OOTS #1157 - The Discussion Thread.

[Quartz]

How does the Exarch know Durkula died? The vampiress in blue fled before Belkar staked Durkula.

[Peelee]

So is Dvalin unable to detect that the council members have been mind controlled, or are the vampires counting on him to not care?

You're assuming Dvalin will be physically in the council chamber, then?

[satorian]

Both books and SRD refer to "undead creatures", so undead are RAW creatures.

Healing spells are definitely using a spell on a creature (they are also an attack, since you have to initiate a touch attack to land one on an unwilling subject).

Turn Undead is a supernatural ability.

AoE is less cut and dry, though I would bet that "attack with a fireball" is somewhere in the 3.5 rules.

I don't think the way around this is going to come from loopholes inside the room.

[Sniffnoy]

Your point? Because mine was "if your turn to stone if magic decides your vote was coerced, there are a lot of statues of former heads of clan in that room, and a lot of clans very angry about it".

"Coerced" could be interpreted to mean anything from "threatened two days before the meeting was called" to "against their better judgement at the last minute". In the real world, that doesn't matter because if it comes to it, a judge, well, judges. But magic is not a judge, its a set of rules, and rules have a way of producing unintended consequences. Which in this case would be deadly.

Grey Wolf

Oh, I see, you were thinking about the effects of the law-spell. Whereas I was thinking of the effect on Dvalin's vote -- if the council's vote is invalid, then Dvalin would ignore it. (Admittedly, this might require quickly finding a dwarven judge to issue an injunction. :P ) Yes I'm assuming you would not both have such a law and such a spell.

Though in this case it's not actually deadly, as the effect of the spell is temporary. Actually it's not clear that the law would turn anyone to stone at all -- I'm not talking about a law that casting a coerced vote is illegal, but rather a law that a coerced vote is invalid, i.e., doesn't count towards the total. The only way to violate that, I guess, would be for the council chair to record the tally incorrectly. And again the result is still temporary.

[Ganbatte]

You're assuming Dvalin will be physically in the council chamber, I assume?

Why would you assume he's assuming that?

[Sniffnoy]

The former bit would be easy, since it's pretty black and white whether domination or a similar effect is in play. You can simply implement a system where you apply a standard battery of divinations before each vote, and allow others to lodge a formal accusation that triggers specific testing--for example, if someone claims you are under an undetectable enchantment of some sort, they could subject you to being dispelled and see if that changes anything.

Coercion is harder--even in real life, there's no bright line where you can say "This is enough external pressure that you really can't exert meaningful free will." In a world where magical or divine forces have the power to subtly alter your thinking, I imagine it would only be harder.

For example, I believe it is beyond debate to say that Durkon was not in control of Durkula's actions in his body--at least, no more responsible than any sentient being can be over another. However, what about the vampire? When he absorbed all of Durkon's memories at once, you could argue that they overrode his free will, but you could also legitimately argue that his decisions were the not unexpected response of a free-willed being (one specifically designed to be very similar to Durkon) to "living" the same experience Durkon did. It becomes even more grey before that point, where Durkon is able to more subtly manipulate his thinking by exposing him to specific memories. If you expose someone to new information and that changes his mind--and his vote--is that coercion? Does it change your answer if the way you convey that information is supernatural?

Well this is what judges are for, so while the council is voting the Order goes and finds a judge and tries to get an injunction issued so that the result can't be counted as final until such issues are decided. Obviously. :)

[dps]

I'm even more convinced now that Durkon is going to destroy the chamber roof and let the sun in. After all, the rules only specify that you get turned to stone if you attack a creature.

I don't doubt that removing the roof of the chamber and letting in the sunshine would work, but is there enough time for that?

[Peelee]

Why would you assume he's assuming that?

Because Dvalin is a demigod, meaning we cannot ascribe the exact powers that full gods like Thor has, so despite your insistence he could easily not be able to simply "look down" and see what's going on (and, given that Hel, a full god, seems to think the plan will work, and she knows more about the world they're in than you do, I would gamble against anything you have to say vis a vis the current plan only working due to idiot balls or plot holes), we have no idea whether he can or not.

Of course, you ignore "the will of the council is represented by the vote of the council," so I'm not terribly invested in thinking you'll change your mind, but hey, I can still lob it over the plate for you even if you refuse to swing.

[Fyraltari]

How does the Exarch know Durkula died? The vampiress in blue fled before Belkar staked Durkula.

He could have tried Sending to him when she brought back news.

[Resileaf]

How does the Exarch know Durkula died? The vampiress in blue fled before Belkar staked Durkula.

Well since he was a thrall, and thralls become free-willed when their master dies, it seems likely that he would have felt himself becoming free-willed with the death of Greg.
Alternatively, he's assuming, or he confirmed it magically.

[Ganbatte]

Because Dvalin is a demigod, meaning we cannot ascribe the exact powers that full gods like Thor has, so despite your insistence he could easily not be able to simply "look down" and see what's going on (and, given that Hel, a full god, seems to think the plan will work, and she knows more about the world they're in than you do, I would gamble against anything you have to say vis a vis the current plan only working due to idiot balls or plot holes), we have no idea whether he can or not.

Of course, you ignore "the will of the council is represented by the vote of the council," so I'm not terribly invested in thinking you'll change your mind, but hey, I can still lob it over the plate for you even if you refuse to swing.

I don't quite understand why you would react so aggressively to a simple question, while also putting lots of stuff I never said in my mouth.

You made an assumption that has no grounds, as Dvalin doesn't necessarily need to be there physically since he is a divine presence.
Also you're incorrect, there's no indication that the will of the council is represented by the vote of the council, at least not by the informations given to us by the comic.
These are just assumptions of yours, which I do not share.

A coerced vote is not the will of the voter, after all.

If Dvalin is not utterly inept at his oath he should have a modicum of due diligence in making sure no manipulation is at hand, regardless of the safeguards the mortal put in place. Apparently he does not, which doesn't remove the idiot ball in the least to me.

[Peelee]

I don't quite understand why you would react so aggressively to a simple question, while also putting lots of stuff I never said in my mouth.

You mistake tiredness for aggression. Also, everything I claimed you said or believe you have said, just not in this thread. I'm uninterested in semantic games on whether you've said as much in this specific thread or not.

[Psyren]

Dusting the vampires before the vote actually happens would work. I think we've established that a domination ends if the vampire who initiated it is destroyed, right?

The said, I'm sure there are more interesting solutions as well.

There is one that we already know works in OotS - victims can free themselves from a dominate, no magic required. So all the OotS have to do is give them a nudge, or convince them that what they're about to vote on would be against their nature as dwarves - which doesn't seem that hard, and a good setup for a dramatic speech by one of the order (likely Durkon or possibly Hilgya.)

[gallagher]

How deliciously evil! Wonderful comic!

[Caerulea]

I feel like those boundaries should be in the other order.

—Caerulea

[mjasghar]

Dusting the vampires before the vote actually happens would work. I think we've established that a domination ends if the vampire who initiated it is destroyed, right?

The said, I'm sure there are more interesting solutions as well.

Also, the Sudden Skylight hypothesis gains more traction. If we can't get the rest of the Order in through the door....

Barriers like that are usually domes or even spheres depending on wording

[elros]

Between this chamber and the Godsmoot, we are seeing how lawful people can be beaten by their own rules. Nice!

[Jasdoif]

Well this is what judges are for, so while the council is voting the Order goes and finds a judge and tries to get an injunction issued so that the result can't be counted as final until such issues are decided. Obviously. :)

Stalling the Godsmoot/OotS until the Snarl gets out when Team Evil messes with the last Gate could be the actual plan, or an accepted/tolerable alternative.

[Ganbatte]

You mistake tiredness for aggression. Also, everything I claimed you said or believe you have said, just not in this thread. I'm uninterested in semantic games on whether you've said as much in this specific thread or not.

Of course, you ignore "the will of the council is represented by the vote of the council," so I'm not terribly invested in thinking you'll change your mind, but hey, I can still lob it over the plate for you even if you refuse to swing.

There's no clear statement in the story that the will of the council equals the vote of the council, this is just an assumption on your part and base logic would say otherwise, as hypnosis is not one's own will and if it was counted as such they wouldn't have put the anti-spellcasting barriers up in the first place.

I am swinging, and hitting the ball too. You just refuse to run after it.

No conclusive evidence has been provided by the comic so far on this matter so claiming that I'm "ignoring" stuff that doesn't exist is putting words in my mouth.

[mjasghar]

There is no spell that can detect a coerced vote, because in some sense, many votes can be described as coerced. And it does protect against domination - that's the first ring.



It feels like a compromise: some dwarves wanted to have powerful spellcasters as their bodyguards, so they need a place inside the defences where they can still cast.

Grey Wolf

Also if someone has some medical incident you can take them outside for healing

[mjasghar]

Hey, from the last comment it sounds like there are people who would react from hearing the evil laugh. Does that mean there are undominated people inside?

Chekhov’s laugh
The Order force the vampires outside the blue barrier just before they order the delegates to vote for destruction
Exarch about to get die shouts order to vote for destruction and then remembers barrier blocks sound

[Xyril]

Well this is what judges are for, so while the council is voting the Order goes and finds a judge and tries to get an injunction issued so that the result can't be counted as final until such issues are decided. Obviously. :)

LOL, fair enough. I wasn't a huge Celia fan though, so I'd rather avoid creating an excuse to bring her back.

[gatemansgc]

so only durkon and hilgya are going to be able to enter. and minrah, if she's raised in time.

[SavageWombat]

I was hoping the puzzle would be solved by the forumites already - or at least a couple/three good possibilities.

[gatemansgc]

I was hoping the puzzle would be solved by the forumites already - or at least a couple/three good possibilities.

there will be some dang good theories by the time the next comic is actually posted lol

[Ridureyu]

The vampires not having a loophole in place to attack or kill Durkon/Hilgya/Minrah/The baby is going to bite them in the ass... unless they have a few spares they want to sacrifice. You know, each one vcould only get one attack in, but the good guys wouldn't be able to retaliate.

[tufttugger]

Can't the vampires just be killed to break their domination? Who needs dispel magic...

Edit: Nevermind, already brought up.

[Ironsmith]

Curiously absent detail: Gontor doesn't say that the blue barrier prevents magic or attacks from working, only that the instigator would be turned to stone should they attempt it. So all it takes is one Greater Dispel Magic and Hel's plan is foiled, as long as whoever does the casting doesn't mind being out of commission for a minute while the meeting is wrapped up.

[Snaaake]

I think a Bardic Song of Freedom would work. It produces a magical effect, but it is not classified as either a spell or supernatural effect. It just falls under the category of bardic music.

The 3.5 SRD says it's a spell-like ability. All of Bardic Music is either (Sp)ell-like or (Su)pernatural. Of course, as others have pointed out, Elan can't get inside to use it, and Song of Freedom only has a range of 30 feet.


My guess for the plot solution here is this part of the description of Dominate Person (which the vampire ability uses):

Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out.

Say, an obviously powerful priest of Thor we all know and love, complete with a forgotten holy relic, shows up at the council, and something happens in the ensuing chaos which would be against the nature of the dwarves attending the council. At least part of them would snap out, the question is, how many? Incidentally, this is an additional reason why it's a good thing the evil laughter and gloating can't be heard inside, as that might immediately snap some dominated dwarves away from voting yes on the main proposal, since they would now know it's going to lead to "Hel's final victory".

There is one that we already know works in OotS - victims can free themselves from a dominate, no magic required. So all the OotS have to do is give them a nudge, or convince them that what they're about to vote on would be against their nature as dwarves - which doesn't seem that hard, and a good setup for a dramatic speech by one of the order (likely Durkon or possibly Hilgya.)

So basically that, yes, but I would argue that Roy making the save against the domination at the Godsmoot was just him making the initial saving throw, not getting dominated and then breaking free. Thanh's case is a textbook example of breaking domination due to being ordered to do something against your nature though.

[Ganbatte]

What about items, by the way?
Like Haley and all her wands, what if she gives Durkon or Hilgiya a wand of Break Enchantment or something?