A Question of Great Importance

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

Yes, that was in MA IIRC. Panera sued the mall over a Qdoba.

Yup, it was in Mass. that's my corner of the globe.

And as I recall, the Earl of Sandwich thing, IIRC he was an avid card player, and at the time it was common practice to wrap meat around bread and eat it with your hands for some reason, which he didn't like because it got the cards greasy. He asked his chef for a solution, and the sandwich was born. Or at least that's the version I heard in the days before mainstream internet ( by which I mean the 1980's).

And the obvious addition to this thread of semantics: a hot dog is a sausage. Stick a sausage in a bun and it's a sandwich. The shape of the bread being a canoe instead of 2 separate slices does not make it not a sandwich.

Never thought about the calzone/dumpling thing before.

[Khedrac]

And the obvious addition to this thread of semantics: a hot dog is a sausage.

Well that might be true in the USA, but it is not true in the UK - for us a sausage is a sausage, even if it is a frankfurter (which can be called "hot dog sausages"). It does not become a "hot dog" until it is stuck in a roll - and at that point the type of sausage does not matter, a sausage in a roll is a "hot dog".

Just to confuse: it does not matter if you cut the roll all the way through (to give two pieces of bread) or not - it remains a "hot dog"; however if you put the sausage bewteen two slices of bread is becomes a "sausage sandwich" not a "hot dog"... this suggests that the crust on the bread roll is also a factor.

[Razade]

And the obvious addition to this thread of semantics: a hot dog is a sausage. Stick a sausage in a bun and it's a sandwich. The shape of the bread being a canoe instead of 2 separate slices does not make it not a sandwich.

Well yes and no. You can call the sausage a hot dog and call the entire thing a hot dog and be correct both times. So even further semantics on top of your semantics.

[Iruka]

Well that might be true in the USA, but it is not true in the UK - for us a sausage is a sausage, even if it is a frankfurter (which can be called "hot dog sausages"). It does not become a "hot dog" until it is stuck in a roll - and at that point the type of sausage does not matter, a sausage in a roll is a "hot dog".

Wait, I thought that was a "sausage roll"?

[Razade]

Wait, I thought that was a "sausage roll"?

A sausage roll is different in that it is encased in dough. A sausage sandwich is just a sandwich with a sausage link.

[Khedrac]

Wait, I thought that was a "sausage roll"?

A sausage roll is different in that it is encased in dough. A sausage sandwich is just a sandwich with a sausage link.

Or to be more specific, a "sausage roll" is sausagemeat encased in pastry. It is very rarely a sausage (no skin) - as I cannot remember if I have ever seen a sausage roll made with an actual sausage.

[Razade]

Or to be more specific, a "sausage roll" is sausagemeat encased in pastry. It is very rarely a sausage (no skin) - as I cannot remember if I have ever seen a sausage roll made with an actual sausage.

Pastry starts as dough. To be pedantic on top of pedantic on top of pedantic.

Also, how is a sausage with a skin less of a sausage than one without? They're both sausage. They do make those as well of course, but I'm just staggered by calling a sausage in a casing not an actual sausage. Because it is.

[Iruka]

Or to be more specific, a "sausage roll" is sausagemeat encased in pastry. It is very rarely a sausage (no skin) - as I cannot remember if I have ever seen a sausage roll made with an actual sausage.

A roll with a sausage in it is not a sausage roll. The world we live in.

Still relieved that sausage rolls are still a (albeit specific) thing and my "Sex, Drugs and Sausage Rolls" t-shirt does not make me look like a fool.

[Peelee]

Well that might be true in the USA, but it is not true in the UK - for us a sausage is a sausage, even if it is a frankfurter (which can be called "hot dog sausages"). It does not become a "hot dog" until it is stuck in a roll - and at that point the type of sausage does not matter, a sausage in a roll is a "hot dog".

Just to confuse: it does not matter if you cut the roll all the way through (to give two pieces of bread) or not - it remains a "hot dog"; however if you put the sausage bewteen two slices of bread is becomes a "sausage sandwich" not a "hot dog"... this suggests that the crust on the bread roll is also a factor.

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

Still relieved that sausage rolls are still a (albeit specific) thing and my "Sex, Drugs and Sausage Rolls" t-shirt does not make me look like a fool.

Jealous of that shirt without even seeing it, lol


And to clarify my previous statement.

A hot dog is a sausage, but not all sausages are hot dogs. Hell, not even everything that could be called a hot dog is called a hot dog; dunno how many varieties in other parts of the world, but around here we have hot dogs, frankfurters, saugy's, weiners, and the infamous Red Snapper

[Telonius]

Jealous of that shirt without even seeing it, lol


And to clarify my previous statement.

A hot dog is a sausage, but not all sausages are hot dogs. Hell, not even everything that could be called a hot dog is called a hot dog; dunno how many varieties in other parts of the world, but around here we have hot dogs, frankfurters, saugy's, weiners, and the infamous Red Snapper

There's probably an argument somewhere about whether DC's "half-smokes" are hot dogs or not. Different kind of sausage than a standard hot dog, but same general shape and served in a bun.

[Khedrac]

Pastry starts as dough. To be pedantic on top of pedantic on top of pedantic.

Also, how is a sausage with a skin less of a sausage than one without? They're both sausage. They do make those as well of course, but I'm just staggered by calling a sausage in a casing not an actual sausage. Because it is.

To be pedantic - as I said I was being specific - as bread also starts with dough and does not count as a hot dog - hence refining your dough (which I did not say was wrong) to form patry not some of the other alternatives.

And now to confuse me, some shops now sell "potato-dogs" which are basically frankfurters in a rosti coating. No - I don't count them as sausage rolls.

[ve4grm]

To be pedantic - as I said I was being specific - as bread also starts with dough and does not count as a hot dog - hence refining your dough (which I did not say was wrong) to form patry not some of the other alternatives.

And now to confuse me, some shops now sell "potato-dogs" which are basically frankfurters in a rosti coating. No - I don't count them as sausage rolls.

Ah, but are they a form of burrito?

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

Ah, but are they a form of burrito?

Just as similar to a burrito as it is to a calzone.


We've got a chain here that does a pretzel wrapped dog. Def Go to for mid mall snacking.

[sheenarustomji]

There is an irony to bad questions, in that they can be more difficult to answer than a good question. Questioning is the art of learning. Learning to ask important questions is the best evidence of understanding there is, far surpassing the temporary endorphins of a correct “answer.”

[shawnhcorey]

Also, eggs on toast could be argued as an open-faced sandwich.

So, is pizza an open-faced sandwich?

The WORD sandwich is *NAMED* for that one dude, probably, but the concept of what a sandwich *IS* is much older. People've been scooping stuff onto bread and eating it one-handed for a hecka-long time, I think.

Roman soldiers eat their gazpacho by scooping it up with their bread. Is that a sandwich? BTW, their gazpacho was made of olive oil, garlic, and whatever vegetables were available locally. It was not Spanish gazpacho that modern people think of when they say gazpacho.

Personally I think breadING is similar but separate from bread, so no.

Is battered fish a sandwich?

###

And the most important question: is an ice-cream cone a sandwich?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So, is pizza an open-faced sandwich?

If you don't fold it before you eat it, yes. If you do, then no, it's just a regular sandwich.

Roman soldiers eat their gazpacho by scooping it up with their bread. Is that a sandwich? BTW, their gazpacho was made of olive oil, garlic, and whatever vegetables were available locally. It was not Spanish gazpacho that modern people think of when they say gazpacho.

Given that the modern gazpacho involves an American fruit, that's not surprising. That said, what you've described sounds like gazpacho to me.

Is battered fish a sandwich?

Might be. Again, are you in a US state where you're only allowed to sell beer if you also sell sandwiches? Because at that point, it was successfully argued that battered chicken is a sandwich, so it'd apply to fish too.

And the most important question: is an ice-cream cone a sandwich?

Yes.
I'm not longer sure how tongue-in-cheek I'm being
Grey Wolf

[shawnhcorey]

Might be. Again, are you in a US state where you're only allowed to sell beer if you also sell sandwiches? Because at that point, it was successfully argued that battered chicken is a sandwich, so it'd apply to fish too.

No, not is any US state. Restaurants can get a licence from the LCBO, so I take it to mean yes.

[jayem]

Or to be more specific, a "sausage roll" is sausagemeat encased in pastry. It is very rarely a sausage (no skin) - as I cannot remember if I have ever seen a sausage roll made with an actual sausage.

I've seen 'homemade' style ones that are made with sausage (and often they most closely resemble toad in the hole).
I'm guessing as the intestine is 'traditional' and puff-pasty newish?, that they might have some claim to be more original (otherwise it would be umble-roll or something).
But until it matters I'm treating them as not-real sausage rolls.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I've seen 'homemade' style ones that are made with sausage (and often they most closely resemble toad in the hole)

I cannot for the life of me imagine how anything with sausage would resemble toad in the hole?

https://www.tasteofhome.com/recipes/toad-in-the-hole/

Spoiler: Spoilered due to size

Show

Grey Wolf

[jayem]

I cannot for the life of me imagine how anything with sausage would resemble toad in the hole?

https://www.tasteofhome.com/recipes/toad-in-the-hole/

Spoiler: Spoilered due to size

Show

Grey Wolf

Pic of what I meant here, (that I think has that 'toad in the hole' as 'egg in basket', but the fact it has that link shows it's ambiguous)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toad_in_the_hole

[Peelee]

Might be. Again, are you in a US state where you're only allowed to sell beer if you also sell sandwiches? Because at that point, it was successfully argued that battered chicken is a sandwich, so it'd apply to fish too.

You got a reference to that court case? I'm interested to see how they argued that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You got a reference to that court case? I'm interested to see how they argued that.

As I said in my first post, it was mentioned in Wait Wait, Don't Tell Me. I don't remember which episode, though. I'd have to google for it. Possibly it's in one of those perennial "weird laws of states" lists.

ETA: also, not sure it was a court battle. Something in the back of my mind says it was an argument directly to the legislature?

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

As I said in my first post, it was mentioned in Wait Wait, Don't Tell Me. I don't remember which episode, though. I'd have to google for it. Possibly it's in one of those perennial "weird laws of states" lists.

ETA: also, not sure it was a court battle. Something in the back of my mind says it was an argument directly to the legislature?

Grey Wolf

Makes sense it'd be initiated as a law and unchallenged, because I can't see a hope of it holding up in a court. Can't find anything myself on Google except for very tangentially related things, and I'm not a big fan of WWDTM so I'd never have heard it otherwise.

[tyckspoon]

Makes sense it'd be initiated as a law and unchallenged, because I can't see a hope of it holding up in a court. Can't find anything myself on Google except for very tangentially related things, and I'm not a big fan of WWDTM so I'd never have heard it otherwise.

I don't know if it's a strict law forbidding it, as such, but I believe at least here in Indiana it's much easier to get development/zoning permission to be a restaurant with a liquor license than to be an establishment that only serves alcohol. One of our regional breweries has several taprooms where they offer nominal food because of this (IIRC you can buy a Hot Pocket or like some instant mac and cheese. They also have menus and delivery agreements for all the restaurants near them, and strongly recommend that you order from one of those locations if you want a meal to go with your beer.)

[Peelee]

I don't know if it's a strict law forbidding it, as such, but I believe at least here in Indiana it's much easier to get development/zoning permission to be a restaurant with a liquor license than to be an establishment that only serves alcohol. One of our regional breweries has several taprooms where they offer nominal food because of this (IIRC you can buy a Hot Pocket or like some instant mac and cheese. They also have menus and delivery agreements for all the restaurants near them, and strongly recommend that you order from one of those locations if you want a meal to go with your beer.)

I'm talking about battered chicken being a sandwich as the law sees.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm talking about battered chicken being a sandwich as the law sees.

A bit of light googling suggests it might be Indiana:

"5. Permit premises where alcoholic beverages are consumed by the "drink" are required to have food service available, at all times, for at least 25 persons. Minimum food service required consists of hot soups, hot sandwiches, coffee, milk, and soft drinks (see attached rule). (IC 7.1-3-20-9 & 905 IAC 1-20-1)"

From what I remember, the owners of fried chicken diners would have argued to the alcohol commission that their fried chicken was in effect a sandwich, as a way to be allowed to sell beer with it. I'm guessing that, if it did indeed happen, the legislature found it easier to agree than to amend the law to include "and fried items" to the list of stuff above (I did my best to find "the attached rule" but was not tremendously lucky).

Unfortunately, I have not found a reference to the actual fried chicken event or any record thereof, so it might be an urban legend.

Grey Wolf

[tyckspoon]

(I did my best to find "the attached rule" but was not tremendously lucky).

Unfortunately, I have not found a reference to the actual fried chicken event or any record thereof, so it might be an urban legend.

Grey Wolf

I found the rule, it's part of the bylaws and rulings of the Indiana Alcohol Commission. It's pretty much completely summarized in the statement you quoted, just less formal legal language. I would speculate that the fried chicken argument may have gone something like 1: Open-faced sandwiches are recognized as sandwiches by law. 2: An open-faced sandwich is constructed by placing an item on top of a piece of bread. 3: We sell items (chicken breasts, chicken tenders, deboned thighs?) that can be placed on top of a piece of bread and consumed in the style of an open-faced sandwich. 4: Said items are provided with bread or biscuits as a side item, and we serve them on top of the piece of bread. 5: Therefore we sell open-faced sandwiches, as defined by law, and can we have a our dang beer permit already.

(Or they just sold chicken biscuits already, which are inarguably a kind of sandwich. Honestly I think carrying some kind of soup may be more of a hassle for meeting that requirement if your thing is 'we sell fried chicken and only fried chicken.')

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Honestly I think carrying some kind of soup may be more of a hassle for meeting that requirement if your thing is 'we sell fried chicken and only fried chicken.'

Nah, that's just some chicken in hot water. The law doesn't require it to be good soup. Or for anyone to actually buy it. It just needs to be in the menu


(Thanks for confirming this, in any case. Very much appreciated)

Grey Wolf