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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Mar 2017

    Post Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF] [PEACH] [PLAYTEST]

    I'm fairly new here but I've been working on this class for a while now. Heard that this is a good place to get reviews on this kinda stuff.
    Hoping to make a full set of similarly self contained but mechanically dense classes in the future. Anyway, without further due:

    The Mage Blade


    The mage blade is a arcane gish(spellcasting warrior) that's based around 3 interconnected concepts:
    • Spellfire
    • Athames
    • Spells

    Spellfire
    The ability to absorb and redirect magic. The absorbed energy can then be used to damage your foes or heal your allies. Initially weak, in both absorption capacity and energy output.
    It slowly becomes an important catalyst for your athames and spells, eventually allowing for the recharging of spell slots with stored energy.

    Athames
    Soulbound conduits of magic. Athames are two blades that have been enchanted in order to aid in both casting and absorbing magic. Their power waxes and wains with the amount of spellfire that has been stored. The mage blade's low BAB (10) is supplemented by the attack twice with both athames in hand and improve their chance to hit with knowledge skills and the knowledge devotion feat.

    Spells
    The mage blade's spell list mainly focuses on buffing, debuffing and support with a dash of damage spells thrown in. Despite the spell list being nothing to sneeze at... it has come at a cost.
    While still a full caster, their spell progression is slow and their max spell capacity being even smaller (maxing at 4 casts per day, unable to gain additional bonus spells with a higher casting stat (Int).

    If this sounds interesting to you, a link to the PDF is below (I'll change it to a proper link when I've made enough posts):
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByP...JzX0NHUTg/view
    ~Hexeract
    Last edited by Hexeract; 2019-04-30 at 01:14 PM. Reason: Adding PDF as a proper link.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2017

    Default Re: Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF]

    If anyone has any questions or feedback (good or bad) feel free to say something! I'll answer as soon as I can!

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Mar 2017

    Default Re: Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF]

    Anyone have anything to say? Is the concept good? Bad? What about advice on playing the class? Been playtesting it for about a year now... so that's a thought.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Jan 2017

    Default Re: Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF] [PEACH]

    Alright, let's take a look.

    Table is a work of art.

    Chassis: d8 hit die, simple/martial weapons, light armor, but lowest BAB progression. To compensate for that, I would ordinarily expect it to be using touch attack spells or have some source of accuracy- note to check this later
    Full spellcasting.
    Int-based, 2+Int skills makes sense.

    Restrictions: "No multiclassing" is something I'm always uncertain about, mostly because I usually see it used to keep the class from being "too powerful" in dips- it's often a sign of front-loaded features.

    Weakness: Something about absorption, sure. How does this interact with Antimagic Field- are you stunned again each round you are in the effect? I would suggest granting a Will Save (against the spell's DC) to resist this, then you don't need to save again on a success.

    Spells: Half CL is a penalty that scales up over time, note. No bonus spells per day is odd but sure. Athame seems basically required for casting with it- you're gimped without it. Looks like warmagestyle magic.
    Delayed by 2 levels compared to Wizard, 1 compared to Sorcerer.

    Athame:
    Contradiction here, quoting both parts:
    They can have only up to 2 athames; One at level 1 and another at level 4.
    A mage blade can create another athame by performing the ceremony again for a maximum of two athames at levels 1 and 5 respectively.
    Missing mention of +1 cap at level 4.
    Weapon ability replication looks fine.

    Looks like a fine effect.


    ---------------Magefire: ---------------------
    Absorption check looks fine, and tbh a lot of spellcasters should be able to do something like this counterspell-wise. I would add a small additional bonus to this check- perhaps +2-4 - since it's fairly situational in place of doing something proactive.

    Metamagic cost reduction is a bit yikes- it costs 4 points to Empower all your spells, or 8 for a free Quicken. It's good that you specifically called out Persist, but metamagic stacking can get a little ridiculous. Furthermore, trading health for metamagic is something I generally avoid. I'd look up the Mailman build, because this ability seems purpose-built for it. Example mentions Silent Spell, but does not do the math properly.

    Energy blast range scaling needs adjustment- it's nearly unusable at level 1. Suggest close (25 + 5 ft/2 levels) instead. Also, fix the save DC to something that scales naturally with level: 10 + level/2 + stat.
    Also trying to deal 4x level in damage burst will run you out of points hilariously fast. I'm not sure that this compares with just casting spells.
    Edit: Having both a ranged touch attack roll and a Reflex save seems wrong.

    Healing on an arcane caster is ehhhh in my opinion, but I have Strong Feelings about healing balance in Pathfinder so I'll let it go.

    Harmony with the Weave: Looks good, makes sense.

    Improved Absorption: I feel as though this feature needs an overhaul:
    -Don't need to mention Spellcraft checks, anyone can make them if they see the caster (and if you don't see the spell coming you shouldn't get the info in my option)
    -"The Spellblade no longer needs to ready an action to absorb spells, and may do so as an free action that they may take even if surprised." -
    "They take a -4 penalty to the check to absorb, plus an additional -2 penalty for each previous spell they have absorbed since the end of their last turn". I would avoid adding too much scaling effects within a single feature, since it makes it more difficult to determine how your abilities progress as you level up. In addition, I think there should be some penalty to being surprised vs. taking the time to ready the action. I would also avoid the concentration check at the start of the turn; if the player forgets to use this each round "just in case", they shouldn't be punished, since the whole point of the feature is that you don't need to decide to absorb in advance.
    -The stuff about area effect absorption is messy. Really messy. It doesn't work with oversized PCs, I don't understand the cost vs. absorption ratios... I would drop this for now.

    10th level upgrade: See my note about scaling DCs earlier.

    Inner Reserve: I really don't like this in combination with paying hp for magefire points; it busts out-of-combat healing wide open. Fine-ish otherwise.

    Chain Magefire looks fine.

    Spell Retention: Either put a time cap, quantity cap, or w/e on this, but I don't like being able to "stock up" on whatever spells you like then releasing them as a standard action.

    --------------------Magefire done -------

    Knowledge Devotion: I guess? This class doesn't feel like it's that good in melee to me. No/weak armor, reliant on buffs to power up, would require MAD, poor BAB. Cute with Magefire I guess.

    Broaden Spell List: Not sure I like the implementation- you have to pick spells you can't even cast yet, and won't for a dozen levels. I'd just swap this for baseline Advanced Learning, and pick spells as you level. Usefulness varies depending on what level you expect the adventure to end at.

    Athame Dual Wielder: I guess? Looks fine? I don't really understand how this works. A poor BAB class like this can't really afford much in the way of attack penalties. The bit about Haste just confuses me.

    Shimmering Shield: Ironically does not provide a shield bonus. Bonus is decent, depending on how many points you can save up.

    Mage Blade Feats: I don't recognize half of these. Still, bypassing prerequisites is OK but you still need to take the feats, so this is probably balanced? Maybe? Depends on the feats.

    Slice Through Wardings: Ehhh. If this bypasses enhancement bonuses, it's okay, but spending 2 points per attack is tremendously inefficient given the poor per-attack damage that this class seems to have.

    Athame Burst: I'd need to see some numbers to know that this is better than Fireball-equivalent damage.

    Spell List: I'm petering out, but I note a mix of buffs, utility buffs, and direct AoE. Oddly includes Delayed Blast Fireball but not Fireball itself.

    Overall:
    The whole Magefire dealy is pretty cool, and it looks like you're trying to make a class that can operate both in melee or with spells- however, it's held massively back in melee by its poor defenses (Health, armor) and weak BAB; I don't really expect it to take hits well. On the other hand, it's a full caster with access to a massive number of spells, and what it lacks in high-impact magic or more esoteric at times (Fireball), it makes up for in having access to an entire spell list at once, giving it insane mid-combat spellcasting options.
    It has so many spells and abilities that let it enter melee and act like a fighter, but I'm not convinced that doing so is better than flinging spells from a distance; this is a full caster, and is probably around tier 2 just off that strength.

    Even with full Knowledge Devotion, this class barely hits +15 base attack bonus compared to a full BAB class's 20, and the enhancement bonus on the athame a) is limited by the ability to absorb magefire levels and not use it on other things and b) does not beat access to dedicated weapon by WBL.
    Last edited by aimlessPolymath; 2019-03-07 at 07:08 PM.
    My one piece of homebrew: The Shaman. A Druid replacement with more powerlevel control.
    The bargain bin- malfunctioning, missing, and broken magic items.
    Spirit Barbarian: The Barbarian, with heavy elements from the Shaman. Complete up to level 17.
    The Priest: A cleric reword which ran out of steam. Still a fun prestige class suitable for E6.
    The Coward: Not every hero can fight.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Mar 2017

    Default Re: Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF] [PEACH]

    Athame:
    Contradiction here, quoting both parts:
    "They can have only up to 2 athames; One at level 1 and another at level 4."
    "A mage blade can create another athame by performing the ceremony again for a maximum of two athames at levels 1 and 5 respectively."
    Missing mention of +1 cap at level 4.
    Weapon ability replication looks fine.
    Damn, thought I fixed that. Nice catch though.
    Also, the +1 cap at level 4 is the initial bonus you receive... kinda worded it in a weird way.

    ---------------Magefire: ---------------------
    Absorption check looks fine, and tbh a lot of spellcasters should be able to do something like this counterspell-wise. I would add a small additional bonus to this check- perhaps +2-4 - since it's fairly situational in place of doing something proactive.
    You can actually use the enhancement bonuses on your athame and add it to the check, encouraging you to stay at half of your spellfire energy(point?) capacity. Being even one point over capacity would prevent the absorption of the spell... actually, did I even openly state that?

    ...

    Ok, guess I just assumed that people would think the same thing... I'll need to clarify that in the document.

    Also, the reason why the damage of spellfire is on the lower side of things is because it's sort of a big damaging attack opens up more space for spell absorption that you save up when enemy magic users are scarce but can spam at higher levels when they are much more abundant.

    Energy blast range scaling needs adjustment- it's nearly unusable at level 1. Suggest close (25 + 5 ft/2 levels) instead. Also, fix the save DC to something that scales naturally with level: 10 + level/2 + stat.
    Also dealing 4x level in damage burst will run you out of points hilariously fast. I'm not sure that this compares with just casting spells.
    Ok, I'm keeping the range the same at early... mostly because it's the healing that's the most useful at that point. That said... I have considered increasing the damage per spellfire point by 2, JUST the damage mind you. Also, I'm ok with keeping the DC's for the ability as is due to how many hoops you need to jump through just to use it.

    But yeah, you can use spellfire with the base amount of points you receive each day, an amount that's half your capacity... going below that in a pinch is going to cost you though, not only are you now giving up a nice heal for you or a party member you are also loosing AC and your enhancement bonuses on your athames. But sometimes you need that damage and you need it now, no fudged roles on five d10's or something... just enough to kill the big bad. That's what it's for. To end a fight, not to start one. Otherwise, use the energy you've absorbed.

    "They take a -4 penalty to the check to absorb, plus an additional -2 penalty for each previous spell they have absorbed since the end of their last turn". I would avoid adding too much scaling effects within a single feature, since it makes it more difficult to determine how your abilities progress as you level up. In addition, I think there should be some penalty to being surprised vs. taking the time to ready the action. I would also avoid the concentration check at the start of the turn; if the player forgets to use this each round "just in case", they shouldn't be punished, since the whole point of the feature is that you don't need to decide to absorb in advance.
    Ok, not sure what you mean by the "-4 penalty to the check to absorb, plus an additional -2 penalty for each previous spell they have absorbed since the end of their last turn".

    Once you gain improved absorption, you can start storing "Charges" of spell absorption. That means if you have 2 charges, you can chose to absorb 2 spells of any level provided they don't exceed your maximum capacity or the maximum spell level you can absorb. Once those charges are gone or you want to refresh them, you can make the concentration check again.

    Also, since spell absorption is such a strong skill to have one of the challenges to refreshing your charges comes from keeping track of the amount you have and positioning yourself to avoid being swarmed while refreshing them. So yeah, the punishment is here to stay. Just gotta learn to play around it.

    Spell Retention: Either put a time cap, quantity cap, or w/e on this, but I don't like being able to "stock up" on whatever spells you like then releasing them as a standard action.
    There is a cap, it's 24 hours... also you do realize you can only use one of those spells per round, right?
    ...
    Might need to make that more clear in the document.

    Knowledge Devotion: I guess? This class doesn't feel like it's that good in melee to me. No/weak armor, reliant on buffs to power up, would require MAD, poor BAB. Cute with Magefire I guess.
    Athame Dual Wielder: I guess? Looks fine? I don't really understand how this works. A poor BAB class like this can't really afford much in the way of attack penalties. The bit about Haste just confuses me.
    Ok, so the class is meant to stay on the fringes of combat casting buffs/debuffs, softening up foes... or they can save their spells for bigger encounters, using their athames to strike twice as a standard action and giving themselves various combat buffs to survive in melee.

    For instance, the silver/gold dragonmail spells in conjunction with a well managed shimmering shield makes for a pretty solid defense. Add with spells like magic vestment and repelling shield and you can tank with the best of them... provided you have the spell slots to do it.

    Actually, I'll include some of the spell combos I've discovered while testing the class at the end of this.

    Slice Through Wardings: Ehhh. If this bypasses enhancement bonuses, it's okay, but spending 2 points per attack is tremendously inefficient given the poor per-attack damage that this class seems to have.

    Athame Burst: I'd need to see some numbers to know that this is better than Fireball-equivalent damage.
    Slice through wardings is more of a mid combat debuff mixed in with releasing some spellfire capacity, you mainly want it for that empty space. Also should point out that it lasts for a standard attack... that means that if you are using both athames and they are light, that's two quick attacks back to back.

    Now, regarding athame burst. That is a single attack that hits many enemies... that means spells that boost damage or spread an effect to the next enemy you hit are effected... that's potent and flexible.
    Kind of a... "make of it what you will" ability. Also pairs really well with the bloody toughness homebrew feat.

    In fact, a good chunk of the class's non-spell damage comes from the enhancement abilities you can add, (like shocking, flaming, ect.)
    Really a big fan of the more utility ones, so feel free to check them out on page 7.


    Ok, as promised, here are those spell combos:

    Protective Interposition + Status, Greater: Instant body swap with bonuses for both people

    Repelling Shield: Depending on your DM, it may open up enemies to attacks of opportunity from you and your allies. Fun to mix with the tail slap spell. Leaves one hell of a dent.

    Healing Lorecall + Healing Spirit + the augment healing feat: Great for mid fight healing and also cures minor ailments.

    Stat boosting spells + the ability enhancer feat: Makes them more potent with an extra +2 to stats.

    Debuff spells + Slashing Dispel/Magical Backlash: Great for those enemies that stack buffs.

    Snake's Swiftness, Mass + having friends: Lets the team attack on your turn. The barbarian will love you for that.

    Wings of Cover/Alter Fortune + moments of "Nope": Let's you survive to gish another day.

    Redirect Spell + Spellfire's absorption + A friend: Tank spells in their stead. Great for catching the big bad off guard.

    Glory of the Martyr + any of your healing options: Keep the real damage caster alive... just a bit longer. Don't over use it.

    Indomitability + Contingency + Undying Vigor of the Dragonlords(get it, it's really good!): It's basically a second wind. Now, don't blow it.

    Arcane Fusion: Two spells, one slot.

    Arcane Fusion, Greater: Two spells, one slot 2: electric boogaloo.

    The arcane fusion spells + Arcane Spellsurge + the athame dual weilder class ability: GISH HARDER THAN EVER BEFORE.

    Anyway, there are more spell combos that exist but I'll leave those up to you to find.

    ~Hexeract

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Jan 2017

    Default Re: Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF] [PEACH]

    Going to hit some of the points:

    At level 4 the athame gains a +1 enhancement bonus for every 4 magefire points they have stored.
    There's no initial cap described in this sentence.

    You can actually use the enhancement bonuses on your athame and add it to the check, encouraging you to stay at half of your spellfire energy(point?) capacity. Being even one point over capacity would prevent the absorption of the spell... actually, did I even openly state that?

    ...

    Ok, guess I just assumed that people would think the same thing... I'll need to clarify that in the document.

    Also, the reason why the damage of spellfire is on the lower side of things is because it's sort of a big damaging attack opens up more space for spell absorption that you save up when enemy magic users are scarce but can spam at higher levels when they are much more abundant.
    I honestly think the more important part of absorption is that you can use it to negate spells used against you, trading actions 1-1 to a limited extent. In combat, you're not going to be able to reliably get more than 1-2 spells absorbed before the enemy spellcaster is either dead or targetting someone else with spells. If you're getting the chance to absorb spells, the points are just icing on the cake.

    Also, I'm ok with keeping the DC's for the ability as is due to how many hoops you need to jump through just to use it.
    On second glance, I'd drop the DCs completely given that you already need to make a ranged touch attack.

    Ok, not sure what you mean by the "-4 penalty to the check to absorb, plus an additional -2 penalty for each previous spell they have absorbed since the end of their last turn".

    Once you gain improved absorption, you can start storing "Charges" of spell absorption. That means if you have 2 charges, you can chose to absorb 2 spells of any level provided they don't exceed your maximum capacity or the maximum spell level you can absorb. Once those charges are gone or you want to refresh them, you can make the concentration check again.

    Also, since spell absorption is such a strong skill to have one of the challenges to refreshing your charges comes from keeping track of the amount you have and positioning yourself to avoid being swarmed while refreshing them. So yeah, the punishment is here to stay. Just gotta learn to play around it.
    To clarify, the -4 penalty is a suggestion for a way to redesign the ability.
    These are the problems I have with it:
    -You need to spend a free action at the start of your turn to make the Concentration check. Then, you need to make another check later on to actually absorb the spell. To me, this says that we can condense at least one of these checks into the other to reduce unnecessary rolling during combat. The -4 penalty system is a suggested alternative to this; rather than concentrating to gain charges, you can attempt to counter on the fly but at a substantial penalty.
    -If you aren't provoke attacks of opportunity (such as if not in melee), this is an absurd number of charges- you're practically immune to spells for the round, and can renew the charges each turn with an essentially trivial Concentration check. The -4 penalty is a suggested solution- you aren't as good as if you had readied an action to protect yourself. Auto-winning spell duels is no joke.

    My confusion was not with the free reaction stuff, it's with this:
    They can now use 2x charges per spell to absorb any spells (even aoe) effecting a 15×15 foot square around them for half the spell level (round down)
    2x charges per spell? Charges of... the automatic absorption? Can you not ready an action to do this? How does the 15x15 foot square scale with larger-than-Medium creatures? Do you absorb the whole spell in the case of area of effect spells? "For half the spell level"....? This sentence needs to be edited for clarity.

    There is a cap, it's 24 hours... also you do realize you can only use one of those spells per round, right?
    ...
    Might need to make that more clear in the document.
    The 24 hour limit is not made clear at all.
    With it, I have no problems.

    For instance, the silver/gold dragonmail spells in conjunction with a well managed shimmering shield makes for a pretty solid defense. Add with spells like magic vestment and repelling shield and you can tank with the best of them... provided you have the spell slots to do it.
    Fair point on the AC bonuses you can stack, but before they arrive, the class is notably squishy.
    Even after (and ignoring the non-AC threats), those combined bonuses total about 32 AC at level 20 (10 + 9 from dragonmail + 4 from vestment (mail starts at +1 bonus) + 4 from shield + 5 from deflection bonus). This is passable; low-attack monsters need to roll about an 11 to hit you.

    Now, regarding athame burst. That is a single attack that hits many enemies... that means spells that boost damage or spread an effect to the next enemy you hit are effected... that's potent and flexible.
    Kind of a... "make of it what you will" ability. Also pairs really well with the bloody toughness homebrew feat.
    To beat a 15d6 Fireball (a 3rd level spell), you must deal an average of over 50 damage in one attack. Once again, I would need to see some numerical estimates for the damage of one attack in order to really evaluate this.

    Slice through wardings is more of a mid combat debuff mixed in with releasing some spellfire capacity, you mainly want it for that empty space. Also should point out that it lasts for a standard attack... that means that if you are using both athames and they are light, that's two quick attacks back to back.
    My reading is that it lasts for an attack as in an attack roll, not an attack action. I don't understand what you mean by the bolded portion. I'm not sure how often you see spellcasting getting absorbed, but it takes approximately 2 maximum-level spells absorbed before you hit your maximum capacity after starting from half capacity; by that point, I would expect an enemy spellcaster to have switched to doing something else given that the first tactic is not working.

    In fact, a good chunk of the class's non-spell damage comes from the enhancement abilities you can add, (like shocking, flaming, ect.)
    If a primary class feature can be replicated by WBL, I generally don't consider it to be significant unless you're really breaking WBL. This really doesn't.

    Spell combos
    As I said, the spellcasting ability of this class is absolutely fine (and honestly probably too much due to automatically knowing the whole spell list); it's the melee combat that I have a problem with.
    My one piece of homebrew: The Shaman. A Druid replacement with more powerlevel control.
    The bargain bin- malfunctioning, missing, and broken magic items.
    Spirit Barbarian: The Barbarian, with heavy elements from the Shaman. Complete up to level 17.
    The Priest: A cleric reword which ran out of steam. Still a fun prestige class suitable for E6.
    The Coward: Not every hero can fight.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Mar 2017

    Default Re: Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF] [PEACH]

    Ok, it's been a bit... but I'm back.

    So, I thought about what @aimlessPolymath suggested.
    Really took my time before responding, because let's face it... my initial response was way too hasty.

    I've made some changes to some abilities while clarifying and moving around the order of others. Here are the changes in no particular order:

    Magefire: Damage and healing has been buffed by 2 across the board.
    Hp to magefire exchange rate has been changed from 8hp per point to 10.
    Ranged attack made into just a touch attack, no reflex save.

    Improved absorption: Changed from a charge based system to instead use the stacking DC penalties idea that was proposed earlier.

    Spell Retention: Now clarifies the 24 hour limit on absorbed spells.

    Athame: Reordered and clarified the dialog for easier understanding.

    Broaden Spell List: Changed from a class ability to an addendum regarding spells, dialog was also rewritten for celerity.

    Weakness: Antimagical effects on the class rewritten for celerity, includes an example and also includes the suggested will save idea regarding the stun.

    Slice Through Wardings: Moved to 3rd level and changed to a touch attack buff for athames and costs 1 magefire point for 2 rounds of use. Should actually make melee viable... maybe not in raw damage but in reliability.

    Ahame burst: Innate touch attack properties removed due to slice through wardings, dialogue rewritten for celerity, number of uses increased to full INT bonus instead of half and now allows the use of feats like intimidating strike and power attack... but at the cost of the second strike if being used in conjunction with athame dual wielder.

    Athame Dual Wielder: Language rewritten for celerity and now includes an example.

    Hope that covers things for now. Keep the feedback coming!

    ~Hexeract

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Mar 2017

    Default Re: Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF] [PEACH]

    Oh before I forget, there were 3 spells that were changed in the spell list:

    "Grease" was swapped for "Magic Savant"
    Mainly did this because grease is super situational and magic savant allows for more wand usage at lower levels, allowing them function as a more traditional caster at lower levels while waiting for the class abilities to kick in.

    "Wraithstrike" was swapped for "Primal Instinct" and "Brilliant Blade" was swapped for "Primal Speed"
    Wanted to phase out the solo touch attack spells due to the changes with the slice through wardings ability, also the primal spells are super fun.

    ~Hexeract

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Mar 2017

    Default Re: Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF] [PEACH]

    Ok, it's been a while. A few weeks back I realized that despite the mage blade being able to use two weapons and everything... you could only apply one weapon buffing spell per cast.
    Not much fun when you burn one of your already limited spell slots to enchant your dual daggers only to realize just one of them is on fire.
    While I did initially "fix" that with the original passive for the mages edge paired weapons (found on page 7), all that did was lock the player into using them.
    So I made that aspect of the blades an innate feature to athames as a whole. This can be found at the end of the ability overview for the athame dual wielding ability (found on page 3).

    Additionally, when a mage blade casts magic that affects one athame, they can
    choose to let the spell also affect the other athame without costing an additional
    spell slot. This effect only works if both weapons are athames.
    However, leaving it at that would leave the mage's edge weapons without anything interesting to mess around with.
    So, I gave them a new ability. Innate wand chambers and the ability to activate the wand in an athame at range as long as you are wielding the other athame and are in line of sight of both the athame and the target (found on page 3).

    Both weapons have a hidden wand chamber. A wand chamber is a thin, cylindrical slot on the handle of a weapon that can hold a single wand.
    When a wand is loaded in the chamber, it is considered ready and can be activated without having to drop the weapon. Changing the wand in
    the chamber is a full-round action. However if both weapons are athames, you can choose to activate the wand in one athame at range
    provided it's within line-of-sight and you are holding the opposite athame. The spell originates from the respective wand's/athame's position.
    Not a big update, but it's worth bringing up now that I have the time.
    Still interested in any feedback regarding the class or any playtests with it.
    I'd also be interested in joining any games that are willing to let me test it out (schedule permitting).

    ~Hexeract, signing off.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Mar 2017

    frown Re: Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF] [PEACH]

    Does anyone have any thoughts, comments or opinions regarding the adjustments to the class? Just trying to get a better idea of what people think about it.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Jan 2017

    Default Re: Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF] [PEACH]

    Just going to hit a second reread.
    Athame: I think I would model this after Familiars, and cut the prep time to 24 hours, unless there's a significant lore reason not to; you're already eating a large hit in gold/xp, so this can go from "day off" to "completely unable to recreate", depending on time pressure.
    Spell list: Would move this section to just after the spellcasting section.
    Absorption: You mentioned to me here that if you're over half capacity, you can't absorb spells (not even to negate them); this doesn't seem to show up in the doc.
    You can actually use the enhancement bonuses on your athame and add it to the check, encouraging you to stay at half of your spellfire energy(point?) capacity. Being even one point over capacity would prevent the absorption of the spell... actually, did I even openly state that?
    Magefire blast: I'm reiterating that the range should be standardized to constant (30/60 ft, like Eldritch Blast) or spell-scaling (25 + 5/2 lvls) range; linearly scaling range means this ability massively shifts its range within the first 2-3 levels, but then later on the scaling becomes irrelevant and unnoticable.
    Athame Dual Wielder is an awkwardly worded version of existing abilities; Double Hit/Dual Strike/Double Strike(Pathfinder) + TWF. It functions confusingly when you already have those feats, and stacks an attack roll penalty on an already-poor-BAB class. I'd advise you to replace it with bonus feats. Really, having an additional athame and specifically TWF-ing is enough of a feat investment that I don't think you should force all mageblades to do it; "Additional Athame" should be a feat instead.

    Slice Through Wardings is the only thing that salvages this class's accuracy, and looks pretty inexpensive. It's also the main draw for this class to use athames.
    Shimmering Shield/Athame: There's an issue here. The issue is that both these features ask you to have your internal spellfire reserve as high as possible; however, in order to maintain your spell immunity, you need to spend spellfire in order to free up space. In effect, you have half your "real" absorption capacity.
    Shimmering Shield: The issue with this feature specifically, to some extent, is that it's an unreliable source of a bonus that anyone can obtain reliably by using magic items. If they didn't need their athame to Slice Through Wardings, I would expect mageblades to just use a Ring of Deflection and a regular weapon to free up their available capacity.

    Editing: There's some issues with tense, switching between third person "the mage blade/they" and second person "you".
    My one piece of homebrew: The Shaman. A Druid replacement with more powerlevel control.
    The bargain bin- malfunctioning, missing, and broken magic items.
    Spirit Barbarian: The Barbarian, with heavy elements from the Shaman. Complete up to level 17.
    The Priest: A cleric reword which ran out of steam. Still a fun prestige class suitable for E6.
    The Coward: Not every hero can fight.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2017

    d20 Re: Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF] [PEACH]

    Athame:
    Yeah, the 3 day time requirement was something I've been on the fence about for a while. 24 hours is a better time overall, but it's nice to have a confirmation regarding it. I'll change this in the future.

    Spell list:
    Regarding the placement, that's fair. I'll make those adjustments in the future.

    Absorption:
    I don't recall saying that you can't absorb spells over half capacity.
    I do however recall saying it's not always a good idea if you are up against enemy spell casters or magic using monsters. So yeah, not a hard counter.

    Magefire blast:
    Regarding the range, that's fair... however I really want to have a punishing early game for the class and I feel the low starting range is part of achieving that feeling. I might however make the lowest starting 15-20

    Athame Dual Wielder:
    Yes, this is heavily based on Dual strike and the TWF tree. However I found that most builds that use TWF to leave somethings lacking as opposed to two handed weapon builds, requiring a bigger money, feat and at times, ability score investment to even get close. That's why I made this class ability, to have a glimpse into a version that was less clunky in that aspect.
    Now, regarding the BaB scaling. That is intentional. Remember how I said that the spell list and the class abilities were heavily intertwined? Let's say that you needed to save on spell slots or were up against a magic resistant enemy. You could allocate a spell or two into shimmering shield to boost your AC then cast the spell Tenser’s transformation to become a really bursty melee fighter, a tactic that only becomes even more potent if you've been using other buffs and athame enhancements.

    In hindsight, I now realize that this could lead to a lot of die rolling if you are playing in-person with physical dice...

    You also mentioned that some people might not want to play a dual wielding mage blade, and to tell the truth that concept slipped my mind.
    While I don't want to rewrite everything from the ground up, I could add an addendum in the future for two alternate class features, one for use with a single two handed weapon and the other for a one handed weapon and a shield/buckler. Honestly, I'm more interested in the shield one.

    Also thinking of removing the restriction of just slashing and piercing weapons in regards to what can and can't become an athame.

    Slice Through Wardings:
    Glad you seem to like what you see with the changes to this one.
    Mainly did this for transparency's sake, there were actually several spells that did the same thing for a similar time/spell slot/magefire point investment, but it became clear that recognizing the connection between the two was a bit much at times. So yeah, did this instead.

    Shimmering Shield:
    I wanted to go for a dynamic and changing system for this, absorb too many spells without venting them and your ability to deal with magic is weakened, however your physical defense (AC) increases encouraging you
    to close the gap and deal with the threat. This whole encouragement for staying balanced is further helped by the new rework for slice through wardings, giving you an outlet for the energy if an attack, healing or spell recovery in not necessary or wanted at the time.

    Editing:
    Oh, nice catch. It's an old document, so there have been several changes in focus before settling on what we see now. So I'll take care of that.

    All in all, I'm really thankful of the feedback given and really want to hear any stories of people trying it out, because there's no kinda test like a field test! Anyway, thanks for your time.

    ~Hexeract
    Last edited by Hexeract; 2019-05-18 at 09:11 AM. Reason: spelling

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF] [PEACH]

    Post #5:

    You can actually use the enhancement bonuses on your athame and add it to the check, encouraging you to stay at half of your spellfire energy(point?) capacity. Being even one point over capacity would prevent the absorption of the spell... actually, did I even openly state that?
    This is the citation I meant; there's some point at which spell absorption is no longer possible, and this point is not mentioned in text.
    My one piece of homebrew: The Shaman. A Druid replacement with more powerlevel control.
    The bargain bin- malfunctioning, missing, and broken magic items.
    Spirit Barbarian: The Barbarian, with heavy elements from the Shaman. Complete up to level 17.
    The Priest: A cleric reword which ran out of steam. Still a fun prestige class suitable for E6.
    The Coward: Not every hero can fight.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2017

    Default Re: Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF] [PEACH]

    Ah! Sure, I can add a sentence saying that.

    Btw, any ideas on how you would want to handle a single two handed weapon athame? It's not really my kinda fighting style so I'm not sure how to approach it. However, I would like to make the ability a sort of combo of some staple feats for that style of play, kinda like what I did with athame dual wielder.

    ~Hexeract

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Jan 2017

    Default Re: Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF] [PEACH]

    I think I would honestly just grant bonus feats, but create some custom bonus feats with Athame prerequisites that empower dual-wielding athames to make it less clunky. If you go into "make a feature for every combat style", you're going to get bogged down in creating a feature for every style, when there are feats out there that can handle those styles just as well.
    My one piece of homebrew: The Shaman. A Druid replacement with more powerlevel control.
    The bargain bin- malfunctioning, missing, and broken magic items.
    Spirit Barbarian: The Barbarian, with heavy elements from the Shaman. Complete up to level 17.
    The Priest: A cleric reword which ran out of steam. Still a fun prestige class suitable for E6.
    The Coward: Not every hero can fight.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    May 2019

    Default Re: Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF] [PEACH]

    This class looks like it has a lot of potential. Nice concept, nice corrections, and I am enjoying the abilities that are associated with it.

    No suggestions. Just thought I would throw in some good, old-fashioned compliments.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2017

    Post Re: Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF] [PEACH]

    So before I say anything else, I really want to thank Luin Dezlat for the words of encuragement. Sometimes it's nice to hear that...

    Ok, back to the alternate class features. I can't think of anything that would work for the two handed weapon idea that would not throw another mechanic off in one way or another...
    The sword and board idea is looking a bit more hopeful.

    All in all, I want to stay away from bonus feats and the like due to just how much the class already gets. I want athame dual weilder and it's soon to be createated alternate class feature to be a sort of grab bag of useful feats and abilities without having the same amount of flexability as characters that invested in them, you get the general capabilities whithout blowing half your feats on it but are locked to your athames to do it. That's the downside.

    So yeah. Let's just focus on single handed weapons with this class for now.

    ~Hexeract

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2017

    d20 Re: Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF] [PEACH]

    Ok, it's been a while.

    Did some research into shield builds and stuff like that and I have to ask...
    why are there so few shield feats and abilities and why does everyone want to just attack with the shield?

    With that on the table I do have some good news;
    Blunt weapons and shields can be made into athames.
    There are now shield exclusive weapon enhancements.
    Some spells have been exchanged for better utility
    Some of the prereq-free feats have been swapped or added
    And the athame enhancement bonus has been extended to a max of +6.
    Progression is as folows:
    +1(4), +2(8), +3(11), +4(14), +5(17), +6(20)
    Also the first +1 enhancement bonus is static and will not change with the amount of magefire stored, giving about 4 points to mess with consequence free. Should help in the long run.
    (will add a response with the spell and feat changes after work)

    Anyway, sorry for the long wait.
    I hope you enjoy the changes and feel free to give some feedback!

    ~Hexeract
    Last edited by Hexeract; 2019-06-25 at 11:28 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Mar 2017

    Thumbs up Re: Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF] [PEACH]

    Ok, spells and feats starting with the spells:

    1st level:
    "Healthful rest" has been exchanged for "Bloodletting"

    2nd level:
    "Scale weakening" has been exchanged for "Heroics"

    4th level:
    "Dampen magic" and "Fang trap" have been exchanged for "Cursed blade" and "Favor of the martyr"

    And now for changes to the pre-req-free feat list:
    I added the "Double hit" and "Martial stance"

    Removed the "weapon finesse" from the list

    Not much else to say,
    though... try using the new Heroics spell to get martial stance.
    It's a pretty solid combo with a lot of utility.

    That's all for now,
    so... please let me know your thoughts opinions and concerns about the class, any new insight is more than welcome!

    ~Hexeract
    Last edited by Hexeract; 2019-06-26 at 10:13 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Mar 2017

    Default Re: Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF] [PEACH]

    So... I've noticed that quite a few people have taken a look at this class... but only two people have bothered to respond to the thread. So... do people enjoy the class? Has anyone tried it out in a game yet? Is it in a good spot overall?

    ...

    Just trying to get an idea of what's going on outside of my own thoughts.

    ~Hexeract

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2017

    Post Re: Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF] [PEACH]

    I'm back with a quick overview of some of the latest Mage blade changes.

    First set of changes are to athames:

    During the description of the athames there was a description that mentioned that it was a a focus for the mage blade's spells. To add another layer of convenience and thus vulnerability when disarmed, when wielding their athame they ignore spell components up to 50gp.

    Next is regarding swapping athame augmentations:

    Changed how much time is needed to swap augments at 6th level, going from requiring 6 hours of meditation to just being able to swap it once every long rest (or about 8 hours). Should help keep things moving when making morning preparations.

    Next is changing the augment swap DC at 16th level from 30 to 25.

    Last athame related thing is removing the fatigue penalty on Athame Burst.

    Now for the spell changes:

    1st level spells: swapped "Ancient knowledge" with "Improvisation"
    Swapped "Master's Touch with "wieldskill"

    https://dndtools.net/spells/magic-of...owledge--4758/
    https://dndtools.net/spells/spell-co...isation--3531/

    https://dndtools.net/spells/complete...rs-touch--382/
    https://dndtools.net/spells/players-...ldskill--2241/

    3rd level spells: Swapped "Dispel Magic" with "Slashing Dispel"

    https://dndtools.net/spells/players-...l-magic--2315/
    https://dndtools.net/spells/players-...-dispel--2949/

    4th level spells: Swapped "Slashing Dispel" with "Bestow Curse"

    https://dndtools.net/spells/players-...-dispel--2949/
    https://dndtools.net/spells/players-...w-curse--2713/

    5th level spells: Swapped "Coat of Arms" with "Shard Storm"
    Swapped "Reciprocal Gyre" with "Revivify"

    https://dndtools.net/spells/complete...-of-arms--819/
    https://dndtools.net/spells/spell-co...d-storm--4154/

    https://dndtools.net/spells/complete...cal-gyre--445/
    https://dndtools.net/spells/spell-co...evivify--4109/

    7th level spells: Swapped "Explosive Pinecone" with "Avasculate"

    https://dndtools.net/spells/forge-wa...inecone--3547/
    https://dndtools.net/spells/libris-m...sculate--1467/

    Well, that's it for now. If you like the class or have some thoughts regarding it, feel free to leave a response!

    ~Hexeract

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2017

    Post Re: Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF] [PEACH]

    Hello again!
    Back with another handful of tweaks to The Mage Blade class.

    Mainly just added more non-lethal and utility options regarding the weapon enhancements.

    On the spell side of things I upgraded "clone" at 8th level to "stasis clone"... because why the heck would anyone use the basic version.
    It's literally just clone... but the body auto leaves stasis when the original dies... you know... instead of being locked away frozen in time forever... or having the body rot before it is ever used.

    Also removed the "Main Gauche" homebrew feat from the listings... mainly because I could not think of a reason to keep it around... and I also needed space for the new athame weapon enhancements.
    Also, changed both "Slice through wardings" and "Athame Burst" for being supernatural abilities to extraordinary to bring them in line with the rest of the class abilities.

    I'll post a list of the weapon enhancements added.
    https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items...s/distracting/
    https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items...ities/sapping/
    https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items...ties/peaceful/
    https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items...phase-locking/
    https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items...ties/menacing/
    https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items...ities/limning/
    https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items...ties/guardian/
    https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items...s/heartseeker/

    That's about it.

    Feel free to leave your thoughts and opinions on the class if you feel inclined.

    ~Hexeract

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2017

    Default Re: Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF] [PEACH]

    Seems like another round of tweaks and changes!

    1st change: added "Spot" to the class skill list... because as it turns out, nobody uses search... like at all.

    2nd change: made changes to the ability to reassign weapon enhancements for the athame.
    "Reassigning athame augmentations can be done freely out of combat. However during combat, an athame can only be reassigned once with a DC 25 Concentration check that provokes attacks of opportunity.
    At the 11th level, 16th level and the 20th level the mage blade gains an additional assignment charge to use during combat for a maximum of 4 charges to use during a single combat encounter."

    3rd change: made the ability to exchange hp for magefire points at a rate of 10 HP = 1 MP from being a full-round action to being a free action. This will encourage more health siphoning to build charges during combat, even when not fighting magic casting opponents.

    4th change: dropped the usage speed of magefire and spells absorbed (through the "spell retention" ability) from being standard actions to being swift. This will encourage it's use without solely relying on it to be the only damaging attack during the round. At the same time has coemption with other swift abilities like "slice through wardings" or spells effected by "Arcane spellsurge" and thus requires some thought to be put into it's use.

    5th change: added bonus elemental damage to the "Slice though wardings" ability. Effective at 3rd level.
    "Gain 4 points of fire, acid, cold, electric, or sonic damage to attacks made with your athame, with the damage growing to 8 points at level 10 and 12 points at level 20."

    6th: Swapped the 3rd level "Ferocity of Sanguine Rage" spell for the "Ring of Blades" spell.
    Mainly did this due to wanting to preventing more flat melee damage buffs in favor for something that will be useful even when the mage blade's "slice through wardings" is active while going full on caster.
    https://dndtools.net/spells/dragon-m...ne-rage--1070/
    https://dndtools.net/spells/miniatur...-blades--1959/

    7th: Moved the two bleed weapon enhancements "Wounding" and "Gory" down in enhancement cost, dropping them from 2 to 1 and 3 to 2 respectively.
    Did this to encourage more "hit and run" tactics, letting the mage blade open against a tough foe by making several bleed attacks then falling bask to cast spells while the foe takes damage over time.
    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/...ities/wounding
    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/...bilities/gory/

    And lastly, changing the "murmuring" and "greater murmuring" athame enhancements to also work on melee weapons and not just shields.
    https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative...#TOC-Murmuring
    https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative...muring-Greater

    Seems like that's everything.
    Let me know what you think.

    ~Hexeract

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Beholder

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    Default Re: Mage Blade: Knowledge is power [D&D 3.5/PF] [PEACH]

    I'd suggest getting a bit more into your fluff for spellfire.

    Obviously you were inspired in part by the spellfire of the forgotten realms, since spell absorption, healing, and blasting are all spellfire tricks.

    As someone familiar with the spellfire for the forgotten realms, i expected a warrior sorcerer type class, people who took their inner spark of spellfire and fanned it til they forged themselves into warrior mages, since in forgotten realms spellfire is an innate blessing.

    Instead your class is more wizardly in nature.

    Which is certainly not in itself a problem but is leaving me wondering how mage blades managed to learn about it and apparently absolutely no one else managed to get a clue.

    Unless you were planning on expanding spellfire to give other characters some lesser access to it through alternate class features or feats or something?
    Last edited by StSword; 2019-09-27 at 04:36 AM.

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