OOTS #1158 - The Discussion Thread

[Verappo]

Yeah, but basically the entire point of that scene was that it WAS drawn out because Tarquin was trying to make it go his way--he wasn't letting it end naturally. He was trying to force his own ending on it. Doing the same sort of thing now would just make that scene feel cheap.

I agree that with the inclusion of the worm, this feels like we're trying to set up another big battle. And that would be, what, our third in a row? Until the worm got brought in--which doesn't even seem like it would be an obstacle for a high level adventuring team and just feels kind of out of the left field, imo, or at the very least a half-hearted obstacle that is taking important drama away from the real obstacles inside--it seemed more like setting up technicalities and rules for our heroes to cleverly divert, which would be more satisfying, given that, as some users have mentioned, this whole plot feels a little weak. Putting a monster in front of this feels weird, given that we've already seen tons of vampire battles that felt much more appropriate. I'm not very eloquent, but hopefully I'm getting my point across.

No, I think you make a lot of sense. This more than anything seems like the moment for a swift surprise turnaround, especially after Durkon's triumphant moment with the hammer. And also considering that we just got back the member of the Order who we know can definitely cast Wind Walk to circumvent that bridge.

And generally it would be funny to see Hel's reaction to the heroes just smashing through her meticulously crafted plan after a whole book of rules lawyering

[Jasdoif]

In #1157, they call the area between the barriers the middle chamber, so I think the outer chamber is the cave in which the tower stands, and is now defended by the worm.

I guess it could be the outer chamber, but the cave sure didn't look like a ring to me.

But the platform the building is on would be.

Hmm...that doesn't sound right, the chamber would be made of way more than the three rings if that's where the division was drawn.

...and this is probably at the point where "would Durkon use these words the way I would use these words" is too prominent to make a convincing case.

---

raising the stakes isn't exactly falling action. its like, we started falling, then decided to give rising another try for a little while. ill admit im not generally a fan of a long drawn out falling action and dénouement to begin with, so im not coming at this from the most unbiased approach, but it still feels strange to put a mini-climax after your actual climax.*
again, there's the possibility that the climax hasnt happened yet, in which case what could top Durkon beating the vampire?

Frankly, I have found a fair amount of the plotting in this book to be a little...off. I assume anything that looks odd is going to pay off in the next book, because the few weird things in the previous books have been that way. (For instance, I'm guessing the somewhat disjointed Command Crisis on the Mechane means the crew of the Mechane is going to play a part in the next book, and the dense character development means they'll be far less of an unknown once everything starts exploding, without having to spend much time establishing it and detracting from the explosions)

That aside...is this raising the stakes? This looks like the same "get the world destroyed" goal as before, implemented by the remaining vampires from before, including the two HPoH dispatched for this very purpose. I think these are the same stakes; we're just seeing the specific tricks used in pursuit of these stakes.

While I was a bit thrown with the scene-setting strip three strips ago...this isn't just a loose end to be tied up after HPoH's defeat, this is the culmination of the Plot from Hel that's been driving the story since it was set up on the last page of the last book; I can't exactly be surprised at it being wrapped up on-screen.

And if this is like those other times an oversized monster was summoned, it's going to be gone in seven or eight more strips. Seems about right; most of the Order can't get through the dwarf-only barrier (on account of not being dwarves), so this would give them something useful to do: distract the monster so Durkon can get through there and do the real work in short order, after which the monster isn't worth keeping track of. (A nightcrawler even has plane shift, maybe it'll get rid of itself once it realizes how superfluous it is/was)


Although I suppose I can't rule out being completely wrong, especially since I don't feel like I have as a solid a grasp on the book this time around....Maybe there is a bigger climax in the works, and I just haven't seen what form it could take yet.

[Mightymosy]

I don't know if it would be cost efficient strategy, but Word of Recall is exactly the type of spell I'd try to prepare as Silent Spell, if I was playing a cleric.
Scenarios like Redcloak killing Tsukiko come to mind - but maybe you also need Still Spell for that?
Anyway, I like my exit strategies to work as unconditionally as possible.

Anyway, what's a "Gatespender"?
I don't get the joke/reference.

[ijuinkun]

I think the only named dwarf we’ve seen so far who *might* be the head of a clan is either Sigdi, or potentially even Durkon himself.

I get the impression that Durkon’s grandfather’s death is somehow important to the story,

It believe it is *possible* that Durkon’s grandfather was a clan elder, and his title passed down to Sigdi (if he was was Sigdi”s father) or to Durkon himself (if he was Tenrin’s father).

Further, *If* he was Tenrin’s father, *and* if the title passed down to Durkon through Tenrin, then I can imagine that the lifting of Durkon’s exile (or whatever) might still prove important during the vote.

But all of this is so far out in the realm of speculation...

I for one like the idea that one of our protagonists happens to be head of their clan and thus eligible to cast a vote.

[Fyraltari]

Frankly, I have found a fair amount of the plotting in this book to be a little...off. I assume anything that looks odd is going to pay off in the next book, because the few weird things in the previous books have been that way.

Out of curiosity, what were those?

[SociopathFriend]

Anyone else imagine Elan somehow helping filibuster the vote from outside? Presumably by helpfully shouting arguments through the barriers to one of his allies as they're all tangling with the worm and the vamps?

[Mariele]

Thanks, Verappo, glad to know I'm making sense.

And if this is like those other times an oversized monster was summoned, it's going to be gone in seven or eight more strips. Seems about right; most of the Order can't get through the dwarf-only barrier (on account of not being dwarves), so this would give them something useful to do: distract the monster so Durkon can get through there and do the real work in short order, after which the monster isn't worth keeping track of. (A nightcrawler even has plane shift, maybe it'll get rid of itself once it realizes how superfluous it is/was)

This is the problem, in my opinion, though... the inclusion of these monsters WAS giving the scene high drama. One was a giant demon that clearly posed a threat. The other was summoned to explicitly murder our protagonist, and was summoned by the major villains of the comic, AND was summoned right when the heroes were already beat and it seemed almost impossible. This case with the worm seems to be having the opposite effect. We've already got a bunch of barriers set up to give the heroes a mental challenge... and then we throw a monster on top for a fully healed and cleric'd up team to plow through. The idea that it will be gone in just a few pages is the problem. It just doesn't seem to be adding anything to the story and seems to be detracting from the real tension, is what I'm saying. We don't need the Order distracted, nor does it give them much of a hindrance.

I mean, I could say that this worm thing will actually be a serious trial for them, and the Order will have to send Durkon ahead alone or something, because it's so tough that there's no way they'll defeat it in time, etc etc. But it seems a bit strange if it goes like that? We already just had a bunch of big, tense battles. But Rich has been known to throw these sometimes, aka, the entire pyramid-to-desert scene, which was nothing but trial after trial after trial... and I felt like that ended up being really well-written, so as usual, I'll just wait and see how it looks overall.

I will add that I felt like the writing in Blood Runs in the Family/whole Tarquin arc was the best in the comic yet, and everything after that has felt a little iffy.

Edit: hee hee... I forgot how much the "maybe you're squeezing him too hard?" gag made me lol

[Fyraltari]

Anyone else imagine Elan somehow helping filibuster the vote from outside? Presumably by helpfully shouting arguments through the barriers to one of his allies as they're all tangling with the worm and the vamps?

The blue barrier is soundproof.

[M.A.D]

Anyway, what's a "Gatespender"?
I don't get the joke/reference.

It's the opposite of "Gatekeeper"

[Quebbster]

Regarding the Three rings of the council chamber, I assume they are all inside the council chamber since they are all supposed to have their own set of... [I assume rules]. Don't really see the middle chamber having those special rules - "only dwarves may pass" and "no outside enchantments" doesn't Count as rules in my headcanon.
I could absolutely be wrong, but it seems like the Three rings sets it up for where Durkon and the vamp try to see who can rules lawyer Dwarven law the hardest. It would be a very different kind of battle.
Meanwhile, the worm may or may not get the vampire goliath treatment (that big guy was a goliath, right?).

[Ghostfriendly]

8 pages already...space for one more verse aboot te Lambton Worm?

"This feorful worm would often feed,
On caalves, and lambs and sheep,
And swally little bairns alive
When they laid doon te sleep.
And when he'd eaten aall he cud
And he had had he's fill,
He craaled away an laaped he's tail
Ten times roond Penshaw hill.

"Whist! Lads, haad yor gobs,
Aall tell ye all an aaful story,
Whist! Lads, haad yor gobs,
And Aa'll tel ye boot the worm."

Don't forget to cut it into THREE halves, gang, and if you can work that one out, defeating the vampires should be a cinch.

[Clistenes]

Hmm, I was thinking a Neothelid due to the lack of eyes, but yeah, thematically a Nightcrawler makes more sense.

Rich really wants to keep the Order away from the highest levels, it seems...

[Borris]

Dunno, looks significantly larger to me than the Huge Ice Giants the Order fought on the way here.

Frost giants are large, not huge.

[hamishspence]

Unrelated, but the worm seems small. As in, Large size, or Huge at most. Most worms seem to be gargantuan.

Xykon's Dragon, as an ancient silver (according to Paladin Blues bonus strip) would be Gargantuan. It looks pretty comparable to this worm in bulk:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html

[paddyfool]

Question for those who've actually played mid to high level 3.5: how nasty is a nightcrawler compared to its CR of 18?

[Goblin_Priest]

You're quite right. The nightcrawler is, at its thickest section, approximately 1.2 times as thick as the Exarch is tall, and very very approximately 10.5 times as long as the Exarch is tall. The Exarch is probably about 4 feet tall, which would make the nightcrawler approximately 5 feet thick and 42 feet long. This is substantially smaller than the measurements of 100 feet long and 7 feet thick given in the SRD, but quite similar to the 40 foot long, 5 foot thick, Huge sized Frost Worm.

Doesn't look at all like a frost worm, though, unless it has some nasty templates on it (half-fiend from worm?)

Xykon's Dragon, as an ancient silver (according to Paladin Blues bonus strip) would be Gargantuan. It looks pretty comparable to this worm in bulk:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html

Dunno, looks significantly larger to me than the Huge Ice Giants the Order fought on the way here.

Well, compare with the purple worm out in the desert, that the whole party was riding on, and that Haley and Elan could do monkey business discretely on.

The purple worm is a gargantuan 80 feet long worm.

Now sure, for cool effect, the purple worm was maybe enlarged (or an advanced colossal version, though the saves on that would probably be fair?), and the dragon(s) perhaps shrinked.

But to me, no, the worm doesn't really look much bigger than the frost giants.

All that said, we do know Rich takes liberties with sizes, such as essentially making goblins medium-sized. Not making a fuss over it, just wondering if it should be taken into consideration when trying to guess what this specific worm is.

[KorvinStarmast]

Trebuchets are wonderful things ;)

I am trying to make a joke about Hel-fire missiles. Not making progress so far.

Unrelated, but the worm seems small.

That's not what she said.

i definitely disagree. I think a lot of fight scenes get dragged out and extended in the comic purely to get more Fight Scene in them

Well, it is a D&D based story, and D&D has a lot of fighting in it, so I think that's internally consistent to the genre. (I guess tastes will differ on that).

I think the book's theme has been "getting hit upside the head by things you assumed you had under control"..

Yeah, and that's even a theme in previous books, like the issue of only asking the oracle about two gates ...

And generally it would be funny to see Hel's reaction to the heroes just smashing through her meticulously crafted plan after a whole book of rules lawyering

That would be nice.

Maybe there is a bigger climax in the works, and I just haven't seen what form it could take yet.

The climax, or mini climax, that is looming seems to me to need to be built as a bridge to the next book - I remember learning when I was writing monographs for an advanced degree that transition sentences are comparatively easy to write, but getting to transition paragraphs and transition pages takes a bit more craftsmanship. Likewise with narrative based transitions.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Maybe there is a bigger climax in the works, and I just haven't seen what form it could take yet.

I'm still tentatively putting my money on a kick-ass-take-names victory lap for Durkon. I agree it does seem to be taking up a bit too much set-up time if it was just going to be that, so I'll side-bet on Hilgya character development. No, I don't care to speculate what direction the development will take, but thinking about it, she needs some form of resolution.

Grey Wolf

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm still tentatively putting my money on a kick-ass-take-names victory lap for Durkon. I agree it does seem to be taking up a bit too much set-up time if it was just going to be that, so I'll side-bet on Hilgya character development. No, I don't care to speculate what direction the development will take, but thinking about it, she needs some form of resolution.

Is it close to the dwarven new year?

I'll get my coat ...

[Fyraltari]

I'm still tentatively putting my money on a kick-ass-take-names victory lap for Durkon. I agree it does seem to be taking up a bit too much set-up time if it was just going to be that

Honestly I could see that much set up serving as an anti-climax joke with Durkon just strolling in and solving all that in one page with proper use of his new hammer, clerical power and foreknowledge of the plan.

so I'll side-bet on Hilgya character development. No, I don't care to speculate what direction the development will take, but thinking about it, she needs some form of resolution.

Grey Wolf

Oh yeah, that is sure money.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is it close to the dwarven new year?

I'll get my coat ...

...

...

...

OK, I'm almost certain this is a reference to something. But I'm afraid it's gone completely over my head.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

...

...

...

OK, I'm almost certain this is a reference to something. But I'm afraid it's gone completely over my head.

Grey Wolf

New years resolution

[Grey_Wolf_c]

New years resolution

Sorry, I'm still a bit at sea as to how this fits with my comment.

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

You're quite right. The nightcrawler is, at its thickest section, approximately 1.2 times as thick as the Exarch is tall, and very very approximately 10.5 times as long as the Exarch is tall. The Exarch is probably about 4 feet tall, which would make the nightcrawler approximately 5 feet thick and 42 feet long. This is substantially smaller than the measurements of 100 feet long and 7 feet thick given in the SRD, but quite similar to the 40 foot long, 5 foot thick, Huge sized Frost Worm.

A "regular" purple worm is also 5 ft thick, and is Gargantuan.

I think the best reasons for Nightcrawler are - it's naturally Extraplanar, which means it doesn't need any templates to be summonable via Gate, and it's Undead, so makes sense as a servitor of Hel.

[Fyraltari]

Sorry, I'm still a bit at sea as to how this fits with my comment.

Grey Wolf

Hilgya needs a new year resolution? To be a better person.

[Aveline]

Sorry, I'm still a bit at sea as to how this fits with my comment.

Grey Wolf

"...but thinking about it, she needs some form of resolution." The joke is that New Year's Day is a traditional time to make "resolutions".

Edit: I am honored to have Fyraltari as my personal ninja.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

New years resolution

Also, in some dwarven societies, it's customary to use a coat in the new year's eve. And that's when they make bets on things that will happen in that year.


... yeah, I'll also get my coat.

[InvisibleBison]

Doesn't look at all like a frost worm, though, unless it has some nasty templates on it (half-fiend from worm?)

A "regular" purple worm is also 5 ft thick, and is Gargantuan.

I think the best reasons for Nightcrawler are - it's naturally Extraplanar, which means it doesn't need any templates to be summonable via Gate, and it's Undead, so makes sense as a servitor of Hel.

I see I didn't phrase my earlier comment as well as I could have. I wasn't trying to suggest that this creature isn't a nightcrawler. I was simply saying that it's smaller than the "official" nightcrawler is described as being, and coincidentally about the same size as a frost worm.

[georgie_leech]

Frost giants are large, not huge.

Apparently I misremembered. Oops.

[hamishspence]

Apparently I misremembered. Oops.

I think it's 4e to 5e that made the change - 4e had several giants (which were previously only Large or only Huge) come in both Huge and Large versions (the Huge ones were called Titans).

And 5e had, as I recall, all the giants be Huge (even ones that were only Large in 3e).