Why doesn't V have Contingency?

[Lacuna Caster]

No wizard in their right mind would bar conjuration. And all wizards are very intelligent, right?

So, why did V bar it?

Because the laws of the universe were revised since then. (As it happens, I don't think there is anything inherently story-breaking about teleportation magic- it's used all the time in major franchises like Harry Potter or Star Wars (via the hyperdrive)- but that's another discussion.)

[zimmerwald1915]

Because the laws of the universe were revised since then. (As it happens, I don't think there is anything inherently story-breaking about teleportation magic- it's used all the time in major franchises like Harry Potter or Star Wars (via the hyperdrive)- but that's another discussion.)

I struggle to imagine Conjuration without teleportation, and I haven't read the 3.0 spell lists. But it seems to me that Vaarsuvius initially banned the schools that were most associated with creating minions. This would fit nicely with her character, as invoked by Zz'drti - if I summon an outsider or create an undead to solve my problems, then I didn't really solve my problems, did I?

[Riftwolf]

I struggle to imagine Conjuration without teleportation, and I haven't read the 3.0 spell lists. But it seems to me that Vaarsuvius initially banned the schools that were most associated with creating minions. This would fit nicely with her character, as invoked by Zz'drti - if I summon an outsider or create an undead to solve my problems, then I didn't really solve my problems, did I?

I think Teleport can fit under Transmutation if you think of it as manipulating space-time, which is a bit neater than 'summoning myself to one of three alternate dimensions then summoning myself back by a variety of methods to travel between two points' (my take on conjure-porting) (not canon AFAIK)

[Kish]

Harry Potter established as soon as it introduced teleportation at all that the site of most of the books' action was the equivalent of dimensionally locked.

[woweedd]

Harry Potter established as soon as it introduced teleportation at all that the site of most of the books' action was the equivalent of dimensionally locked.

Thank you, Kish.

[Snails]

Until the current moment, V prided herself in being prepared for anything because they believed that there was no problem that couldn't be solved by sufficient amount of firepower. Contingency doesn't increase firepower, so it would not have been a priority for old V.

Exactly this.

Younger V's definition of being "smarter and better" is believing that magic crudely and forcefully applied would solve anything.

It is perfectly in character for V to have neither DDoor/Teleport nor Contingency. To argue otherwise is to fundamentally misunderstand who V was.

That V's definition of being "smarter and better" does not match most Readers' definition is not a flaw in the story, but a very purposeful choice by the author. OotS is, among other things, a melodrama. The real drama is in how characters with obvious flaws struggle and grow (or do not grow) when challenged by their own failings.

[zimmerwald1915]

OotS is, among other things, a melodrama. The real drama is in how characters with obvious flaws struggle and grow (or do not grow) when challenged by their own failings.

That is not melodrama. Melodrama, more than anything else, is a style, emphasizing theatricality (read: over-the-topness). What you are describing is tragedy, which can certainly be played melodramatically, but which can also be played realistically or in many other styles.

[Snails]

That is not melodrama. Melodrama, more than anything else, is a style, emphasizing theatricality (read: over-the-topness). What you are describing is tragedy, which can certainly be played melodramatically, but which can also be played realistically or in many other styles.

Fair enough. The stage has been set with mostly melodramatic characters, and there has been no particular effort to make the flaws of those characters subtle or necessarily "realistic" (whatever that means).

V's tale is a tragedy told in the style of melodrama with comedic decorations.

[zimmerwald1915]

"realistic" (whatever that means).

Realism in the sense of the recurrent artistic movement/style.

OOTS, being fantastical, is pretty clearly not realistic.

[Snails]

OOTS, being fantastical, is pretty clearly not realistic.

Yet some Readers seem to have expectations that they think of as "realistic", presumably informed by their experience at the gaming table.

So, this is another reasonable definition of "realistic", one that should not be applied.

[Kish]

I don't think "realistic" is quite the right word for the recurring "the characters aren't optimizing properly Burlew will be hearing from my lawyer about having a wizard not be Batman" complaints.

[Prinygod]

Exactly this.

Younger V's definition of being "smarter and better" is believing that magic crudely and forcefully applied would solve anything.

It is perfectly in character for V to have neither DDoor/Teleport nor Contingency. To argue otherwise is to fundamentally misunderstand who V was.

That V's definition of being "smarter and better" does not match most Readers' definition is not a flaw in the story, but a very purposeful choice by the author. OotS is, among other things, a melodrama. The real drama is in how characters with obvious flaws struggle and grow (or do not grow) when challenged by their own failings.

V believes in the superiority of magical might in general. Please point to them dismissing the more subtle uses of magic. This is a person who would spend spell slots and spell pages on spells like explosive runes, invisibility, dispell magic, suggestion, owl wisdom, (which won't help their spellcasting). I have no issue with them not having contingency, but do take issue with your descriptions of V.

[Goblin_Priest]

Because the laws of the universe were revised since then. (As it happens, I don't think there is anything inherently story-breaking about teleportation magic- it's used all the time in major franchises like Harry Potter or Star Wars (via the hyperdrive)- but that's another discussion.)

I struggle to imagine Conjuration without teleportation, and I haven't read the 3.0 spell lists. But it seems to me that Vaarsuvius initially banned the schools that were most associated with creating minions. This would fit nicely with her character, as invoked by Zz'drti - if I summon an outsider or create an undead to solve my problems, then I didn't really solve my problems, did I?

Yea, same. I really don't remember 3.0 well enough, but even without teleportation in it, I don't think it's a school that many would have barred.

Harry Potter established as soon as it introduced teleportation at all that the site of most of the books' action was the equivalent of dimensionally locked.

Yea, basically every story that introduces such mechanics, like teleportation, or invisibility, then automatically need to give reasons for it never to work again, or rarely work again, if they don't outright just forget about it forever.

[Lacuna Caster]

Yea, basically every story that introduces such mechanics, like teleportation, or invisibility, then automatically need to give reasons for it never to work again, or rarely work again, if they don't outright just forget about it forever.

The equivalent to teleport and wind-walk spells are used frequently in Harry Potter, particularly during the later books. There can be both mouses and mouse-traps, of course, and it's quite fair to imagine that the one would prompt the other, but this idea that instant transport will negate all drama or suspense is mostly nonsense.

[Fyraltari]

The equivalent to teleport and wind-walk spells are used frequently in Harry Potter, particularly during the later books. There can be both mouses and mouse-traps, of course, and it's quite fair to imagine that the one would prompt the other, but this idea that instant transport will negate all drama or suspense is mostly nonsense.

There's stransport and transport. In he case of OOTS, having Teleportation available would eliminate most of the plot.

[Morty]

The equivalent to teleport and wind-walk spells are used frequently in Harry Potter, particularly during the later books. There can be both mouses and mouse-traps, of course, and it's quite fair to imagine that the one would prompt the other, but this idea that instant transport will negate all drama or suspense is mostly nonsense.

Which is presumably why no one has ever said that it'll negate all drama. But it doesn't need to do it in order to be far more trouble than it's worth for this particular story.

[zimmerwald1915]

Which is presumably why no one has ever said that it'll negate all drama. But it doesn't need to do it in order to be far more trouble than it's worth for this particular story.

"No one," you say?

Yea, basically every story that introduces such mechanics, like teleportation, or invisibility, then automatically need to give reasons for it never to work again, or rarely work again, if they don't outright just forget about it forever.

It may very well be that teleportation would undermine much of the plot of The Order of the Stick. I believe Mr. Burlew has said as much (summon banana IX). But people have indeed taken that statement out of context, and possibly conflated it with Mr. Burlew's statements about true resurrection, to make the much more sweeping claim that it is a bad device for all stories in all places and times.

[Jasdoif]

I believe Mr. Burlew has said as much (summon banana IX).

You mean these?

Is there any particular part of the D&D 3e rules that "gets in the way" of your story more consistently than others? I mean, it doesn't really get in the way because it's swept aside the moment it becomes inconvenient, but I hope the question makes sense.

True Resurrection, without a doubt. It's literally impossible for a mortal character to ever be completely out of the story because of its existence. Actually, all forms of resurrection are kind of a pain in the ass, though the other versions have roadblocks you can throw in the path. But because True Resurrection exists, every character death is met with, "Well, they could still come back!" forever.

Also, Teleport. Characters who blip right to their end destination do not for an engaging journey make.

There was also no switch to Conjuration as a barred school, so much as I didn't decide what V's barred school was until later when I needed to eliminate teleportation as a possible plot-killer and forgot about the spiked tentacles. However, if you really need it to all fit together smoothly, just assume that anytime V is seen casting a Conjuration spell in the early part of the strip, he/she is actually casting Shadow Conjuration and everyone around her/him is failing their saving throw.

---

Can you list all the material you created for the 3.5 books that you contributed too? IIRC the acid shark is one, but I don't know of any others specifically.

I'm not going to dig up the books and list off the contents, no. I wrote half of Dungeonscape, half of the Eberron Explorer's Handbook, about 15 monsters for Monster Manual III, and a dozen illusion spells for Dragon Magazine that got picked up into the Spell Compendium.

(I bring this one up because Explorer's Handbook has a little section on "ways for the DM to ensure that the teleport spell does not allow player characters to bypass an adventure"; the relevance thereof is an exercise left to the reader)

---

Spoiler: Don't Split the Party Commentary

Show

While there's no direct mention of teleportation that I saw in my quick review, I will note that the book's original idea was exploring "What would happen if Roy suddenly left?" That required keeping Roy dead long enough to explore the ramifications, and the method chose for that was keeping Roy's body separated from the person who could cast raise dead and resurrection....Which, naturally, teleportation would negate in short order.

[Snails]

Yea, basically every story that introduces such mechanics, like teleportation, or invisibility, then automatically need to give reasons for it never to work again, or rarely work again, if they don't outright just forget about it forever.

Now that you mention it, it has been established that Xykon is surprisingly incapable of dealing with Invisibility, but it was handled in a manner such that he might not realize from his encounter with V how dangerous a weakness that could be.

I would bet a large pile of Quatloos that facet will make a significant appearance in the final showdown, even if it is more likely to save the skin of a beloved PC rather than actually decide the result.

[zimmerwald1915]

Now that you mention it, it has been established that Xykon is surprisingly incapable of dealing with Invisibility

It established no such thing. "Right now, power takes the form of a +8 racial bonus to Listen checks."

Xykon may not have true seeing, mind, but that is by no means the only way to detect an invisible character. Nor is detecting the character necessary to neutralize the threat they pose - you can, for example, fill a room with enough fire to kill everything besides your fire-immune self.

[Peelee]

It established no such thing. "Right now, power takes the form of a +8 racial bonus to Listen checks."

And power for V could have taken the form of a 3rd level Fly spell, if they'd still had it.

[woweedd]

The equivalent to teleport and wind-walk spells are used frequently in Harry Potter, particularly during the later books. There can be both mouses and mouse-traps, of course, and it's quite fair to imagine that the one would prompt the other, but this idea that instant transport will negate all drama or suspense is mostly nonsense.

As has been noted:

Harry Potter established as soon as it introduced teleportation at all that the site of most of the books' action was the equivalent of dimensionally locked.

Also, i'd note that Harry Potter, with one exception in the last book, unlike OOTS, is not a journey narrative. Most of the plot centers around Hogwarts, and excursions outside are rare, so Apportion is used to get to them. OOTS, on the other hand, is a story heavily centered around the travel from Gate to Gate, and the trouble our protagonists run into in the process. in most cases, and, thus, the protagonists having the ability to skip the travel time would drastically affect the plot. Not to mention, they literally centered a whole book around the main characters being unable to contact each other.

[Rack]

Counterpoint: V does have a Contingency set up but it hasn’t triggered yet. Contingency is a great way to make a dramatic turnaround for the players ONCE. After that it potentially kills drama as soon as V gets a chance to refresh it because every bad situation needs to show a contingency being fired before people take it seriously. V will have a contingency fire right near the end of the story.

[Snails]

It established no such thing. "Right now, power takes the form of a +8 racial bonus to Listen checks."

Xykon may not have true seeing, mind, but that is by no means the only way to detect an invisible character. Nor is detecting the character necessary to neutralize the threat they pose - you can, for example, fill a room with enough fire to kill everything besides your fire-immune self.

Obviously, Xykon is not completely incapable, because he has a sufficient fig leaf of mitigation strategies that he is not absurdly stupid for choosing not to learn his lesson. That is, in fact, a facet of my point.

With a significant bit of luck added in, your "no such thing" allowed a sequence of events that resulted in both Durkon and V escaping. If only Xykon's "no such thing" sucked a bit less, that would be two less powerful characters to show up at the finale. That is likely to matter.

Applying Bardic (meta) Knowledge, at the end of the day, "no such thing" will probably help save the world. Which makes "no such thing" different from "Snails is a genius and 100% right here, as usual" in no way that matters.

[Snails]

Also, i'd note that Harry Potter, with one exception in the last book, unlike OOTS, is not a journey narrative. Most of the plot centers around Hogwarts, and excursions outside are rare, so Apportion is used to get to them. OOTS, on the other hand, is a story heavily centered around the travel from Gate to Gate, and the trouble our protagonists run into in the process. in most cases, and, thus, the protagonists having the ability to skip the travel time would drastically affect the plot. Not to mention, they literally centered a whole book around the main characters being unable to contact each other.

As a practical matter, if not for the travel adventuring, it could be a series of dungeon races, where the Order is trying to find the Gate before some opposing team.

But that gets old quickly, and has the significant downside to the author of not having organic reasons to show off his campaign world.

[Lord Torath]

Does the fact I can never spell restaraunt right on the first try say something about me then?

Heh. Yeah, that's because it's restaurant, not restaraunt. You want to rant about the lack of rest you got at the restaurant.

[Kantaki]

With a significant bit of luck added in, your "no such thing" allowed a sequence of events that resulted in both Durkon and V escaping. If only Xykon's "no such thing" sucked a bit less, that would be two less powerful characters to show up at the finale. That is likely to matter.

Durkon?
I don't recall him being present for that sequence.
Do you mean O-Chul?
I mean, mixing them up is understandable- they do look almost the same after all.
Bald, bearded, wear armor, use a melee weapon...
Yup. Basically the same character.

Also, they didn't escape because X wasn't prepared for invisibility*.
If the Great Beast in Shadows hadn't surprised everyone with the „Escape”-trick V and O-Chul would literally have eaten his Meteor Swarm.

*Part of that was V being not sufficiently prepared though.

[Mightymosy]

"No one," you say?


It may very well be that teleportation would undermine much of the plot of The Order of the Stick. I believe Mr. Burlew has said as much (summon banana IX). But people have indeed taken that statement out of context, and possibly conflated it with Mr. Burlew's statements about true resurrection, to make the much more sweeping claim that it is a bad device for all stories in all places and times.

Actually, I will second this as well.

I wouldn't go so far as to say Teleportation downright ruins any story it is in completely, but it has a plot destroying power that needs to be looked at carefully.

In fact, HP is a good example of this as well. Of course, I read HP mainly with the heart, not with the brain. I don't think it is to be disected with pedantic thoughts, otherwise it would surely fall apart. Quickly.

As Kish said, all important places were immediately warded against Teleportation, just so that the story doesn't fall apart IMMEDIATELY.
HP experts may voice their opinion, but I remember thinking a couple times "Well, wouldn't it be better to Teleport now?" when I read the books.

For example, when they fly and use the Harry doppelgangers. Why don't they teleport again?
Also, why did no one build a room that is ONLY accessible by Teleport? Would be a good idea to hide something from curious eyes, wouldn't you think? Like, I don't know, a Horkrux, maybe?

My point is the following: If a society has access to Teleport-at-will, and you honestly try to follow that through, a lot of things would be really different.

Why have any mondane transportation left, at all?
For example, the Magic train station in London. Why risk having Muggles run through that wall by accident? When you can just have the teachers collect all the children with Teleport when semesters start?
Why ride on brooms you can fall down from?

I enjoyed HP. Really. And I'll admit that Rowling did an actual nice job patching the holes Teleportation magic tends to cause. But I wouldn't bet on it holding up logically in all cases (but again, not an HP expert).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Mightymosy, let me preface that I understand that you are not intending to criticise HP for its handling of the issue, that you see how it works, but you did ask questions about canon, and I can't not answer them.

For example, when they fly and use the Harry doppelgangers. Why don't they teleport again?

At the time, the MoM and Voldemort were not quite merged together. The safe places of the order where still being allowed and empowered by the MoM, and they needed to stay on the right side of the law. If Harry had aparated out of his uncle's house, he would have broken the law, which would have had immediate consequences (as it was, the MoM was taken not long after, but while not surprising, the Order was still working to delay and avoid it).

(One of Voldemort's Imperius'ed MoM employees had been the one to shut down magical transportation out of Harry's uncle's house, but at the time that was all Voldemort was able to do)

Also, why did no one build a room that is ONLY accessible by Teleport? Would be a good idea to hide something from curious eyes, wouldn't you think? Like, I don't know, a Horkrux, maybe?

I'm guessing you are thinking "they can't teleport into it if they haven't been there"? I mean, it makes logical sense, but unfortunately, there are plenty of examples of teleporting to a location you know of even if you haven't been there, and indeed the apparition test involves teleporting somewhere you haven't been based on the description of the examiner, IIRC. If Voldemort had used such a trick, all it would take is for Dumbledore to hear about it to be able to apparate into the place.

In general, security through obscurity is the weakest form of security anyway.

Why have any mondane transportation left, at all?

HP answers that by showing that apparition is limited by your abilities as a wizard, dangerous, less than confortable and cannot take the kids. It's the motorbike vs car debate, sort of.

(also, it takes significant amount of dark magic to make you fall from a broom - they are enchanted to keep you on, canonically, IIRC)

Grey Wolf

[Mightymosy]

Mightymosy, let me preface that I understand that you are not intending to criticise HP for its handling of the issue, that you see how it works, but you did ask questions about canon, and I can't not answer them.
Grey Wolf

You're welcome. Interesting details are always interesting.

At the time, the MoM and Voldemort were not quite merged together. The safe places of the order where still being allowed and empowered by the MoM, and they needed to stay on the right side of the law. If Harry had aparated out of his uncle's house, he would have broken the law, which would have had immediate consequences (as it was, the MoM was taken not long after, but while not surprising, the Order was still working to delay and avoid it).

(One of Voldemort's Imperius'ed MoM employees had been the one to shut down magical transportation out of Harry's uncle's house, but at the time that was all Voldemort was able to do)
Grey Wolf

MoM = Ministery of Magic, and not mother, I presume?

I am talking about the sequence where Harry's owl eventually gets murdered on flight.
The Phoenix Order people collect Harry and friends from some place, drink doppelganger juice (don't know the English name) and all fly with their brooms to some destination, in different groups. I think Hedwig and maybe some Order person is killed on that flight, if I remember correctly.

If you say that teleporting out of HP's uncle's house is forbidden, fine. Walk out, walk a mile, then teleport from a mile away or something.

Why risk going the whole distance on brooms? Maybe brooms take some dark magic to shoot people off from, but the Deatheaters DO pack some lots of dark magic!

Also, why not port away as soon as the Deatheaters fire at your squad?
Better TRY to port to safety than die, is my idea of life.

I'm guessing you are thinking "they can't teleport into it if they haven't been there"? I mean, it makes logical sense, but unfortunately, there are plenty of examples of teleporting to a location you know of even if you haven't been there, and indeed the apparition test involves teleporting somewhere you haven't been based on the description of the examiner, IIRC. If Voldemort had used such a trick, all it would take is for Dumbledore to hear about it to be able to apparate into the place.

In general, security through obscurity is the weakest form of security anyway.
Grey Wolf

1. I meant it as a safety against muggles first and foremost. Why have a train - any train, even magical - lead to Hogwarts when you can make it accessible through teleport ONLY, i.e. sealed under ground?
Or pocket dimension, place in the clouds, Atlantis redux, you name it...

2. Yes, secrecy alone is not a good measure to hide something, but why NOT use it?
Why is there an entrance to the horkrux cave? The one at the coast where DD eventually gets poisoned.
I mean, yes, DD could port there if he KNEW there was a room, but Vm could create some cave somewhere on earth, without entrance, and never tell anyone it even exists.
And he could STILL install all the other safety measures there.

YES, you could then tell a story where Wizards ALSO have magical ultrasound to find subterrain caves with, and et cetera et cetera, but that's what I was talking about: Having teleport-at-will opens up holes. Holes you have to carefully consider as an author if you want them available in your story.

Again, I don't fault Rowling. Teleport is a magic staple, it makes sense having it in your magic story (aimed primarily at kinds anyway who give more leeway to stuff like that, I think). And it's okay if you choose to pay the price that things aren't 100% logical in your story. What I am saying is that there IS a price.

HP answers that by showing that apparition is limited by your abilities as a wizard, dangerous, less than confortable and cannot take the kids. It's the motorbike vs car debate, sort of.
Grey Wolf

Really? I think I remember DD taking Harry with him 'porting, am I wrong?

Also, I remember people SAY it can be dangerous - but then again, they do it all the time anyway, so I think that argument is not carrying much weight in the books.

Teleporter accidents = 0.0
;-)

(also, it takes significant amount of dark magic to make you fall from a broom - they are enchanted to keep you on, canonically, IIRC)

Grey Wolf

Nice to know! I've always wondered, especially when watchin the Quidditch in the movies. Makes sense.