is depicted as being the most lawful society around, so I wouldn't expect that this is the society that such authorial experiments are conducted on.

And the storyteller in me thinks that Durkon's new hammer + Durkon being the son of a gifted sapper is going to come into play here.

Durkon could get away with a single blow to the ceiling, after which I expect he'll be petrified. Will that be enough to break it?

[Ganbatte]

Durkon could get away with a single blow to the ceiling, after which I expect he'll be petrified. Will that be enough to break it?

Isn't that hammer throwable anyway? He might just destroy it from a distance outside of the boundaries of the barriers. Neither Durkula nor Gontor expected the Oots to have that sort of ranged attacks.

[Ruck]

Durkon could get away with a single blow to the ceiling, after which I expect he'll be petrified. Will that be enough to break it?

According to your assumptions, which aren't my assumptions.

[zimmerwald1915]

I mean...Looking at Thor, Sif, Freya, and even Frigg suggests that there's more to it then that.

Eh, I don't remember any dust mites I've met, mostly because they're barely perceptable. Thor may remember everyone who's ever worshipped him but 1) he's far more perceptive than I am, 2) he doesn't seem to extend the same courtesy toward mortals who did not worship him, and 3) if gods can be selective like that, it stands to reason that some choose not to bother remembering anyone at all.

[Kish]

I mean...Looking at Thor, Sif, Freya, and even Frigg suggests that there's more to it then that.

Does it? Thor presents himself as friendly and caring (and explicitly says he's awesome); he was also more interested in getting tanked and pawing Sif than in seeing himself whether the dwarf (note: this is a less concerned mode of reference than saying "Durkon" would have been) lives or dies.

And that's even with throwing the "Thor grumbles on the phone while Surtur eats a village of his worshipers" strip out entirely before any discussion begins. Ultimately, what have any of those gods done to show, not tell, concern for their worshipers as people rather than power batteries? Thor's the only one who comes close to having an answer at all there, unless I've forgotten something (he's been shown attempting to rules-lawyer Hel out of any soul he can make a case for getting).

[Dion]

Huh? How do you figure? Dvalin's high priest is in the room, channeling him by proxy like all the other high priests are doing, and we've already established that the gods can only hear each other.

I agree that the gods don’t listen to what the mortals say during the godsmoot. The godsmoot exists as a forum to facilitate communication between the gods, and things said by random mortals up in the gallery simply aren’t important to the gods.

But both Loki and Thor learned Hel’s plan. We know Loki and Thor know Hel’s plan because they have taken actions on panel to thwart those plans (Loki by sending Hilgya, and Thor by telling Durkon about the hammer).

There are only three options for Dvalin: (1) Dvalin already knows Hel’s plan, (2) Dvalin doesn’t know Hel’s plan and he won’t figure it out in time, or (3) Dvalin doesn’t know Hel’s plan yet, but will put 2 and 2 together before accepting the council’s vote as an indication of their will.

My opinion that either Dvalin already knows all about Hel’s plan (because either he was observing the godsmoot, or his high priest told him, or one of the other gods told him) or Dvalin is so removed from the world that he’ll never figure out the plan.

If Dvalin hasn’t figured out Hel’s plan already, I can’t see how some swirly eyes are going to help.

[Cinnibar]

"Vote Yes on the main proposal..."

So, this could also be a plan, rephrasing the proposal to USE the domination. Particularly if the vampires are kept too busy to do more than gloat as their thralls read off what they think the proposal is.

[Ruck]

I agree that the gods don’t listen to what the mortals say during the godsmoot. The godsmoot exists as a forum to facilitate communication between the gods, and things said by random mortals up in the gallery simply aren’t important to the gods.
1
But both Loki and Thor learned Hel’s plan. We know Loki and Thor know Hel’s plan because they have taken actions on panel to thwart those plans (Loki by sending Hilgya, and Thor by telling Durkon about the hammer).

There are only three options for Dvalin: (1) Dvalin already knows Hel’s plan, (2) Dvalin doesn’t know Hel’s plan and he won’t figure it out in time, or (3) Dvalin doesn’t know Hel’s plan yet, but will put 2 and 2 together before accepting the council’s vote as an indication of their will.

My opinion that either Dvalin already knows all about Hel’s plan (because either he was observing the godsmoot, or his high priest told him, or one of the other gods told him) or Dvalin is so removed from the world that he’ll never figure out the plan.

If Dvalin hasn’t figured out Hel’s plan already, I can’t see how some swirly eyes are going to help.

I am responding to the post that said, specifically, that in #1016, Dvalin overheard the vampires talking about dominating the Dwarven elders, because he was physically present. He was not physically present, and the gods can only hear each other.

EDIT 1: For reference:

that wasn't dvalin's high cleric, that was dvalin himself

Also, the vampires literally announced their plan out loud in front of every high cleric of the northern pantheon in comic 1016 (including Dvalin’s own high cleric).

In fact, the proxies had been dismissed before the vampires reveal the plan, so Dvalin wasn't there either in the flesh or by proxy.

EDIT 2: Whether or not Dvalin knows about the plan, I think it's safe to assume he can't simply stop it. I mean, a god just told us that "whatever solution you think up that involves me fixing it for you-- I guarantee you there's a bunch of dumb god laws tying my hands, OK?" If a reader has to make assumptions about how things "should" work in a way that suggests the plan won't work, when everything in-story tells us it will, they need different assumptions.

[Dion]

I am responding to the post that said, specifically, that in #1016, Dvalin overheard the vampires talking about dominating the Dwarven elders, because he was physically present. He was not physically present, and the gods can only hear each other.

Right. The summon proxy only allows the gods to hear each other.

But that shouldn’t be interpreted to mean the gods can’t figure out what’s going on at the godsmoot, especially since we see direct evidence on panel that some gods are not only aware of Hel’s plan, but are taking active steps to thwart it.

[Fyraltari]

Right. The summon proxy only allows the gods to hear each other.

But that shouldn’t be interpreted to mean the gods can’t figure out what’s going on at the godsmoot, especially since we see direct evidence on panel that some gods are not only aware of Hel’s plan, but are taking active steps to thwart it.

Thor knew because Durkon was his cleric and got himself tangled with the Gate plot meaning that Thor probably was watching him a lot since Dorukan’s dungeon. He saw Durkon turn into a vampire and may have figured out Hel’s plot by scrying on the Order after the vote was suspended when Roy explained to the others. We know Loki and Thor keep in touch and have the same goal here so Thor probably told him. We don’t know that Thor and Dvalin keep in touch like that.

[Clistenes]

Since Stone to Flesh can be reversed with Break Enchantment or Flesh to Stone... can't the group just cast Greater Dispel Magic or Magic Circle Against Evil and later turn the caster back to flesh?

Or they could just cast Magic Circle Against Evil on a member of the Order of the Stick before they cross the blue barrier, then walk around approaching the councilors...

Or they could blow up the floor under the chamber and make all councilors fall down out of the protected area...

Or they could blow up the ceiling and let the Vampires turn to dust (what time of the day is it now in the Ooverse...?).

[Dion]

Whether or not Dvalin knows about the plan, I think it's safe to assume he can't simply stop it.

I'm pretty sure we're agreeing with each other 100%.

My post was intended as a counter argument to the idea that Dvalin will say "Oh my gosh, I just noticed that members of the council have swirly eyes! I had absolutely no possible way of knowing that Hel had a nefarious plan involving vampires, and this takes me completely by surprise. Well, it's a good thing that I'm not only a god who must follow a billion years of carefully constructed god rules, but also an especially lawful, oath bound god who is literal embodiment of the honor of an entire race. Because that means I can just ignore the rules and overrule my council. That will neatly solve a problem that otherwise could have been solved by the heroes of this story you're reading."

And then Tarquin, Julio and Elan will sing a song about how that's great storytelling.

[Clistenes]

I'm pretty sure we're agreeing with each other 100%.

My post was intended as a counter argument to the idea that Dvalin will say "Oh my gosh, I just noticed that members of the council have swirly eyes! I had absolutely no possible way of knowing that Hel had a nefarious plan involving vampires, and this takes me completely by surprise. Well, it's a good thing that I'm not only a god who must follow a billion years of carefully constructed god rules, but also an especially lawful, oath bound god who is literal embodiment of the honor of an entire race. Because that means I can just ignore the rules and overrule my council. That will neatly solve a problem that otherwise could have been solved by the heroes of this story you're reading."

And then Tarquin, Julio and Elan will sing a song about how that's great storytelling.

I dunno... I get that, for plot reasons, Dvalin must obey the will of the council even if they are mind-controlled, but, taking into account the kind of world they live in, it is very strange they don't have a "all decisions taken by the council while mind-controlled are null" rule...

I mean, they have defenses against mind control, but they don't have provisions to reverse rulings made under mind control...?

[danielxcutter]

Hmm... There are three rings of defenses, right?

Maybe the first is the orange barrier, and the third is the blue barrier.

The second ring is the middle area where all the bodyguards are who beat the crap out of whatever meddling being managed to bypass the first ring.

I mean, it didn't work because they probably didn't expect high-leveled vampire dwarf clerics, but it's not that bad of a defense, I suppose.

[warmachine]

No one's mentioned wards against teleportation. Or that beings in a Bag of Holding's space are in another plane.

[Kish]

I dunno... I get that, for plot reasons, Dvalin must obey the will of the council even if they are mind-controlled, but, taking into account the kind of world they live in, it is very strange they don't have a "all decisions taken by the council while mind-controlled are null" rule...

I mean, they have defenses against mind control, but they don't have provisions to reverse rulings made under mind control...?

Sure they do. Tomorrow, after the Godsmoot has acted on being given a Yes vote, the Council of Elders can overturn the vote as per their usual protocols and determine that they do not in fact want the world destroyed and all their souls condemned to Hel.

And when they determine that, Hel will laugh, and laugh, and tell her new slaves to get back to work.

[Amarsir]

Giant, I must commend you to continually come up with infuriating but logical scenarios for our heroes to overcome and in such a comical way to boot.

I don’t want to be negative, but since you’re drawing my attention to it... the rule seems created specifically to create a problem. Why have a gap between the orange and blue barriers except to specifically have a place to cast undispellable spells? In what scenario is that better than having the same barrier wipe AND prevent?

I mean it doesn’t matter because the story is going to do what the story is going to do. I just don’t feel like this setup ever had any particular logic.

[georgie_leech]

I don’t want to be negative, but since you’re drawing my attention to it... the rule seems created specifically to create a problem. Why have a gap between the orange and blue barriers except to specifically have a place to cast undispellable spells? In what scenario is that better than having the same barrier wipe AND prevent?

I mean it doesn’t matter because the story is going to do what the story is going to do. I just don’t feel like this setup ever had any particular logic.

Permanent Blue Barrier of Dwarven Law had a range of Close, while Permanent Orange Barrier of Just Dwarves (Elves Keep Out >:( ) was Medium.

[Clistenes]

Sure they do. Tomorrow, after the Godsmoot has acted on being given a Yes vote, the Council of Elders can overturn the vote as per their usual protocols and determine that they do not in fact want the world destroyed and all their souls condemned to Hel.

And when they determine that, Hel will laugh, and laugh, and tell her new slaves to get back to work.

Again, in this world somebody could dominate the councilors, have them vote what they want, and then make them kill themselves before they could reverse the ruling...

Or they could keep them under control permanently... I mean Vampires, Mindflayers, Beholders... there are many creatures who can spawn Dominate, Charm and Suggestion at will... And there are stuff like Helms of Reverse Alignment too...

Dwarven society needs a way to reverse decisions made under mind control before releasing the councilors or deposing and replacing them...

[Jasdoif]

I don’t want to be negative, but since you’re drawing my attention to it... the rule seems created specifically to create a problem. Why have a gap between the orange and blue barriers except to specifically have a place to cast undispellable spells? In what scenario is that better than having the same barrier wipe AND prevent?

Like the Exarch specifically hinted at, maybe whoever had the place built intentionally wanted to bypass the restriction on spells. Maybe they wanted to influence quarrelsome elders to make the "right" decision, maybe they thought someone would have the foresight to cast spells that prevent mind control after the elders came in, maybe they were worried about the hall coming under siege and wanted teleportation to be an escape option.

[The MunchKING]

Elan's not a dwarf, how is he getting in to sing his song?

Play it VERY LOUDLY?

(Yeah I know, the rules probably have some kind of limit on how far out bardic music magic will go, but still...

I think this has been suggested before at least to some extent.

I think the order will smash a hole in the top of the chamber. Maybe sunlight will destroy the vampires (or maybe the still have protection). However then they can cast into the chamber. Roy will protect the spell casters.

Did they say this meeting place was above-ground? I would think a Dwarven meeting point would be underground, and all smashing the roof would get you is a better view of the outside-rock.

EDIT: Looked it up, still underground.

Hey, from the last comment it sounds like there are people who would react from hearing the evil laugh. Does that mean there are undominated people inside?

Dvalin (IIRC, I mean the Dwarf God Guy) CAN'T be dominated, so you really don't want him hearing your evil laugh and checking out what's up.

In all likelihood, the high degree of visual contrast between orange-blue is the reason Portal used it as well. The only other color combos with the same degree of contrast are yellow-purple and red-green. And yellow tends to be harder to see, while red-green is too associated with Christmas.

Which is probably why Yellow-Purple is the Player 2 combo for Portals in Portal 2.

Or, he’s oath bound to accept their decision, and he will break that oath, reject the vote, and go to Hel.

He's a GOD. I think we're a little beyond the point where that's a realistic possibility.

Five quataloos on: council votes to say “it is our will to destroy the world”, Dvalin breaks his oath and decides to *NOT* follow the will of the council. Dvalin is dishonored and goes to Hel.

Gods as a general rule don't die, so whether his actions are honorable or not, Hel will have no claim over him.

It is near the surface, as per the complaints of the woman councillor.

Near, but not at according to the art.

SO that's another level of rock you have to blast through.

Other people had the idea to break the ceiling to let in sunlight, which of course the vampires are allergic to. But that violates Dwarven law, so whoever tries to do it is instantly turned to stone. The question is, does the spell anticipate that kind of action so that it prevents it or not?

Only if they do it from inside the blue zone. Have someone fly to the roof and break it from the outside-in (Or if a Bugsby's Hand is strong enough peel back the roof so minimal amounts fall on the people inside). Of course they'd have to break the above-rock too.

[Bilbo Baggins]

Play it VERY LOUDLY?

(Yeah I know, the rules probably have some kind of limit on how far out bardic music magic will go, but still...

The inner chamber's barrier is soundproof...

[The MunchKING]

The inner chamber's barrier is soundproof...

…

…

They say that RIGHT THERE in the Comic.

I am apparently dumb.

[a_flemish_guy]

Huh? How do you figure? Dvalin's high priest is in the room, channeling him by proxy like all the other high priests are doing, and we've already established that the gods can only hear each other.

ah merde, I thought the rule was different for demi-gods but they clearly say "the priests of the demi-gods", my mistake

[rbetieh]

Dwarves using magic like this confuses me, and yes that does make me a Speciesist of sorts....

[Dion]

Again, in this world somebody could dominate the councilors, have them vote what they want, and then make them kill themselves before they could reverse the ruling...

It’s possible that the gods just don’t care.

Imagine an analogous scenario on the sentient movie theatre snack world:

“We, the gods, asked the movie theater snacks what they wanted to do with the world. It’s a long convoluted story, but in the end the sour gummi worms mind controlled the bags of popcorn, and the whole lot of them voted to be thrown in the cosmic dumpster.”

“ A few of the gods argued we shouldn’t let the sour gummi worms decide the fate of the entire planet, but... c’mon. Were we supposed to listen to those chewy things that rip your fillings out instead?”

[danielxcutter]

It’s possible that the gods just don’t care.

Imagine an analogous scenario on the sentient movie theatre snack world:

“We, the gods, asked the movie theater snacks what they wanted to do with the world. It’s a long convoluted story, but in the end the sour gummi worms mind controlled the bags of popcorn, and the whole lot of them voted to be thrown in the cosmic dumpster.”

“ A few of the gods argued we shouldn’t let the sour gummi worms decide the fate of the entire planet, but... c’mon. Were we supposed to listen to those chewy things that rip your fillings out instead?”

That honestly sounds pretty accurate for the gods as a whole, to me at least. Sure, maybe not the Good gods, but about 2/3rds... aren't.

[Larre Gannd]

It’s possible that the gods just don’t care.

Imagine an analogous scenario on the sentient movie theatre snack world:

“We, the gods, asked the movie theater snacks what they wanted to do with the world. It’s a long convoluted story, but in the end the sour gummi worms mind controlled the bags of popcorn, and the whole lot of them voted to be thrown in the cosmic dumpster.”

“ A few of the gods argued we shouldn’t let the sour gummi worms decide the fate of the entire planet, but... c’mon. Were we supposed to listen to those chewy things that rip your fillings out instead?”

Oh, you just had to bring the poor sentient snacks into this! Now I’m hungry!

[Ayek]

It is the kind of thing Hilgya would suggest - and at which Durkon would balk.

It would also drive some people here crazy.

I just had a thought as to how Durkon et al. can break the Ex-Exarch's plan:

Spoiler

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The Dominated people in the council chamber have been told to obey any instruction given them by a vampire, but they're just regular dwarves with no supernatural ability to tell who's a vampire and who isn't--so if Durkon, Minrah and Hilgya put fake teeth in and pretend to be vampires, they ought to be able to countermand the Exarch's orders at the critical moment.

A slight variation:

Spoiler

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Whoever is disguised as a vampire could order the Dominated dwarves to do something that violates Dwarven law, such as punch each other. Then they would be turned to stone for the remainder of the meeting and so unable to vote.