OOTS #1157 - The Discussion Thread.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

See, this is where a simple "dominated or coerced votes don't count" might be more effective than magical defense. Oy...

There is no spell that can detect a coerced vote, because in some sense, many votes can be described as coerced. And it does protect against domination - that's the first ring.

Man, whoever came up with this orange/blue scheme really didn't think it through. Leaving a gap between undoing spells and barring spellcasting sounds like the sort of thing someone should have exploited before.

It feels like a compromise: some dwarves wanted to have powerful spellcasters as their bodyguards, so they need a place inside the defences where they can still cast.

Grey Wolf

[Mad Humanist]

I think this has been suggested before at least to some extent.

I think the order will smash a hole in the top of the chamber. Maybe sunlight will destroy the vampires (or maybe the still have protection). However then they can cast into the chamber. Roy will protect the spell casters.

[Nith]

Hey, from the last comment it sounds like there are people who would react from hearing the evil laugh. Does that mean there are undominated people inside?

[Lordchoculla]

New comic is up.

Brilliant, yet again, thanks

[TRH]

Oh, right, and I'm sure Gontor is thrilled to finally encounter some doors and walls that behave as nature intended.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well hopefully this answers the complaints that people had about the vampires' plan.

Hahahaha!

You must be new around here

Hey, from the last comment it sounds like there are people who would react from hearing the evil laugh. Does that mean there are undominated people inside?

Maybe some that arrived before the vampires did? The vampires only really need to dominate 50%+1, so if a few are already there undominated, that doesn't stop their plans.

Grey Wolf

[Becca Stareyes]

So, who gets to decide which is the main proposal and how it is worded? Is that set already?

Because if you describe the defenses this well, it feels like the resolution should come from an unexpected direction, rather than trying to rules-lawyer the defenses.

[Sapphire Guard]

Hoping whatever happens inside will be verbal. The Elders straight up making saving throws rather than destroy the world under domination would be my favourite outcome.

[Ramza00]

Elan gets in and uses an illusion spell to mimic the sound of the vampires and give them new orders? Elan has used major image before so I think it should work.

The illusion is not interacting with the people directly, and it has concentration effect so Elan can cast the spell outside and then maintain it via concentration.

So the only question is how does Elan get into the middle chamber past the first barrier which is Orange? How would it interact if Elan was polymorph prior to passing the barrier? The polymorph will be dispelled but will Elan be able to cross the barrier during this time or will it make it anti dwarf only effect kick in after the dispelled Elan?

[Windscion]

Is anyone clear on how closely Greg read those rules? Because if Durkon gets stoned, it would be bad.
OTOH, if he smashes one wall then stands outside and throws his hammer inside while Roy throws his sword, they can pretty much ignore the effect of the wards. Plus Haley's arrows and who knows that V might be able to do.
So really, nice plan ex²-arch -- provided no high level parties are around to siege engine the walls.

[Sniffnoy]

There is no spell that can detect a coerced vote, because in some sense, many votes can be described as coerced. And it does protect against domination - that's the first ring.

There's no such spell in the real world either, yet we have laws like this all the same!

[denthor]

Can someone in detail explain holes and walls how it relates to orange and blue.

I am at a loss

[Verappo]

That cackle makes me wonder if there's at least an evil laugh per book by now.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There's no such spell in the real world either, yet we have laws like this all the same!

Your point? Because mine was "if your turn to stone if magic decides your vote was coerced, there are a lot of statues of former heads of clan in that room, and a lot of clans very angry about it".

"Coerced" could be interpreted to mean anything from "threatened two days before the meeting was called" to "against their better judgement at the last minute". In the real world, that doesn't matter because if it comes to it, a judge, well, judges. But magic is not a judge, its a set of rules, and rules have a way of producing unintended consequences. Which in this case would be deadly.

Grey Wolf

[Resileaf]

Hahahaha!

You must be new around here

Yeah, I'm not really believing it myself.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Can someone in detail explain holes and walls how it relates to orange and blue.

I am at a loss

The video game Portal involves creating holes in walls, in orange in blue. And once created, they are connected, so you enter one and leave through the other one.
Jossed

Grey Wolf

[Grey Watcher]

The vampires have no incentive to make a stand outside the blue barrier at this point, to my understanding. So drawing them out and dusting them may not be so easy unless they do the Magic Circle/Antimagic Field plan I suggested above.

I wasn't necessarily thinking the Order would find a way to draw them out. Just that, once within the orange barrier, one potential tactic is to just go on the offensive and destroy the vampires before the vote happens, rather than trying to find a way break the domination more directly. Still, interested to see how this will play out.

[ratfox]

The rule is: if we get to know the plan in advance, it will fail.

[Kish]

There's no such spell in the real world either, yet we have laws like this all the same!

Okay. Suppose there's a rule like that.

What good would it do?

"The Council voted Yes" will get passed to Dvalin (if the vote simply goes ahead as the vampires have planned, which of course it won't).

Can someone in detail explain holes and walls how it relates to orange and blue.

I am at a loss

It's a reference to the Portal computer game.

[Xyril]

See, this is where a simple "dominated or coerced votes don't count" might be more effective than magical defense. Oy...

The former bit would be easy, since it's pretty black and white whether domination or a similar effect is in play. You can simply implement a system where you apply a standard battery of divinations before each vote, and allow others to lodge a formal accusation that triggers specific testing--for example, if someone claims you are under an undetectable enchantment of some sort, they could subject you to being dispelled and see if that changes anything.

Coercion is harder--even in real life, there's no bright line where you can say "This is enough external pressure that you really can't exert meaningful free will." In a world where magical or divine forces have the power to subtly alter your thinking, I imagine it would only be harder.

For example, I believe it is beyond debate to say that Durkon was not in control of Durkula's actions in his body--at least, no more responsible than any sentient being can be over another. However, what about the vampire? When he absorbed all of Durkon's memories at once, you could argue that they overrode his free will, but you could also legitimately argue that his decisions were the not unexpected response of a free-willed being (one specifically designed to be very similar to Durkon) to "living" the same experience Durkon did. It becomes even more grey before that point, where Durkon is able to more subtly manipulate his thinking by exposing him to specific memories. If you expose someone to new information and that changes his mind--and his vote--is that coercion? Does it change your answer if the way you convey that information is supernatural?

[The Giant]

Orange and blue. Subliminal portal tribute or just a coincidence?

Coincidence; I've never played Portal and forgot it existed until you just pointed it out. I picked blue because I had already picked orange in the previous comic and I wanted the two colors to be maximally different to avoid confusion as to where characters are standing. And I didn't want either barrier to be red (because I used that for the Anti-Life Shell) or yellow (which I used for the Godsmoot barrier).

In all likelihood, the high degree of visual contrast between orange-blue is the reason Portal used it as well. The only other color combos with the same degree of contrast are yellow-purple and red-green. And yellow tends to be harder to see, while red-green is too associated with Christmas.

[bc56]

Ok, so the barrier prevents you from casting Dispel Magic on a creature in the room.
What if you cast it on the barrier?

Also,
"Bwee hee hee!" doesn't have nearly the same narrative weight as "Bwa ha ha!" It sounds like the vampire is giggling rather than laughing maniacally.

[Resileaf]

Coincidence; I've never played Portal and forgot it existed until you just pointed it out. I picked blue because I had already picked orange in the previous comic and I wanted the two colors to be maximally different to avoid confusion as to where characters are standing. And I didn't want either barrier to be red (because I used that for the Anti-Life Shell) or yellow (which I used for the Godsmoot barrier).

In all likelihood, the high degree of visual contrast between orange-blue is the reason Portal used it as well. The only other color combos with the same degree of contrast are yellow-purple and red-green. And yellow tends to be harder to see, while red-green is too associated with Christmas.

You would be right about the reason Valve used those colors for Portal. They explain in their dev commentary their design choices for a lot of things in-game, and the portal colors is explained as such, for contrast and so it would always be clear which portal you are using and where it is, further helped by the level design rarely using those two colors.

[Fyraltari]

Can the order Dominate a vampire inside this corridor to make them countermand these orders?

Also, looks like the Exarch just drank. More vampires?

[2D8HP]

"Bweeheeheehee" instead of "Mwahahaha"?



Truly the most vile evil!

[Mad Humanist]

Coincidence; I've never played Portal and forgot it existed until you just pointed it out. I picked blue because I had already picked orange in the previous comic and I wanted the two colors to be maximally different to avoid confusion as to where characters are standing. And I didn't want either barrier to be red (because I used that for the Anti-Life Shell) or yellow (which I used for the Godsmoot barrier).

In all likelihood, the high degree of visual contrast between orange-blue is the reason Portal used it as well. The only other color combos with the same degree of contrast are yellow-purple and red-green. And yellow tends to be harder to see, while red-green is too associated with Christmas.

Okay now that this is acknowledged to be a purely coincidental reference to a video game, does that count as a reference to a video game?

[Resileaf]

Can the order Dominate a vampire inside this corridor to make them countermand these orders?

Also, looks like the Exarch just drank. More vampires?

I think his teeth are still red from the thralls he created in front of the Temple of Thor. They were that color before he left.

[Seward]

OK, here's the deal.

Durkon knows the plan and yet feels totally fine with resting until Dawn to get spells back instead of heading this off before they've subverted enough votes.

Which means there is a counter the 3 vampires haven't thought of that is within the capability of the OOTS+allies to carry out without much chance of failure.

Leaving aside the gigantic narrative fail that is explaining your perfect plan on camera which also dooms the plan itself, except when Rich is is deliberately deconstructing the trope.

To pick just two possible options.

1. V knows antimagic shell. That will both suppress domination and any attempt to turn anybody to stone within that area.

2. Circle of protection from evil moves with the target, and Durkon can easily pray for enough of those for everybody within the OOTS. This will both prevent domination of party members (With Durkon's caster level, much harder to dispel than a level 1 protection from law wand spell) and simply moving close to anybody dominated will suppress the domination without actually attacking or casting any spells.

Personally Like option 1 because it also allows the party's physical attackers to attack the 3 vampires while still protecting them from being turnd to stone, and the only counter is for the vampires to physically get into the antimagic shell, which suppresses all of their SU abilities and likely results in them being staked or beheaded by Roy and/or Belkar.

[Dion]

Gontor cackles “Bwee hee hee hee?”

That’s not an evil cackle! That’s a Michael Jackson song.

[Leftour]

Coincidence; I've never played Portal and forgot it existed until you just pointed it out. I picked blue because I had already picked orange in the previous comic and I wanted the two colors to be maximally different to avoid confusion as to where characters are standing. And I didn't want either barrier to be red (because I used that for the Anti-Life Shell) or yellow (which I used for the Godsmoot barrier).

In all likelihood, the high degree of visual contrast between orange-blue is the reason Portal used it as well. The only other color combos with the same degree of contrast are yellow-purple and red-green. And yellow tends to be harder to see, while red-green is too associated with Christmas.

Wow, thanks! I I did not expect to get a definite answer, yet here i stand corrected.

Many thanks for your work from the other side of the Atlantic by the way :D.