OOTS #1157 - The Discussion Thread.

[facw]

Well since he was a thrall, and thralls become free-willed when their master dies, it seems likely that he would have felt himself becoming free-willed with the death of Greg.
Alternatively, he's assuming, or he confirmed it magically.

Why are you assuming he was a thrall? He acted and sounded nothing like Durkon as a thrall. And given that Hel created his soul, it's not clear why Durkon wouldn't release him. IIRC, there's a limit on how many vampires Durkon could have in his thrall, so from that perspective releasing Gontor would make more sense as well, since they could control a greater number of vampire underlings.

[gatemansgc]

The vampires not having a loophole in place to attack or kill Durkon/Hilgya/Minrah/The baby is going to bite them in the ass... unless they have a few spares they want to sacrifice. You know, each one vcould only get one attack in, but the good guys wouldn't be able to retaliate.

it's lucky none of them seem to know the vampire acceleration spell, cause they could have vamped that daughter they had killed and had another thorn in the side of the good guys.

[Gift Jeraff]

How does the Exarch know Durkula died? The vampiress in blue fled before Belkar staked Durkula.

Either the Exarch was a thrall and became free-willed (seems possible since he appears to have matured significantly like how Durkon did when Malack was destroyed) or he learned from the dark-skinned female vampire (who was present at the battle versus Durkon and fled when Belkar slew Ponchula).

[Sebastian]

Both books and SRD refer to "undead creatures", so undead are RAW creatures.

Healing spells are definitely using a spell on a creature (they are also an attack, since you have to initiate a touch attack to land one on an unwilling subject).

Turn Undead is a supernatural ability.

AoE is less cut and dry, though I would bet that "attack with a fireball" is somewhere in the 3.5 rules.

I don't think the way around this is going to come from loopholes inside the room.

What about spraying holy water around? it is water, it's harmless. And if it happen to hit some vampire, well, accidents happens.and what are they even doing in the council room?

but what I think it will happen is

Spoiler

Show

that Durkon enter the inner chamber and make a stirring speech in Thor's name that give the council members another saving throw against Domination, with a big bonus. And at point the vampires can do nothing, they can't attack or use dominate again and if they exit the inner chamber must face two high level clerics, and the other dwarves. They are screwed

I think it would be thematically appropriate, and very OOTS-ish.

[truthwatcher]

Wait, Exarch specifically said casting a spell on a creature. So is there a reason Durkon couldn't simply cast Dispel Magic as an area dispel? Technically, he isn't targeting any creature, he is targeting an area.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

it's lucky none of them seem to know the vampire acceleration spell, cause they could have vamped that daughter they had killed and had another thorn in the side of the good guys.

Clerics don't need to know spells, just know of them and pray for it from their deity - and we know from Ponchula that the spell can be prayed for

Grey Wolf

[tyckspoon]

Chekhov’s laugh
The Order force the vampires outside the blue barrier just before they order the delegates to vote for destruction
Exarch about to get die shouts order to vote for destruction and then remembers barrier blocks sound

This is, presumably, what the prior instruction about 'vote Yes on the main topic' is for. The thing about 'obey verbal instructions from a Vampire' is likely just to make sure they have a fallback in case any relevant additional business is bought under discussion, or maybe if they need to try to force argument/discussion to end and bring the actual "should we destroy the world" topic to a vote. I can pretty readily imagine somebody realizing what's going on and trying to tie up the council in procedural/parliamentary rules nonsense because the protections and rules regarding the council don't permit more direct action. ("I am now going to read the entire list of dwarves I personally know who will be adversely affected by destroying the world.." -proceeds to filibuster by reading off the entire living roster of their extended clan-"... and that is why my vote is No.")

[Dion]

Barriers like that are usually domes or even spheres depending on wording

But they’re unlikely to block sunlight :-)

[Jasdoif]

Wait, Exarch specifically said casting a spell on a creature. So is there a reason Durkon couldn't simply cast Dispel Magic as an area dispel? Technically, he isn't targeting any creature, he is targeting an area.

When the words "technically" and "law" apply to the same scenario, it normally comes down to whether or not the law has bylaws that address the technicality. And given the trivial ease with which "a spell that affects a creature is considered a spell cast on that creature" could be a bylaw, I would advise against betting on the technicality.

[Synesthesy]

So, everything the heroes need to to is to talk to whoever directs the vote and make the question be "do you want to save the world from destruction or nay?"


-censored joke about Italian internal politic-

[Fyraltari]

So, everything the heroes need to to is to talk to whoever directs the vote and make the question be "do you want to save the world from destruction or nay?"

They don’t have Dvalin’s phone number.

[Xyril]

Clerics don't need to know spells, just know of them and pray for it from their deity - and we know from Ponchula that the spell can be prayed for

Grey Wolf

But how does that square with Durkula needing alone time to research the spell from Malaack's staff?

[Dion]

Five quataloos on: council votes to say “it is our will to destroy the world”, Dvalin breaks his oath and decides to *NOT* follow the will of the council. Dvalin is dishonored and goes to Hel.

(Five quataloos is about $2.50, right?)

Edit: oops. Added a word in **

[Fyraltari]

But how does that square with Durkula needing alone time to research the spell from Malaack's staff?

Clerics only have access to the spells their deity grants them. Hel did not know the spell in the staff until Durkon* was done researching it and so couldn’t grant it.

[Dion]

Clerics only have access to the spells their deity grants them. Hel did not know the spell in the staff until Durkon* was done researching it.

Yep. If falls under the house rule of “My cleric wants to cast this spell I found in Dragon magazine. No, it’s not in the PH.”

The DM gets to basically make up any rule he wants to handle it.

[Xyril]

Clerics only have access to the spells their deity grants them. Hel did not know the spell in the staff until Durkon* was done researching it and so couldn’t grant it.

Ah, I was thinking it might be something like that.

So that implies that, for example, (flawed) Mass Death Ward became known to not only Durkon, but Thor, and any of Thor's clerics who know to ask for it, the moment Durkon finished learning it from, or developing it in collaboration with Malaack. (The latter also implying that Nergal and his followers gained that spell concurrently.)

I suppose that also explains why the Order was so surprised Veldrina had the slots but didn't know Resurrection--my assumption at the time was that it was such a vital clerical spell that any cleric would learn about as soon as they were able.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But how does that square with Durkula needing alone time to research the spell from Malaack's staff?

Rules about spell research were written with wizards in mind, so the rules are really unclear of how a clerical spell development works. In OotS, it seems it requires each individual deity to have one of their cleric figure it out but, once it is, it's available to all their other clerics.

I suppose that also explains why the Order was so surprised Veldrina had the slots but didn't know Resurrection--my assumption at the time was that it was such a vital clerical spell that any cleric would learn about as soon as they were able.

No, that's because Veldrina is not a cleric, but the deity magic equivalent of a sorcerer - she can cast more spells per day than a cleric (one assumes), but can only pray for a few pre-selected ones. That kind of caster doesn't waste her spells known with any non-urgent ones, in general, because you need the urgent ones at your fingertips and can always depend on scrolls and the like for anything that can wait (dead people seldom get deader so fast you need to have resurrection this very minute)

Grey Wolf

[AutomatedTeller]

I dunno - I don't see being turned to stone stopping either Minrah or Durkon from casting dispell magic, unless that also disrupts the spell. I mean, they've already died - what's being temporarily turned to stone?

[tyckspoon]

So, everything the heroes need to to is to talk to whoever directs the vote and make the question be "do you want to save the world from destruction or nay?"

That seems like it would work - if you can't beat the situation, change the parameters of the situation. Subverting the pre-set instruction to break the vampires' plan has an appealing shape to it.

[Jasdoif]

I suppose that also explains why the Order was so surprised Veldrina had the slots but didn't know Resurrection--my assumption at the time was that it was such a vital clerical spell that any cleric would learn about as soon as they were able.

Veldrina's not a cleric, she's a favored soul; she knows a very limited number of cleric spells of each level, in exchange for not having to decide in advance how many of each she can cast each day. Pretty much the same as the difference between a wizard and a sorcerer.

[Flame of Anor]

Neat defenses! If only they had managed a permanent protection from evil effect—but I suppose hind-Spot is natural 20/20.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Neat defenses! If only they had managed a permanent protection from evil effect—but I suppose hind-Spot is natural 20/20.

It's a meeting for top-level politicians. I'd expect a fair number of them to be Evil, and would end with massive headaches from the experience.

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

Man, whoever came up with this orange/blue scheme really didn't think it through. Leaving a gap between undoing spells and barring spellcasting sounds like the sort of thing someone should have exploited before.

Notably, the prismatic wall spell, upon which these defenses seem loosely based, does not feature interstitial spaces between the various sub-walls.

[JavaScribe]

You're assuming Dvalin will be physically in the council chamber, then?

The gods have magical senses and at least occasional contact with their followers. It's certainly possible Dvalin isn't strong enough to sense the deception, isn't social enough to be warned by other involved gods like Thor, or sufficiently stuck on the letter of his oath for that to make no difference.

But I am not assuming he will be physically present in the chamber and am unclear on why you think I would be. I am simply curious about the details of how their plan is intended to work.

[Xyril]

Veldrina's not a cleric, she's a favored soul; she knows a very limited number of cleric spells of each level, in exchange for not having to decide in advance how many of each she can cast each day.

No, that's because Veldrina is not a cleric, but the deity magic equivalent of a sorcerer - she can cast more spells per day than a cleric (one assumes), but can only pray for a few pre-selected ones. That kind of caster doesn't waste her spells known with any non-urgent ones, in general, because you need the urgent ones at your fingertips and can always depend on scrolls and the like for anything that can wait (dead people seldom get deader so fast you need to have resurrection this very minute)

Grey Wolf

I know. My point is, when they thought she was a cleric, and she confirmed that she could cast Res-level spells, they assumed from that information that she must have it.

Err, just to clarify it a bit more in case it's necessary, the "she's not a cleric, she's the favored soul of her minor deity" was extra information (or more accurately, corrective information that refuted an assumption that they made) needed to explain an apparent inconsistency to Roy and Durkon*--that inconsistency being "Veldrina is a cleric with enough levels to cast Resurrection" and "Veldrina does not have access to Resurrection." The fact that Roy and Durkon* expected her to know have access Resurrection implied that they expected that most or all clerics (again, I know she wasn't a cleric, but Roy and Durkon* thought she was at time) who could have that spell would have that spell. At the time, I thought it was a matter of them not believing that a cleric would prioritize other spells of that level--Vel's comments about being "temple-certified" and having to "master" particular spells reinforced the idea of having to learn specific spells, even though the favored soul system is separate.

Thanks to both of you for sharing what you believed was new and relevant info for me, though. It's a situation where, much like Roy and Durkon, your motivations properly analyzed based on what you thought you knew at the time, and not based on the actual facts if they turn out a few panels later to be inconsistent with prior assumptions.

[zimmerwald1915]

It's a meeting for top-level politicians. I'd expect a fair number of them to be Evil, and would end with massive headaches from the experience.

Grey Wolf

If they can manage a permanent MCaE (PfE is single-target, not an area spell), they can also probably manage permanent MCaG, L, and C fields too. Still leaves the TN delegates with an advantage, but that's not such a bad thing from certain perspectives.

[Ruck]

Five quataloos on: council votes to say “it is our will to destroy the world”, Dvalin breaks his oath and decides to *NOT* follow the will of the council. Dvalin is dishonored and goes to Hel.

(Five quataloos is about $2.50, right?)

Edit: oops. Added a word in **

I'll take that bet, as I know of no procedure for an ascended demigod to go directly to Hel, let alone that this solution completely sidelines the Order. And I could use half a hamburger.

[Kish]

I'll take that bet if Dion wants to bet with gold pieces instead of "quatloos."

[Xyril]

I'll take that bet, as I know of no procedure for an ascended demigod to go directly to Hel, let alone that this solution completely sidelines the Order. And I could use half a hamburger.

That's an interesting question. Was Dvalin raised to demi-godhood while he was still alive, or was he deified after his death? I could see that making an important distinction--if the former, there's really no legitimate argument that he's one of the "dwarven dead," dishonored or not, but if the latter, then it raises the question of whether his deadness or his demi-godness take precedence.

For the sake of keeping the controversy in play, let's assume he died first. Then this also raises the question of whether being dishonored after his death matters. The rules for dwarves seems to be that they specifically have to die with honor--Durkon's mom, Minrah, and others specifically worried that raising a dwarf who died in combat opened up the risk that they die again, under less favorable circumstances, and punch their ticket straight to Hel. This strongly implies that the cumulative honor or dishonor of their lives doesn't matter that much--basically, dwarves try to be honorable all the time because they could die at any time. If you're honorable your whole life and die in a mining accident, you go to Hel; if you're mostly dishonorable, but die going after a tree, you go to Valhalla.

So if your honor before the moment of death doesn't matter all that much, can we really assume that your conduct after death matters either? Keep in mind, the examples of dishonorable deaths we were given haven't been moments where the dwarf in question exhibited any particularly bad traits--treachery, cowardice, cruelty, etc--they simply weren't actively being brave or honorable at that moment. Using that same standard, Dvalin must have had moments in his demi-god life where he was just hanging out, being fairly unremarkable; however, none of these have given Hel the opportunity to pull her lever on him.

[Gnoman]

What about items, by the way?
Like Haley and all her wands, what if she gives Durkon or Hilgiya a wand of Break Enchantment or something?

Casting from wands, staffs, scrolls, or magic pants is no different from casting from a spell slot. You're still casting a spell.