Captain Marvel (2019) - Reviews + Discussion

[Erys]

Yeah, I liked the take on the Mandarin. I was rolling my eyes at the terrorist videos and was delighted when they decided to take it in a different direction.

The big problem with Iron Man 3 is that it doesn't really follow through with any of its plot points. The Mandarin thing just sort of falls apart at that point in the movie, Killian is supremely boring as a villain who...got mad when Tony snubbed him? I even watched the movie again recently and I can't recall his motivation more clearly than that. He's just so unmemorable. Stark's PTSD doesn't really get a satisfying conclusion, the kid sidekick (who was awesome) sods off back home halfway through the film, and the generic enhanced super-soldiers are the very definition of "mook".

I think Iron Man 3 was the first time they were really trying to get outside the "superhero movie" genre and dip into a sub-genre, but they kinda chickened out partway and didn't really nail genre-blending until Winter Soldier.

I'd say that is a pretty spot on review sir.

[Velaryon]

For me that was the beauty of reveal.

Without being specific- history is full of events where fictitious narratives are formed around events, or people, (or both!) to mold and manipulate public opinion.

That is exactly what Killian was doing through the use of actor-Mandarian. Just like the movie, often the fear/anger (and subsequent response) generated by a false narrative is greater than the real (but obfuscated) threat.

And that would be fine, except that Killian is not very interesting to me. Him propping up the actor-Mandarin to stir up fear and generate arms sales is fine. Him gaining powers so he and his Extremis-powered goons can slug it out with Iron Man and his automated suits was a massive letdown for me, though. I think partnering Killian with another more interesting villain (I don't have anyone in particular in mind, since I'm not overly familiar with Iron Man's rogues' gallery) might have worked better.

[GloatingSwine]

(I don't have anyone in particular in mind, since I'm not overly familiar with Iron Man's rogues' gallery)

This is kind of the problem. Iron Man's rogues gallery is not strong or deep*, and some of it is just out of date now.

The Mandarin is the classic example. He's about the biggest Iron Man villain, and he's basically Fu Manchu, one of the classical racist depictions of Chinese people as the inscrutable foreign menace. So trying to use him as presented in the comics would strangle the MCU in its crib.

Crimson Dynamo is one of those holdover characters from when Soviet Russia was a thing so he doesn't make sense any more.

Titanium Man just sounds like he's compensating for something, and is basically yet another In Soviet Russia Man Irons You! character.

Fin Fang Foom is a dragon from space with a silly name, who would probably work as a villain now (at least for the Guardians of the Galaxy or post-Ragnarok Thor) but would have been far too out-there for the normies when any of the Iron Man movies were being made.

So what we got was Whiplash (who is just generically Russian, not a Soviet agent like IM's other Russian adversaries, despite having the same name as one of the Crimson Dynamos), Ironmonger and two Ironmonger clones without the personal connection to Tony because "evil weapons dealer industrialist" is an easy go-to. (Justin Hammer is at least a comics villain)

That said, Tony Stark's self-destructive tendencies are usually villain enough for him to deal with, and IM3 mostly focused on that. Though they didn't go all in on Demon in a Bottle for IM2.



* This is true of quite a lot of Marvel characters. Most of them get their really good villains by stealing them off Spider-Man.

[tonberrian]

What would be a good movie might be an adaption of the Armor Wars storyline, where the Spymaster steals Stark's designs and sells them on the black market, and then Stark goes and starts beating up all sorts of power armor people because he can't legally make them stop using his tech.

In fact, this would be a good way to retire Stark as Iron Man and introduce, say, Riri Williams as Iron Heart, by changing the end of the story.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Fin Fang Foom is a dragon from space with a silly name, who would probably work as a villain now (at least for the Guardians of the Galaxy or post-Ragnarok Thor) but would have been far too out-there for the normies when any of the Iron Man movies were being made.

The main problem I can see with Fin Fang Foom is, well...how do you justify him being an Iron Man villain specifically, especially within the MCU? (Honestly, he makes way more sense as a Thor villain, if anything.)

[GloatingSwine]

The main problem I can see with Fin Fang Foom is, well...how do you justify him being an Iron Man villain specifically, especially within the MCU? (Honestly, he makes way more sense as a Thor villain, if anything.)

He's bounced around a lot in the comics without really arching for anyone (he predates most of the Marvel heroes in their current form, in fact), but he did have a fair chunk of fights with Tony, especially in the '90s.

Of course, his most classic appearance was in NextWAVE.

But really, even by comic book standards Fin Fang Foom is quite silly.

[Vizzerdrix]

Saw Capt. Marvel last night. I wasn't impressed. The thing with F and G was just stupid.

[Cikomyr]

Saw Capt. Marvel last night. I wasn't impressed. The thing with F and G was just stupid.

F and G? Wzzat?

[Devonix]

F and G? Wzzat?

Probably means Fury and Goose.

[Tyndmyr]

Probably means Fury and Goose.

It's amusing in the moment, but does kinda end up being a letdown when you think about the larger context of Fury. Quotes like "the last time I trusted someone, I lost an eye" don't work quite as well, yknow?

[Mordar]

I think Iron Man 3 was the first time they were really trying to get outside the "superhero movie" genre and dip into a sub-genre, but they kinda chickened out partway and didn't really nail genre-blending until Winter Soldier.

Only 11 months separated Winter Solider and Iron Man 3, only one movies between the two. There was no time to reverse course and try anything new there was no time to chicken out.

The decision to go sub-genre for Iron Man 3 and Captain America 2, and so on was a key decision made in Part 2 of the MCU plot. You needed to brand these movies in a different way for you are doing 2 movies a year now from 2013+ on, and in 2017+ we are now doing 3 movies a year now. 😕

This strikes me as odd, but after thinking about it I can understand the position. Winter Soldier wasn't, IMO, sub-genre or genre-blending. It was an excellent match for the Captain America comics I remember (he was never a favorite of mine, but was in the "second tier" so I did get a decent smattering of his books). To me it was a better version of a Captain America superhero story than the Iron Man movies (better represented the Captain America books than Iron Man I or III represented the Iron Man books I had read back in the day - IM II was closer, and for me my favorite).

This is kind of the problem. Iron Man's rogues gallery is not strong or deep*, and some of it is just out of date now.

The Mandarin is the classic example...Crimson Dynamo is one of those holdover characters from when Soviet Russia was a thing...Titanium Man just sounds like he's compensating for something...

So what we got was Whiplash (who is just generically Russian, not a Soviet agent like IM's other Russian adversaries, despite having the same name as one of the Crimson Dynamos), Ironmonger and two Ironmonger clones without the personal connection to Tony because "evil weapons dealer industrialist" is an easy go-to. (Justin Hammer is at least a comics villain)

That said, Tony Stark's self-destructive tendencies are usually villain enough for him to deal with, and IM3 mostly focused on that. Though they didn't go all in on Demon in a Bottle for IM2.

I always really liked Whiplash/Blacklash...particularly the sequences where he was hanging with Melter and Blizzard. That's probably part of why I liked IMII best of the three...it wasn't a mirror fight. Additionally, I liked War Machine and the blowing-up-all-the-drones sequences...that also felt like the IM comics I remembered.

I had moved off IM solo books before the Demon in a Bottle storyline, so the self-destructive Tony Stark never really presented itself to me. Just more of the edge-seeking. So while maybe RDJ matches some (a lot?) of people's ideal IM from the beginning I always felt the portrayal was a little too RDJ and not quite enough Tony Stark. Clearly, though, it worked and a healthy proportion of people disagree with me.

- M

[Iruka]

Finally saw it yesterday and it was pretty good.

Spoiler: Just in case

Show

Larson did a good job (except for running funny), the plot was not very original but decent enough (did however not see the Skrull/Kree reversal coming), action sequences were okay but nothing special in terms of choreography. I kinda wish it was more Danvers, Fury, Rambeau, Talos and Goose going on a roadtrip.

In total a very fun experience, however not one where we could take the stakes as being serious. Towards the end we were joking if McGonagall had a hand in making them participate in a pod race and if she was still carrying that galaxy around.

It's amusing in the moment, but does kinda end up being a letdown when you think about the larger context of Fury. Quotes like "the last time I trusted someone, I lost an eye" don't work quite as well, yknow?

Especially since the actual reason he lost the eye is most likely him being all "'tis but a scratch". So, he does not trust himself anymore?

They should have kept it vague as that incredibly badass thing he did at some point in the past.

[Cikomyr]

I always really liked Whiplash/Blacklash...particularly the sequences where he was hanging with Melter and Blizzard. That's probably part of why I liked IMII best of the three...it wasn't a mirror fight. Additionally, I liked War Machine and the blowing-up-all-the-drones sequences...that also felt like the IM comics I remembered.

But that's an opinion entirely shaped by out of movie context. It's entirely indépendant of the actual movie quality

[Velaryon]

This is kind of the problem. Iron Man's rogues gallery is not strong or deep*, and some of it is just out of date now.

The Mandarin is the classic example. He's about the biggest Iron Man villain, and he's basically Fu Manchu, one of the classical racist depictions of Chinese people as the inscrutable foreign menace. So trying to use him as presented in the comics would strangle the MCU in its crib.

Right, which is why I have no problem with the bait-and-switch in principle. It would be really hard to portray the Mandarin as he was in the comics without coming off as racist. And I've heard from others that many of Iron Man's other notable villains are also Cold War stereotypes, which is indeed a problem. So, maybe that's a thing Marvel needs to work on?

At least in the future they can use Dr. Doom, and if they're really in a pinch maybe some of the X-Men villains (though I actually prefer the various mutants in a separate continuity).

[GloatingSwine]

Finally saw it yesterday and it was pretty good.

Spoiler: Just in case

Show

Larson did a good job (except for running funny),

Spoiler

Show

That's probably because she was trying to run like she was running fast, alongside Samuel L Jackson who is 72 and not all that fast any more.

So trying to look fast, but actually not going that fast.

[Iruka]

Spoiler

Show

That's probably because she was trying to run like she was running fast, alongside Samuel L Jackson who is 72 and not all that fast any more.

So trying to look fast, but actually not going that fast.

Spoiler

Show

I noticed it when she chases the train. Maybe constraints of the costume.

[Mordar]

But that's an opinion entirely shaped by out of movie context. It's entirely indépendant of the actual movie quality

I don't understand. Are you suggesting that I judged my enjoyment of the movie based on things from my life outside of the film itself? That seems pretty intuitive to me, which is why I'm confused. Sadly derivative version of Whiplash aside, the liking War Machine and IM blowing up all the drones was a statement of appreciation for something right in the movie. That it hearkens back to comics read long ago is a side note, but something that could have been entirely intentional on the part of the production, and arguably a statement of quality (if they intended it to be reminiscent of scenes from things outside the movie, they clearly succeeded in that goal).

Or is this a suggestion that there are a set of objective criteria that would speak to the actual movie quality? There might well be, but I could never be sufficiently qualified to score a movie on such criteria. I can only judge what I like and try to understand why.

- M

[Aotrs Commander]

Samuel L Jackson who is 72

70, not 72. Because I had to go and look it up, because I couldn't believe that was really his age.

Consider my mind completely boggled.

[Ramza00]

70, not 72. Because I had to go and look it up, because I couldn't believe that was really his age.

Consider my mind completely boggled.

My mind is boggled that he, Samuel L Jackson, is 40 years and 9 months older than Brie Larson. I knew he was decades older than Brie, but not 4 decades older.

[LibraryOgre]

I saw it yesterday with my wife (Yay for grandparents who watch kids!).

Really enjoyed pretty much every minute of it. Like how it possibly sets up Secret Invasion as Avengers 5, by introducing the Skrulls.

[Psyren]

I saw it yesterday with my wife (Yay for grandparents who watch kids!).

Really enjoyed pretty much every minute of it. Like how it possibly sets up Secret Invasion as Avengers 5, by introducing the Skrulls.

Does it? Secret Invasion hinges on the Skrulls being evil, doesn't it?.

[Kato]

Does it? Secret Invasion hinges on the Skrulls being evil, doesn't it?.

Well, because there have been a few good ones thirty years ago doesn't mean there can't be bad ones with different plans now.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, because there have been a few good ones thirty years ago doesn't mean there can't be bad ones with different plans now.

Or indeed, that they might not be a monolithic culture once they're not in a desperate flight for survival mode, and there are both good people and bad people amongst them. I could see a Skrull dropping in to let Captain Marvel know that a splinter group is infiltrating Earth because Plot.

That said, since I have no attachment to this "Secret Invasion" business, I would also not be particularly hyped for such development.

Grey Wolf

[Eldan]

I thought the various Skrull-countermeasures the Kree special forces employed were one of the more interesting things in the movie, so I'd be down for a Secret Invasion. Either as a CM2 or an Avengers 5.

[Cikomyr]

Or indeed, that they might not be a monolithic culture once they're not in a desperate flight for survival mode, and there are both good people and bad people amongst them. I could see a Skrull dropping in to let Captain Marvel know that a splinter group is infiltrating Earth because Plot.

That said, since I have no attachment to this "Secret Invasion" business, I would also not be particularly hyped for such development.

Grey Wolf

The less the MCU introduces the concept of "what you saw is not what happened" the better. Nothing worse than learning the bad guy from 2 movies ago was secretly doombot or a skrull infiltrate.

It's a very bad plot device that allows writers a cheap out of a hard situation they wrote themselves in.

[LibraryOgre]

Does it? Secret Invasion hinges on the Skrulls being evil, doesn't it?.

Spoiler: Secret Invasion, mild spoilers

Show

So, yeah. But, really, nothing says the Skrulls in Captain Marvel aren't jerk... they're just jerks currently being stomped on by other jerks.

Besides, I want Nick Fury to say my favorite line.

"Well, MY god has a hammer."

[Rodin]

The less the MCU introduces the concept of "what you saw is not what happened" the better. Nothing worse than learning the bad guy from 2 movies ago was secretly doombot or a skrull infiltrate.

It's a very bad plot device that allows writers a cheap out of a hard situation they wrote themselves in.

While I agree with the premise here (no clones, no doombots, no people who were suddenly spies for 4 movies), I do think a full movie focusing on a hidden enemy could be a lot of fun. Kinda like Winter Soldier, where everybody and anybody could be a Hydra agent. Captain Marvel gave us a taster of it, but the shapeshifting aspect of the Skrulls wasn't the main focus of the plot.

If the MCU were to cover a full "evil shapeshifters are everywhere" plot, I'd be on board to see what they do with it.

[Cikomyr]

While I agree with the premise here (no clones, no doombots, no people who were suddenly spies for 4 movies), I do think a full movie focusing on a hidden enemy could be a lot of fun. Kinda like Winter Soldier, where everybody and anybody could be a Hydra agent. Captain Marvel gave us a taster of it, but the shapeshifting aspect of the Skrulls wasn't the main focus of the plot.

If the MCU were to cover a full "evil shapeshifters are everywhere" plot, I'd be on board to see what they do with it.

A fully self contained story of infiltration and paranoia would be cool.

Make it a Black Widow movie, with the thematic centering around her trust issues.

[Cikomyr]

Absolutely no stand alone movies need the Marvel Universe. That's what make them stand alone movies.

Thor, Iron Man, Cap... All of them would have worked outside of the Marvel Universe.

[Rakaydos]

Absolutely no stand alone movies need the Marvel Universe. That's what make them stand alone movies.

Thor, Iron Man, Cap... All of them would have worked outside of the Marvel Universe.

Do you consider Civil War a standalone movie?