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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterdeep Merch View Post
    I completely agree with this. You simply can't use the artillerist's turrets to accomplish anything a familiar could, while the homonculus is decisively better at everything any familiar that isn't a Pact of the Chain familiar can do. And I wouldn't call a PoC familiar necessarily superior, they're just better at different things.

    They're ungodly scouts with incredible utility. You don't even really care if they die, so you can intentionally throw them into the kind of dangerous situations you wouldn't want your rogue walking into.

    Speaking of, they're excellent backup for a proper party scout if you've got one. Buoyancy and Inspiration are great clutch abilities when traveling into the unknown, as is simply having a flying helper that might be able to have hands and thus use certain magic items. Immunity to poison's also an excellent toy for circumventing a very common sort of trap. For Absolute Shenanigans, grab Magic Initiate at some point and find familiar to make a small scouting squad.

    By comparison, the turrets are only helpful in combat. I'd say they're out-and-out worse for most games due to their lack of relevancy in wide swaths of gameplay.

    EDIT: Homonculus's having hands is technically not mentioned anywhere in the rules whatsoever, so it's difficult to say if they have them and can thus produce the somatic components needed for magic items.
    It's not mentioned in the rules, but the art for a standard homunculus provided shows they can have limbs and hands.
    Spoiler: Big Picture
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Trustypeaches View Post
    It's not mentioned in the rules, but the art for a standard homunculus provided shows they can have limbs and hands.
    Spoiler: Big Picture
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    That's from 3.x, though. They had a somewhat different flavor back then. The new stuff explicitly mentions that it's appearance "...includes wings and bits of alchemical equipment. Some alchemists prefer mechanical-looking birds, whereas others like winged vials or miniature cauldrons." Theoretically this doesn't prevent limbs made out of alchemical equipment, but it would suggest that the old homunculus from 3.x simply can't be made with this feature.

    Meanwhile, I just noticed another irritating disability for the turret- you have to have your smith tools in hand to summon it. That causes problems on your first round of combat, and any subsequent ones where you need to summon a new one. This can mean you don't get your basic attacks on those turns if you're using either a shield or a crossbow.

    EDIT AGAIN: Oh, that was already a problem. Summoning a turret takes an action.

    Given that most combat encounters are decided in roughly three rounds, I think the homunculus might actually be superior for damage in your average fight. Turrets only prove themselves if you either saw the fight coming and summoned them first (though hey, no stealth proficiency- you're not sneaking up on them if you do this) or the combat lasts several rounds and nothing decides to destroy it.
    Last edited by Waterdeep Merch; 2019-05-01 at 12:59 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterdeep Merch View Post
    That's from 3.x, though.
    That picture is from the 5E Monster Manual under the Homunculus section.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Daghoulish View Post
    That picture is from the 5E Monster Manual under the Homunculus section.
    Ah, so it is.

    Still, it's not really the same thing being described here. I guess this is more like how the DMG eladrin barely has anything to do with the one that appeared in Xanathar's.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Dungeon-noob View Post
    Okay, so great that you go so in depth. I just want to point a few things out. Deploying the turrets always only costs one action, when you have more turrets you just deploy more at once. Second, the turrets provide more then just pure damage, like forced movement or easy temp HP. That makes it harder to compare them to BA attacks. Third, you don't need to deploy them that often, so spell slot costs are likely to be minimal. Though that obivously depends on your tactics and DMs campaign, so YMMW.

    I mostly agree on the Homonculus analysis, except that i feel it isn't quite sturdy enough to really be safe at the front lines, more like a melee rogue in terms of safety.
    I'm going to go a bit further into this now.

    The Homunculus doesn't always compete with Crossbow Expert
    While the Homunculus's bonus action attack is definitely weaker than Crossbow Expert's bonus action attack, it should still see frequent usage. Crossbow Expert's bonus action attack requires that you spend your action on the Attack action, and often you'll want to use your action to do something else. So on any turn that you spend your action Casting a Spell, using a (Magic) Item, Dashing, Dodging, Disengaging, or performing any kind of context-specific ability check (escaping grapples, climbing a cliff, etc.) you still have a resource-less usage of your bonus action to squeeze out some extra damage. This consequentially reduces the opportunity cost of not taking the Attack action for the BA attack, which is a complaint I've heard from players with the XBE feat before.

    Acidic Spittle isn't the only use for an Alchemists Bonus Action Command
    Since you mentioned that the turrets provide more then just pure damage with its bonus action, it's worth mentioning that the Homunculus does as well.
    • The Resilience Salve can provide Temporary hit points in a pinch to buffer a low health target or reinforce a front-liner. While it can't provide the same throughput as the Temp HP turret, it is far cheaper to apply only costing a bonus action and one of three daily salve uses as opposed to an action, a bonus action, and possibly a spell slot. It can also be easier to apply given the Homunculus's faster movement and ability to fly to ignore difficult terrain and enemies separating it from the target.
    • The Inspiration salve provides advantage on a number of Ability checks equal to your Intelligence modifier. This includes Ability checks made for Counterspell, Dispel Magic, grappling and shoving, breaking free of restraining effects or spells, and performing all manner of context-specific ability checks like climbing walls, intimidating enemies, searching for invisible enemies, making long jumps, etc.
    • The Help action is among the list of commands you can give the Homunculus as a bonus action, without expending any resources. That on it's own is an entire feature for the Mastermind Rogue. The primary benefit of this is to provide advantage on Attack rolls, which the Homunculus can do far more consistently than the familiar since it's higher HP mean it's not prone to being one-shot by an AoE spell or a single weapon attack. Outside of Attack rolls, what it can feasibly 'Help' with might depend on your DM, but it's high stats and intelligence imply should be a lot.
    While it's true that some of these abilities rely on a limited resources (like the salves) and others may only have contextual value (Inspiration salve / Help action), there are many situations where they may be a better use of your bonus action than attacking with the hand crossbow. And remember, if you don't spend your action on the Attack action, they aren't even competing with the XBE attack.

    Cheap and Versatile
    It's easy to compare raw numbers and undervalue the Homunculus when comparing it to the turrets. But unlike the turrets, the Homunculus is not on a timer, doesn't require an action to activate, and doesn't have to commit to a single function when summoned. The Homunculus offers tremendous utility by always having all these options available to it for the cheap, cheap cost of a bonus action.

    It's Useful on the Front Line
    I disagree that the Homunculus isn't sturdy enough to be used on the front lines: it has a sizable chunk of health, enough to not get wiped out by a single hit, AoE spell, or damage aura / effect. More important, I disagree that it being relatively frail is necessarily a problem. Remember that every attack enemies make against the Homunculus is an attack that isn't made against you or your allies. And if it dies, it costs merely a 1st level spell slot to revive it, good as new. If you want to keep the Homunculus alive however, it's not hard since it has a ranged attack and can fly to avoid melee attackers and stay out of the probably area of effect of spells.


    Given all of this, in addition to the out-of-combat utility I outlined before, I really feel as though the Homunculus deserves a gold ranking. It is enormously useful both in and out of combat and is far more versatile and less limited than the turrets that were given the same ranking.
    Last edited by Trustypeaches; 2019-05-02 at 05:10 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    A few suggestions.

    Arcane Jolt: Green -> Blue
    It's not the extra damage that's amazing, it's the ACTION-LESS CHEAP HEALING. Screw healing word or other subclasses with bonus action healing like Dream Druids and Celestial Warlocks, you're able to revive unconscious targets without using an action, bonus action, or even a reaction. That's crazy good.

    Arcane Turret: Gold -> Blue
    I also still think you're overvaluing the Arcane Turret a bit given their drawbacks, personally. I won't restate since I've said it all before, but I'd only rank it Blue. You can reference my earlier points here

    Returning Weapon (Infusion): Gold -> Blue
    Even if you have someone in your party who can make use of Thrown Weapons, it's not exactly an "optimal" strategy worthy of gold ranking IMO. It's the only way to make the "Thrown" playstyle viable, but the Thrown build is still bad compared to other options.

    Arcane Weapon (Spell): Blue-> Gold
    I have no idea why this isn't ranked at gold tbh. Repeating Infusion + Arcane Weapon crossbows is the Artificer's hands down best damage option, even if you only leave your Dex at 16 and focus on Intelligence.

    I look forward to seeing your updated rankings for the new spells added to their list like Faerie Fire and Vitriolic Sphere.
    Last edited by Trustypeaches; 2019-05-30 at 01:00 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    The new spell list has been added, and with that I believe this guide is done, content-wise, though clearly ratings will be an ongoing revision.

    Your suggestions are reasonable, Trustypeaches, and I've implemented them. I had actually meant to downgrade the Arcane Turret after actually playing Artillerist but I guess I just neglected to the touch the older subclasses.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    iron defender hit points.
    are they calculated like this 5xlevel + its con + your int, or is it level (5 +its con + your int)?

    also op can you make the green a little less harsh of a color.
    Last edited by Torpin; 2019-05-31 at 11:12 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    I believe that it is written badly just as you experienced, with there being 3 different variations depending on how you read it, and the 2nd one makes the most sense to me although there is a strong argument for the last one as well due to it being designed as a tank to defend high intelligence Battle-Smiths, although it scales to some ridiculous levels.

    My RAW: (5 x level) + your Intelligence Modifier + Constitution Modifier
    -This is likely RAW but it is pointless as it won't receive any real benefits for higher stats, so no real scaling for the ID.
    -Level 5 with an 18 intelligence stat = 31
    -Level 20 Battle-Smith with 20 Intelligence = 107

    My RAI: Level x (5 + its Constitution Modifier) + (your intelligence modifier)
    -This is closest to a normal monsters health points, with a minor and likely irrelevant buff for this with higher intelligence.
    -Level 5 with an 18 stat = 39 health...
    -Level 20 Battle-Smith with 20 Intelligence = 145

    Argument: (Level x (5+ your Intelligence Modifier + its Constitution Modifier)
    -This is a very powerful form of the rules, and likely allows a Battle-Smith to have a much more resilient pet.
    -Level 5 with an 18 intelligence = 55 health...
    -Level 20 Battle-Smith with 20 Intelligence = 240!
    Last edited by Citadel97501; 2019-06-01 at 01:42 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    Also remember to update your description for Arcane Armament, since it was written before the addition of Repeating Shot.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Citadel97501 View Post
    I believe that it is written badly just as you experienced, with there being 3 different variations depending on how you read it, and the 2nd one makes the most sense to me although there is a strong argument for the last one as well due to it being designed as a tank to defend high intelligence Battle-Smiths, although it scales to some ridiculous levels.

    My RAW: (5 x level) + your Intelligence Modifier + Constitution Modifier
    -This is likely RAW but it is pointless as it won't receive any real benefits for higher stats, so no real scaling for the ID.
    -Level 5 with an 18 intelligence stat = 31
    -Level 20 Battle-Smith with 20 Intelligence = 107

    My RAI: Level x (5 + its Constitution Modifier) + (your intelligence modifier)
    -This is closest to a normal monsters health points, with a minor and likely irrelevant buff for this with higher intelligence.
    -Level 5 with an 18 stat = 39 health...
    -Level 20 Battle-Smith with 20 Intelligence = 145

    Argument: (Level x (5+ your Intelligence Modifier + its Constitution Modifier)
    -This is a very powerful form of the rules, and likely allows a Battle-Smith to have a much more resilient pet.
    -Level 5 with an 18 intelligence = 55 health...
    -Level 20 Battle-Smith with 20 Intelligence = 240!
    Now consider this: you could give your pet an Amulet of Health.

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    Played a Battlesmith last night who for story reasons had his intelligence gimped, as I was looking over my spelllists trying to purge all the ones with Difficulty Checks, I noticed that Searing Smite is strictly worse than Arcane Weapon for soooo many reasons, not the least of which is that you can't cast them together because they're both concentration spells.

    There is literally no reason an artificer would ever, ever use Searing Smite unless Arcane Weapon is not allowed and even then....

    What is a good alternative I might convince my DM into reconsidering?
    Last edited by Haldir; 2019-06-01 at 10:42 AM.
    Back in my day we used all of our spells before the fight, and it was just a matter of time before the DM realized his encounter was over.
    And we walked to our dungeons uphill through the snow, both ways.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Haldir View Post
    Played a Battlesmith last night who for story reasons had his intelligence gimped, as I was looking over my spelllists trying to purge all the ones with Difficulty Checks, I noticed that Searing Smite is strictly worse than Arcane Weapon for soooo many reasons, not the least of which is that you can't cast them together because they're both concentration spells.

    There is literally no reason an artificer would ever, ever use Searing Smite unless Arcane Weapon is not allowed and even then....

    What is a good alternative I might convince my DM into reconsidering?
    Well shield of faith isn't on their main spell list anymore, but it makes thematic sense for the battlesmith. It's concentration so you can't use it with arcane weapon either, but at least it isn't a straight-up inferior version of another spell you've already got.

    If you could pick any first level spell, armor of agathys would be a strong choice.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    Now consider this: you could give your pet an Amulet of Health.
    Brilliant idea, that would be very cool :) new math with amulet of health on the Iron Defender.

    My RAI: Level x (5 + its Constitution Modifier) + (your intelligence modifier)
    -This is closest to a normal monsters health points, with a minor and likely irrelevant buff for this with higher intelligence.
    -Level 16 Battle-Smith with 20 Intelligence = 149
    -Level 20 Battle-Smith with 20 Intelligence = 185

    Argument: (Level x (5+ your Intelligence Modifier + its Constitution Modifier)
    -This is a very powerful form of the rules, and likely allows a Battle-Smith to have a much more resilient pet.
    -Level 16 Battle-Smith with 20 Intelligence = 224
    -Level 20 Battle-Smith with 20 Intelligence = 280

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    Finally fixed the spell list, and updated Subclass rankings based on playtesting I've done since first writing this. I haven't played Archivist yet myself, so I would appreciate if anyone could provide feedback on my preliminary assessment of the subclass.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    As far as I can tell the most recent artificer no longer has tool expertise only applying to prof given by the class. So now you can get double prof from say tool prof you get from your background or even ones you bought using time and money during down time.

    Not huge but can be fairly nifty.
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  17. - Top - End - #47
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    Having actually helped one in play now, I think the artillerist is actually the stealth-best archetype overall. The turrets are extremely underwhelming in play thanks to their limitations, that much ended up true. Their extra spells are certainly a good bunch, though. Wand Prototype is okay, and Fortified Position is a neat buff that makes the limited turret feel better.

    But their ability to craft wands quickly at a discount is what really does it. Especially if you're using Xanathar's crafting

    Four days and 100 gp nets a Wand of Magic Missile. A weapon with 7 charges that never misses and can be wielded by anyone. 1,000 gp and 18 days gets you a Wand of Fireballs, which, though requiring attunement, isn't so expensive or time consuming that you can't conceivably make several late game and burn through them with abandon, using short rests to switch out.

    Screw their Wand Prototype bonuses- bring heavy magical ordnance to every fight.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    Your rating of Acid Splash states the Alchemist adds the bonus damage to both targets, but the phrasing of the feature won’t grant that. Currently it states you add the bonus to a single damage roll of a spell. “When you cast a spell using your alchemist’s supplies as the spellcasting focus, you gain a bonus to one roll of the spell. That roll must restore hit points or be a damage roll that deals acid or poison damage, and the bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1).“

    Given that limitation, I would rate the feature as quite weak and Acid Splash remains mediocre-to-okay even for Alchemists.

    The Archivist bonus damage applies to all rolls for whatever reason. So it would get the bonus damage every round on Phantasmal Killer, though I agree that still doesn’t lift the spell beyond mediocrity.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    My understanding is that since it applies to one damage roll, if that one roll applies to multiple targets the damage to each is boosted. By contrast something like Aasimar transformations specifies one *target*, which would work the way you’re describing. So something like Vitriolic Sphere would have its initial damage boosted on each target, but not the second damage tick.

    At least that’s how my Alchemist’s table has been running it. If this isn’t actually RAI, I would love to know.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by P196 PHB
    If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them.
    One roll (to which you add the bonus) to all targets.

    It works the same as the dragons sorcs Elemental Affinity for reference.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    You’re right, I misunderstood the mechanic.

    I would suggest adding a couple suggested uses for Many Handed Pouch. It’s easy to dismiss as a fluff item but it means you can pool your healing potions, pass notes across the city, or for Archivists create a telepathic network for your entire party with a single infusion. Archivists being able to ritual cast Comprehend Languages means you can essentially be a telepathic Babelfish for your team.
    Last edited by Evaar; 2019-07-20 at 02:16 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    Great catch about the Archivist, thank you!

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    I like the guide a lot, good job. Just a little input (Im playing 2 Artificers, an Alchemist and an Archivist, in separate campaigns right now)

    I think you're a little fast and loose with the gold ratings, looking over the Racial options.

    Half-Elf, for example, i do not think is the same level option as High Elf.

    I also think it's worth noting just how good Artificial Mind actually is.

    You can see/hear through it, you can cast spells through it (limited), it has an attack, and it's invulnerable. My DM had to nerf it, because theres nothing to stop me from hiding 200 ft away, floating my Artificial Mind over, and simply killing everything with Information Overload with an invincible Familiar.
    Last edited by Tallytrev813; 2019-07-23 at 10:12 AM.
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  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    Thanks for the guide - very informative!

    Minor formatting issue - do you think you could change the shade of green you use? It doesn't show up especially well, especially in the spoiler blocks.

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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    Are you planning on adding the XGtE feats to this guide?

    (If they are here and I missed them please let me know)

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    Added the Xanathar feats, thanks for catching the oversight.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    I think you're undervaluing the Tiny Servants: they're a great way to get the most out of the Spell Storage Item. Effectively, it lets you cast a first or second level spell which would normally cost an action using a bonus action, to mentally command one of the Servants to do it for you. If you have multiple Servants then you can command them all with the same bonus action, which means they could all cast said spell on one round.

    The potential is huge. Even just considering ways to add damage to your build, imagine being an artillarist with a Tiny Servant and a SSI with Scorching Ray. Every round as a bonus action you can order it to cast Scorching Ray for you. 6d6 damage for a bonus action isn't bad. But if you know you're going to be handling something extra tough, blow a few extra spell slots to make 10 Tiny Servants, and on your turn you order ALL of them to use your Spell Storing Item to cast Scorching Ray at once. Within one round, they will have dealt 60d6 damage to the guy. And because you're an artificer, chances are these aren't just animated little goobers that pop out of your backpack holding a toaster, these are integrated components which operate a super-weapon you have built into your armor.

    Or a defensive alternative, be a Battlesmith and store Warding Bond in your SSI. Before combat begins, order one of your Servants to cast it on you. This gives you a massive protective boost, +1 to AC and all saves and resistance to everything. Of course, as soon as an attack gets through your defenses that Servant is likely to go poof because it's measly 10 HP is nothing at this level of play and it takes the same amount of damage you do, but good news! With another bonus action, you can get another Tiny Servant to cast the spell on you (assuming you had a spare, and you should), giving you a nice, consistent source of defensive magic. And like the Artillarist's Plasma Cannon listed above, this setup doesn't have to be explained as several random animated objects sharing a magic ring, this can be a well designed machine, with intelligent components that constantly weaves a field of defensive magic around you.

    Interestingly, Tiny Servants can also be used to throw Magic Stones. So that's fun.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    So does Archivist break Sanctuary? Information overload uses your spell save DC but you aren’t actually casting a spell, and since it’s save based you aren’t making an attack roll either.

    Also I feel like the many handed pouch got a little underrated. By strict RAW I think you can put a bag of holding in there which effectively lets the whole party access a collective inventory, and you can use the Archivist telepathy to talk to 5 people with only one infusion (in case you want to keep them all for yourself). There also seems to be a lot of potential with the spell storing feature, if by RAW a tiny servant can activate the stored spells and if you had one of them in there they could be ready to drop a healing spell on anyone who went down.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Meichrob7 View Post
    Also I feel like the many handed pouch got a little underrated. By strict RAW I think you can put a bag of holding in there which effectively lets the whole party access a collective inventory, and you can use the Archivist telepathy to talk to 5 people with only one infusion (in case you want to keep them all for yourself).
    Quote Originally Posted by Pouch
    A cloth or leather pouch can hold 1/5 cubic foot/ 6 pounds of gear
    Quote Originally Posted by Bag of Holding
    This bag has an interior space considerably larger than its outside dimensions, roughly 2 feet in diameter at the mouth and 4 feet deep. ... The bag weighs 15 pounds, regardless of its contents.
    Bag of Holding def wouldn't fit in a pouch.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: For Science! A Guide to the Revisited Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Meichrob7 View Post
    So does Archivist break Sanctuary? Information overload uses your spell save DC but you aren’t actually casting a spell, and since it’s save based you aren’t making an attack roll either.
    Sanctuary has been erratad to read

    “If the warded
    creature makes an attack, casts a spell
    that affects an enemy, or deals damage
    to another creature, this spell ends.”
    Since the wording of Information Overload says that the Archivist is the triggerer of the ability/damage, you would lose it upon damaging an enemy

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