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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Shepard gets up and has a long conversation afterwards, and then goes on to actually activate the Crucible, so it's not like they would've remained unconscious for long. Also not being able to figure out how to work the elevator is bad writing considering the alliance built the bloody thing. This isn't some ancient warmachine they rediscovered. It was built from ancient blueprints, but you know, actually built. If they couldn't figure out how to work the elevators they would've put in a ladder.
    You weren't on the Crucible yet, you were on a part of the Citadel. The elevator took you up to the Crucible. No species is ever allowed to fully understand the Citadel (by design - they are instead conditioned to be wholly reliant on the Keepers.) This was mostly established in ME1, so calling it bad writing now just means "I don't want to be wrong about this."

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    The whole Star Child sequence is just plain bad, and really drags down the whole ending. You know what else might've worked better? A video phone call with your allies. They explain how to use the Crucible, and start arguing for you to pick the various options. TIM/Salarians argues for control, and isn't obviously indoctrinated, Anderson and/or, I don't know, Wrex argues for destroy, and if you reached the appropriate level EDI/Geth might argue for Synthesis. They don't know if they are correct, and don't know what the consequence will be. You can even end up locked out of certain routes if you kill TIM and cured the Genophage for example. Or locked out of Synthesis if you don't solve the Geth-Quarian war.

    And in the end they agree on a compromise. You decide. They trust you and feel you're the best person to decide how to use the Crucible. The only person even.
    I disagree - I think the inherent drama of not having the easy answer of polling the galaxy before making the choice is more powerful. Where I do agree is that having some unforeseen kid deliver such important exposition was a mistake on Bioware's part. I would have much preferred if it took on the persona of whoever you left to die on Virmire, including some romance dialogue if applicable.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    And for the umpteenth time I say, you do have a reason to trust it. Namely, that if it simply wanted you dead and the war won, all it had to do was nothing. With Shepard unconscious at the bottom of an elevator shaft mere moments away from the Crucible being destroyed, the only logical conclusion for it bringing you up there was that winning the war was no longer its goal. That's more than enough to prove to me that attaching the Crucible did something to its programming, and that I have nothing to lose by hearing it out.
    All that tells you is that it wants something from you, not that it's being honest when it tells you what that something is. And since it readily admits to being the guiding intelligence behind the Reapers, i.e. your primary adversary of all this time, you have a pretty strong reason to distrust it.

    Honestly, the best reason to put some amount of trust in what it's saying and make an actual choice is simply that the alternative is to just give up and do nothing, which is guaranteed to end badly. Which is enough that I don't personally agree with anyone who would actually argue that Refuse is a choice that makes sense, but it's a pretty sad state of affairs and indicative of how badly written the ending is.
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  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    You weren't on the Crucible yet, you were on a part of the Citadel. The elevator took you up to the Crucible. No species is ever allowed to fully understand the Citadel (by design - they are instead conditioned to be wholly reliant on the Keepers.) This was mostly established in ME1, so calling it bad writing now just means "I don't want to be wrong about this."



    I disagree - I think the inherent drama of not having the easy answer of polling the galaxy before making the choice is more powerful. Where I do agree is that having some unforeseen kid deliver such important exposition was a mistake on Bioware's part. I would have much preferred if it took on the persona of whoever you left to die on Virmire, including some romance dialogue if applicable.
    It's still an elevator going to a device that we freaking built. If we didn't know how to activate said elevator on the Citadel, than they would've put in a service hatch or something. So no, it has absolutely nothing to do with the not understanding the Citadel, because the bottom line is that we built the Crucible and that means we should have some idea how to operate it. Maybe not what it does. Definitely not how it does what it does. But activation? Should be understood on the basis of we built the bloody thing from scratch.


    I disagree entirely. I think having characters that you, likely, care about giving you contradictory advice would be much more powerful then getting advice from the Reapers who you've been trying to stop for three games now.
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  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Well done. Do you remember what you had for choices? Because I made pretty decent choices, but I was still a decent way away from Synthesis when I looked it up later.
    When the game first launched it wasn't possible to get Synthesis without multiplayer, even with the absolute maximum available warscore.

    The requirements were reduced after launch, but it was too late then. The narrative of Mass Effect was irrevocably broken and I would never touch the story again. (Multiplayer was quite fun for a while, at least there the only crushing disappointment was a disconnection in wave 10)
    Last edited by GloatingSwine; 2019-03-13 at 05:43 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    When the game first launched it wasn't possible to get Synthesis without multiplayer, even with the absolute maximum available warscore.

    The requirements were reduced after launch, but it was too late then. The narrative of Mass Effect was irrevocably broken and I would never touch the story again. (Multiplayer was quite fun for a while, at least there the only crushing disappointment was a disconnection in wave 10)
    Yeah, it meant even I felt I had to go play multiplayer (because of course I made sure I basically 100% everything, but it wasn't, at the time, enough) to get the option (which I did).



    Actually, if you think about it, we dodged a big bullet there, as if you look at what the did with ME3 now, you realise it was a milder form of the same crap they pull nowadays so much more overtly - lootboxes, trying to force you to play mutliplayer to GET those lootboxes (which were, let's remember, not cosmetic, but game mechanics, and the reason I stopped playing was because I wasn't going to grind (and never would have considered paying money from random crap))... I think we might have been lucky in one sense that EA screwed up with ME3; I shudder to think where the industry would be if they'd found forcing people into multiplayer's grind as part of the single player game had been successful, instead of resisted to the point they changed it.

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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    It's still an elevator going to a device that we freaking built. If we didn't know how to activate said elevator on the Citadel, than they would've put in a service hatch or something. So no, it has absolutely nothing to do with the not understanding the Citadel, because the bottom line is that we built the Crucible and that means we should have some idea how to operate it. Maybe not what it does. Definitely not how it does what it does. But activation? Should be understood on the basis of we built the bloody thing from scratch.
    Hackett tells you they expected it to activate once attached. The beam run was purely to get somebody to open the Citadel arms to plug it in. Again I direct you to rewatch the video Douglas helpfully linked, because you don't appear to have the details down. Understandable since it's been a while, but that's what YouTube is for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I disagree entirely. I think having characters that you, likely, care about giving you contradictory advice would be much more powerful then getting advice from the Reapers who you've been trying to stop for three games now.
    We can agree to disagree here, sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    All that tells you is that it wants something from you, not that it's being honest when it tells you what that something is. And since it readily admits to being the guiding intelligence behind the Reapers, i.e. your primary adversary of all this time, you have a pretty strong reason to distrust it.
    This is also something Starchild didn't have to do, of course. So it's not really a better reason to distrust Starchild than anything else in the conversation.

    On the flip side, there is at least one good reason why Starchild would still try to make use of Shepard. Absent your intervention, the Reapers win this cycle, we know that - but Starchild still says its solution won't work anymore. Assuming it's telling the truth about that, it must think future cycles are going to win outright.

    If you believe the rest of what Starchild says, it's accepting this fact and trying to make the best of this cycle. But it might instead be trying to get you to do something which will salvage Starchild's solution by assuring the Reapers will continue to win. I don't know what that is or how it would work, but then, I don't really know what Synthesis is or how it would work, either.

    So Psyren's argument that Starchild could have just left Shepard down below, and Douglas' argument that it has no use for an indoctrinated Shepard, aren't necessarily correct.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2019-03-13 at 08:38 PM.

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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    But it might instead be trying to get you to do something which will salvage Starchild's solution by assuring the Reapers will continue to win.
    We plainly see that isn't the case. The cycle ends if you use the Crucible, done.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    We plainly see that isn't the case. The cycle ends if you use the Crucible, done.
    It's not like the indoctrination suspicions in this thread were allayed by the ending cinematics, so that's no more or less relevant than it was to begin with.

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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Not to get anywhere near defending the ending of ME3, but not to put too fine a point on it, if anyone watched the ending cinematic for Control or Synthesis and came away with "Shepard was indoctrinated," the term idee-fixe comes to mind.

    At some point, you have to accept what the game's telling you, even if you find it so badly written that "no matter what you do the galaxy was doomed all along" is preferable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    This is also something Starchild didn't have to do, of course. So it's not really a better reason to distrust Starchild than anything else in the conversation.
    It is, but it's also the one thing that it says that you can be fairly confident is true, since it definitely has nothing to gain by telling you that, given that no matter whats intentions were, it's only likely to make you more hostile towards it.
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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    It's not like the indoctrination suspicions in this thread were allayed by the ending cinematics, so that's no more or less relevant than it was to begin with.
    Not much is relevant to a delusion, no.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I disagree - I think the inherent drama of not having the easy answer of polling the galaxy before making the choice is more powerful. Where I do agree is that having some unforeseen kid deliver such important exposition was a mistake on Bioware's part. I would have much preferred if it took on the persona of whoever you left to die on Virmire, including some romance dialogue if applicable.
    I would have really liked the Babylon 5 method - have the exposition given by the entire cast, including dead ones. Imagine getting the "AI and organics cannot co-exist" speech from either Legion or Tali after they had been killed during that very conflict. It would have made the exposition a lot less dry, and having the dialogue change based on how you interacted with the characters throughout the series would have been a good way to showcase the choices you made.

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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    More importantly, it'd connect the decision to the rest of the game world. As is, it's "Wow you go there, now a new character is going to explain a bunch of **** to you, give you 3 options, pick one or lose".

    Even if Starkid took the images of characters we actually care about, it'd be better.
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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Hackett tells you they expected it to activate once attached. The beam run was purely to get somebody to open the Citadel arms to plug it in. Again I direct you to rewatch the video Douglas helpfully linked, because you don't appear to have the details down. Understandable since it's been a while, but that's what YouTube is for.



    We can agree to disagree here, sure.
    Cool. Addressing the problem doesn't make it better though. Particularly considering how freaking simple it was to activate considering a half dead man could do it. If anything it makes it worse. I mean, thinking about it is just going to make even more problems visible. Like for example, why not just have a few engineers in the Crucible when you are escorting it?
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  16. - Top - End - #196
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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Sorry for the delayed responses here, I only have time for silly internet arguments on days I don't work. I've snipped some of these quotes for length, not because I ignored your posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    What did I misrepresent - your unsupported belief that Shepard controlled the elevator, or your unsupported belief that Shepard could activate the Crucible on his own?
    You've misrepresented almost everything I've said this entire conversation. From jibes about "eating Anderson" to straight up ignoring my points. I don't know if you think you earned enough points from past conversations about this issue that you don't actually have to contribute, and maybe you made some good points in them, but those conversations don't mean much to those of us who weren't actually participating in them.

    And how many of those examples involved the person seeking to control them sacrificing their lives in the process for the good of everyone else?
    Probably a lot considering the type of person willing to even make these attempts are by nature willing to risk their lives for the good of others. I'm curious why you think altruism is going to magically give someone the ability to resist mind control anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Not much is relevant to a delusion, no.
    Stuff like this. Either participate in the conversation or don't, but currently all you're really doing is sitting on the side lines throwing insults and mocking people. Honestly, if I didn't recognize you from other threads I'd think you were just a troll at this point and ignore you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    "All the options are a trap" would imply that the Crucible didn't do anything, and all of the work from the previous cycles and all of the work in the existing cycle to finish it was entirely pointless and was never going to do anything at all.
    You're misunderstanding people's problem with the scene. Yes, everyone is capable of using meta-knowledge to know it's a video game and the devs aren't going to lie to you about your options during the end cut-scene. The problem is that Shepard has no reason to believe that, and the entire thing is incredibly ham-fisted and poorly written. They could have given you more reason to trust in Star-kid's honesty, or given you other options besides blindly listening to him. Either one would have been more satisfying than listening to him spout a bunch of nonsense we've proven wrong over the series and being forced to follow along anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Oh, I certainly don't disagree with you there, it very definitely is bad writing, on so many levels. I simply felt the need to point out the gaping flaw in arguing against Control specifically because of not trusting the Catalyst when that reasoning applies to all three options.
    Control is particularly objectionable because we spent 3 games being shown over and over why control won't work. It directly contradicts everything we've known about controlling them to this point. The other 2 options didn't have hundreds of hours of build-up to explain why they won't work only to be subverted by a single voice line at the ending. If the last 3 games all had sub-plots about how destroying the Reapers would backfire, people would be reacting this way towards that ending instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    And for the umpteenth time I say, you do have a reason to trust it. Namely, that if it simply wanted you dead and the war won, all it had to do was nothing. With Shepard unconscious at the bottom of an elevator shaft mere moments away from the Crucible being destroyed, the only logical conclusion for it bringing you up there was that winning the war was no longer its goal. That's more than enough to prove to me that attaching the Crucible did something to its programming, and that I have nothing to lose by hearing it out.
    Except. again. Shepard does wake up well before the crucible explodes, and is fully capable of operating an elevator he's already sitting on to go to the next room. Stop basing your arguments around alternate reality versions of events that didn't happen.

    And if Star-Brat is so benevolent, why is he still trying to blow the thing up anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas View Post
    Indoctrinating the exhausted and crippled soldier with damaged armor and armed only with a pistol, who has no idea where your "self destruct button" even is - assuming that such a thing even exists - or how to activate it, whose entire plan for beating you has already played out to its end and exhausted 99% (or whatever the fraction actually is) of the resources he could possibly draw on? Yes, I would call that nearly worthless.

    Suppose Shepard staggers off, trying to find a way to activate the Crucible. He doesn't know what he's looking for, or where to find it, or what to do with it. 5 minutes later, the Reapers have damaged the Crucible enough that it no longer matters.
    He's literally laying on the elevator. He's a button press away from a room with a literally glowing giant lever to activate the crucible. At the very least, he'd have figured out how to activate control (although he might not know what he's doing) if not the other 2. I'd give him good odds of figuring out the destroy method as well. The only ending he couldn't have figured out on his own is synthesis since he probably wouldn't arbitrarily suicide into a giant beam of light.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    It is, but it's also the one thing that it says that you can be fairly confident is true, since it definitely has nothing to gain by telling you that, given that no matter whats intentions were, it's only likely to make you more hostile towards it.
    It's an entity with hundreds of thousands of years experience manipulating people and controlling them. The idea that anything it tells you is a manipulation attempt should seem far more likely to Shepard than the idea that it's suddenly deciding to be honest and forthright. Really, a lot of the problems with the ending go away if you just have the ending options explained by the crucible itself or some other trustworthy entity rather than your worst enemy who has a history of lying and trying to control you.

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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    You've misrepresented almost everything I've said this entire conversation. From jibes about "eating Anderson" to straight up ignoring my points. I don't know if you think you earned enough points from past conversations about this issue that you don't actually have to contribute, and maybe you made some good points in them, but those conversations don't mean much to those of us who weren't actually participating in them.
    ***
    Stuff like this. Either participate in the conversation or don't, but currently all you're really doing is sitting on the side lines throwing insults and mocking people. Honestly, if I didn't recognize you from other threads I'd think you were just a troll at this point and ignore you.
    You ask to be taken seriously and then say stuff like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Except. again. Shepard does wake up well before the crucible explodes, and is fully capable of operating an elevator he's already sitting on to go to the next room. Stop basing your arguments around alternate reality versions of events that didn't happen.
    To which I again ask, HOW? There is no button and no instructions. I'm not the one living in "alternate reality" here. Direct me to the exact mechanism Shepard would use to solve that situation without the Catalyst's help. I'll wait.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    He's literally laying on the elevator. He's a button press away from a room with a literally glowing giant lever to activate the crucible. At the very least, he'd have figured out how to activate control (although he might not know what he's doing) if not the other 2. I'd give him good odds of figuring out the destroy method as well. The only ending he couldn't have figured out on his own is synthesis since he probably wouldn't arbitrarily suicide into a giant beam of light.
    What elevator? That's not an elevator, that's a chunk of floor that just so happens to get moved vertically when a super-advanced entity intervenes on its own initiative. We've seen elevators before in the series, even ones part of the Citadel, and they are enclosed and move along a materially solid track. They do not float up an insubstantial beam of light, surrounded by nothing but air, completely open on all sides without even a railing.
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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Control is particularly objectionable because we spent 3 games being shown over and over why control won't work. It directly contradicts everything we've known about controlling them to this point. The other 2 options didn't have hundreds of hours of build-up to explain why they won't work only to be subverted by a single voice line at the ending. If the last 3 games all had sub-plots about how destroying the Reapers would backfire, people would be reacting this way towards that ending instead.
    True, but that doesn't really have anything to do with my point in the quote you were responding to. And in fact I said much the same thing a little further down in the same post when I was listing the elements that made each ending arguably awful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Really, a lot of the problems with the ending go away if you just have the ending options explained by the crucible itself or some other trustworthy entity rather than your worst enemy who has a history of lying and trying to control you.
    Some of them would at least, certainly, I can agree with that.
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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    You ask to be taken seriously and then say stuff like this:
    Alright, enough is enough. I'm just going to ignore you going forward since you don't actually contribute anything but snide remarks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas View Post
    What elevator? That's not an elevator, that's a chunk of floor that just so happens to get moved vertically when a super-advanced entity intervenes on its own initiative. We've seen elevators before in the series, even ones part of the Citadel, and they are enclosed and move along a materially solid track. They do not float up an insubstantial beam of light, surrounded by nothing but air, completely open on all sides without even a railing.
    We see plenty of examples of things throughout the series that move without a track including elevators and floating platforms. There's tractor beams, mass effect fields, literal teleportation, etc. Why are you acting like this is some sort of unseen technology that only Star-Childs direct intervention could explain? Shepard is literally 6 inches from a terminal with a bunch of buttons on it when he passes out. It's not unreasonable at all to assume he's passed out on an elevator right in front of the control panel.

    And again, if Star-Kid is so trustworthy, why did he try to kill you with TIM less than a minute ago? Why are his forces still genociding the galaxy and trying to destroy the crucible as you speak to him? He's literally still actively trying to kill you during the entire conversation with him. I'm supposed to believe he's suddenly changed his ways while he's not even bothering to pause murdering my friends while we're talking? The whole thing is just so incredibly ridiculous. We know he's not lying because we know it's a video game, but in-universe Shepard doesn't have that benefit.

    There's no reason to trust him whatsoever outside of a vague "maybe the elevator I just rode isn't actually an elevator and was instead Star Kid's magic ability to transport me around at will...despite never showing this ability before in the 1,000 times he tried to kill me." You want to know how this series logically goes if Star Kid actually has this power? Step 1: Shepard learns of the Reapers from the beacon and heads towards the Citadel to report to the Council. Step 2: Star Kid jettisons the room Shepard is in into space. The end.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2019-03-14 at 08:59 PM.

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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Alright, enough is enough. I'm just going to ignore you going forward since you don't actually contribute anything but snide remarks.
    Yeah, I didn't think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Just to make sure I wasn't misremembering anything I watched the ending again, several different endings on different posters to make sure there weren't changed between choices or edits. You have to be delusional to think that he was in any way capable of getting to the top area. He literally says he doesn't know what to do as he passes out just before it takes him up and he has no clue where that area is or that it is even the control for the Crucible/Citadel. It isn't even actually the control, in one you destroy an important part in it, in another you merge your conscious with it to control it, and the third you add your essence to the beam. It isn't like a control panel or a big red button.

    Dislike the ending or the story all you want, but "he could just get to that area on his own" is not a legitimate stance to take for any justification.



    As for "he tried to kill you with TIM just seconds ago" that also really isn't the case. Indoctrination isn't a full, telepathic, control, it is suggestive and gets stronger over time. TIM is in the beginning stages and still has a fair amount of control, he was always on the crazy side.

    The catalyst also, likewise, doesn't have complete and total control over the Reapers and other synthetics. He can give them orders, give them a goal, but in the end they are intelligent in their own right. He in fact states that he can't stop them, as well as saying he won't. Being fully synthetic he also doesn't have the ability to do the synthesis entirely on his own because he has no organic to add. The fact that Shepard is already a mix of synthetic and organic also seems to be key, so not like he can just toss any old body into the thing.

    While the "star child" portrayal of the Catalyst might not be the most awe inspiring choice, I think having something to represent the Reapers, to talk to and confront, is important to the story. What we got being good or bad aside, and ending where the only contact with the enemy is indirect, coming from someone that was fighting against them with you for the majority of the story, and where you never see or hear from the enemy themselves, would be bad.

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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    Just to make sure I wasn't misremembering anything I watched the ending again, several different endings on different posters to make sure there weren't changed between choices or edits. You have to be delusional to think that he was in any way capable of getting to the top area. He literally says he doesn't know what to do as he passes out just before it takes him up and he has no clue where that area is or that it is even the control for the Crucible/Citadel. It isn't even actually the control, in one you destroy an important part in it, in another you merge your conscious with it to control it, and the third you add your essence to the beam. It isn't like a control panel or a big red button.

    Dislike the ending or the story all you want, but "he could just get to that area on his own" is not a legitimate stance to take for any justification.



    As for "he tried to kill you with TIM just seconds ago" that also really isn't the case. Indoctrination isn't a full, telepathic, control, it is suggestive and gets stronger over time. TIM is in the beginning stages and still has a fair amount of control, he was always on the crazy side.

    The catalyst also, likewise, doesn't have complete and total control over the Reapers and other synthetics. He can give them orders, give them a goal, but in the end they are intelligent in their own right. He in fact states that he can't stop them, as well as saying he won't. Being fully synthetic he also doesn't have the ability to do the synthesis entirely on his own because he has no organic to add. The fact that Shepard is already a mix of synthetic and organic also seems to be key, so not like he can just toss any old body into the thing.

    While the "star child" portrayal of the Catalyst might not be the most awe inspiring choice, I think having something to represent the Reapers, to talk to and confront, is important to the story. What we got being good or bad aside, and ending where the only contact with the enemy is indirect, coming from someone that was fighting against them with you for the majority of the story, and where you never see or hear from the enemy themselves, would be bad.

    That's really stupid though. Not being able to get into the Crucible is more of a plothole then anything else. Having no idea how to work it is similarly bad. Like it sets things up for the Star Child to be necessary, but there was no reason to do things that way. Particularly since trusting the Star Child doesn't make sense, its motivations are really unclear, the explains it gives suck, and we have no attachment to the character at all.
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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    Just to make sure I wasn't misremembering anything I watched the ending again, several different endings on different posters to make sure there weren't changed between choices or edits. You have to be delusional to think that he was in any way capable of getting to the top area. He literally says he doesn't know what to do as he passes out just before it takes him up and he has no clue where that area is or that it is even the control for the Crucible/Citadel. It isn't even actually the control, in one you destroy an important part in it, in another you merge your conscious with it to control it, and the third you add your essence to the beam. It isn't like a control panel or a big red button.

    Dislike the ending or the story all you want, but "he could just get to that area on his own" is not a legitimate stance to take for any justification.
    Your logic and reasoning have no place here! Avaunt!

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    Just to make sure I wasn't misremembering anything I watched the ending again, several different endings on different posters to make sure there weren't changed between choices or edits. You have to be delusional to think that he was in any way capable of getting to the top area. He literally says he doesn't know what to do as he passes out just before it takes him up and he has no clue where that area is or that it is even the control for the Crucible/Citadel. It isn't even actually the control, in one you destroy an important part in it, in another you merge your conscious with it to control it, and the third you add your essence to the beam. It isn't like a control panel or a big red button.

    Dislike the ending or the story all you want, but "he could just get to that area on his own" is not a legitimate stance to take for any justification.
    When Shepard is saying he doesn't know what to do he's in the process of passing out after being shot. It's not that far fetched to think he would continue onward to the crucible once he wakes up and is more coherent in a few seconds...considering he does that anyway. Yes, he doesn't know how to activate the thing yet during that scene. That doesn't mean he would just give up and wait to die.

    As for "he tried to kill you with TIM just seconds ago" that also really isn't the case. Indoctrination isn't a full, telepathic, control, it is suggestive and gets stronger over time. TIM is in the beginning stages and still has a fair amount of control, he was always on the crazy side.

    The catalyst also, likewise, doesn't have complete and total control over the Reapers and other synthetics. He can give them orders, give them a goal, but in the end they are intelligent in their own right. He in fact states that he can't stop them, as well as saying he won't. Being fully synthetic he also doesn't have the ability to do the synthesis entirely on his own because he has no organic to add. The fact that Shepard is already a mix of synthetic and organic also seems to be key, so not like he can just toss any old body into the thing.

    While the "star child" portrayal of the Catalyst might not be the most awe inspiring choice, I think having something to represent the Reapers, to talk to and confront, is important to the story. What we got being good or bad aside, and ending where the only contact with the enemy is indirect, coming from someone that was fighting against them with you for the majority of the story, and where you never see or hear from the enemy themselves, would be bad.
    So you're telling me that he has a control panel that he can use to pass complete control of the Reapers to Shepard, but he doesn't have the ability to tell them to stand down? Either they can be controlled or they can't. If they're individuals who don't have to listen to orders then the control ending doesn't work. You can't have it both ways. We know they can be given an order to stop attacking at any time, because Shepard literally does it if you pick that ending.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2019-03-15 at 01:19 AM.

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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    That's really stupid though. Not being able to get into the Crucible is more of a plothole then anything else. Having no idea how to work it is similarly bad. Like it sets things up for the Star Child to be necessary, but there was no reason to do things that way. Particularly since trusting the Star Child doesn't make sense, its motivations are really unclear, the explains it gives suck, and we have no attachment to the character at all.
    They pretty much said all along that they didn't know how it worked, but that they could build it with the information they had. Even the engineers and scientists working on it didn't know exactly what it was going to do or how it was going to do it. The destroy ending in particular points to that, you're not so much using the Crucible to kill them, you're destroying the Crucible, which destroys the Citadel/Catalyst which then destroys a lot of technology (not just AIs). It seems like it is essentially an EMP pulse that covers the entire galaxy as it propagates across the relays.

    The "highly advanced mental entity that is portrayed as something safe and familiar" is a very common trope, not exactly the most original thing to do, but I think it was vital to have *something* to represent the Reapers at the end, something that is directly "the leader" rather than "a high ranking soldier" (ie one random Reaper of the many that there are) and not some Indoctrinated slave. Considering that it is an AI, and one without a centralized body, they had to do something. I think the starchild was better than some screen talking to you. Some "giant talking processor" is also a very well used trope, so hardly a big change if they did go that way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    When Shepard is saying he doesn't know what to do he's in the process of passing out after being shot. It's not that far fetched to think he would continue onward to the crucible once he wakes up and is more coherent in a few seconds...considering he does that anyway. Yes, he doesn't know how to activate the thing yet during that scene. That doesn't mean he would just give up and wait to die.
    That is assuming where you ended up was even considered important enough to have people get there quickly and easily, it seems to be the interface between the Crucible and the Citadel, and nothing like a control panel or "normal operation" type of situation. Even after getting up he is barely dragging himself around, if it had been up a bunch of ladders, though a couple access hatches, and the like, he very well may not have survived the trip. Assuming he even figured out where to go, he only found that room by randomly wandering and getting lucky in that.

    You're clearly mentally re-writing the scene to fit your ideas rather than actually watching the scenes for what they actually are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    So you're telling me that he has a control panel that he can use to pass complete control of the Reapers to Shepard, but he doesn't have the ability to tell them to stand down? Either they can be controlled or they can't. If they're individuals who don't have to listen to orders then the control ending doesn't work. You can't have it both ways. We know they can be given an order to stop attacking at any time, because Shepard literally does it if you pick that ending.
    We don't know how much directly control he has, but considering that once Shepard's consciousness is integrated into the Catalyst, it takes the explosion and electrical pulse, for that to propagate through to every Reaper. They don't instantly stop, it clearly takes that huge energy to re-write them. The original Catalyst might have had no way to do that. It was also very clear that it was Shepard's life, experience, and actions, that gave him the mindset to make it work at all. The "right way to do things" may have simply been outside the capabilities of the original Catalyst. Much like all humans are essentially the same, but the kind of mind that it takes to be Einstein, or Beethoven, or Socrates, is unique. That just knowing "things need to be done differently" isn't enough to make things happen differently. The Reapers aren't simply given new commands, they are very clearly re-programmed with the essence of Shepard's mind.

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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    They pretty much said all along that they didn't know how it worked, but that they could build it with the information they had. Even the engineers and scientists working on it didn't know exactly what it was going to do or how it was going to do it. The destroy ending in particular points to that, you're not so much using the Crucible to kill them, you're destroying the Crucible, which destroys the Citadel/Catalyst which then destroys a lot of technology (not just AIs). It seems like it is essentially an EMP pulse that covers the entire galaxy as it propagates across the relays.

    The "highly advanced mental entity that is portrayed as something safe and familiar" is a very common trope, not exactly the most original thing to do, but I think it was vital to have *something* to represent the Reapers at the end, something that is directly "the leader" rather than "a high ranking soldier" (ie one random Reaper of the many that there are) and not some Indoctrinated slave. Considering that it is an AI, and one without a centralized body, they had to do something. I think the starchild was better than some screen talking to you. Some "giant talking processor" is also a very well used trope, so hardly a big change if they did go that way.
    There's not knowing how or what it's going to do, and there's literally not knowing how to turn the thing on.


    I disagree about it being vital for something to represent the Reapers in the end. There is almost no communication with the Reapers throughout ME3, so suddenly getting it at the end is, well unnecessary. The Reapers weren't characters in ME3, they were monsters. You can cut the Star Child out entirely and be talking to Jim the Dude with a Philosophy Degree the entire time and it would work exactly as well.

    It would've been better if the Reapers had been characters in ME3, and then you could do something like the Star Child and then it would be much more impactful because you've been talking to them all game.
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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    There's not knowing how or what it's going to do, and there's literally not knowing how to turn the thing on.
    Having worked in several industrial plants I wouldn't agree with that assumption. The control system on the computer beside me takes 3 screens to get to the "start/stop" section and it isn't in an intuitive place. Even ignoring the password requirements to get into the system, you can restart the system if it fails with a few clicks, but if it has been off for a while there are several different things that need to be done, several requiring travel to other buildings and opening valves. And this system is orders of magnitude smaller and easier to manage than the other plant I used to work at. That one takes around 8-12 hours to get production actually going and a minimum of 5-6 people (normal operation is about 15 operators, not even counting maintenance and foreman) and there are all sorts of manual tasks that have to be done in specific orders, you couldn't just guess your way through that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I disagree about it being vital for something to represent the Reapers in the end. There is almost no communication with the Reapers throughout ME3, so suddenly getting it at the end is, well unnecessary. The Reapers weren't characters in ME3, they were monsters. You can cut the Star Child out entirely and be talking to Jim the Dude with a Philosophy Degree the entire time and it would work exactly as well.

    It would've been better if the Reapers had been characters in ME3, and then you could do something like the Star Child and then it would be much more impactful because you've been talking to them all game.
    I think the Reapers almost had to be something you couldn't negotiate with. And while you didn't talk much with anyone from their side in 3, you did have more in the other games and it is a safe assumption that pretty much everyone playing the 3rd game has either played or at very least know the main points of the first two games. Although I think it would have helped a lot if they had done more to show why/how the Catalyst changed when the Crucible was installed.

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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    Having worked in several industrial plants I wouldn't agree with that assumption. The control system on the computer beside me takes 3 screens to get to the "start/stop" section and it isn't in an intuitive place. Even ignoring the password requirements to get into the system, you can restart the system if it fails with a few clicks, but if it has been off for a while there are several different things that need to be done, several requiring travel to other buildings and opening valves. And this system is orders of magnitude smaller and easier to manage than the other plant I used to work at. That one takes around 8-12 hours to get production actually going and a minimum of 5-6 people (normal operation is about 15 operators, not even counting maintenance and foreman) and there are all sorts of manual tasks that have to be done in specific orders, you couldn't just guess your way through that one.


    I think the Reapers almost had to be something you couldn't negotiate with. And while you didn't talk much with anyone from their side in 3, you did have more in the other games and it is a safe assumption that pretty much everyone playing the 3rd game has either played or at very least know the main points of the first two games. Although I think it would have helped a lot if they had done more to show why/how the Catalyst changed when the Crucible was installed.
    I think you are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying Shepred should just know all this, I'm saying the alliance of people who build the thing should know this.


    Can't negotiate with sure, but they could've still been people of a sort. And should've if they wanted to make the Star Child thing really work well. As is, I maintain that talking to pretty much anyone else would've been better, or at least, not any worse.
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    Default Re: (Spoilers)Mass Effect 2 ruined the Franchise, 3 was continuation of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    There's not knowing how or what it's going to do, and there's literally not knowing how to turn the thing on.
    They thought they knew how to turn it on. Hackett calls you in confusion saying something's wrong and it's not firing, so clearly they were expecting it to once attached. "It's gotta be something on your end" he supplies, without any suggestions as to what that might be, and Shepard replies with not having the foggiest notion what to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    It would've been better if the Reapers had been characters in ME3, and then you could do something like the Star Child and then it would be much more impactful because you've been talking to them all game.
    Well, you talk to Sovereign in 1, Harbinger in 2, and prior to the ending you speak to the Rannoch Reaper. So I don't think saying they're not characters is quite accurate.

    I agree that creating the first child in the series just to be the mouthpiece was not a good idea. Children in video games are often not done well.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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