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    For the new readers, El Goonish Shive is a long-running plot-and-character-driven action-dramedy with elements of teen life, magical kung fu, gender-switching and all-around silly stuff happening. The art has also undergone a massive improvement since the beginning, so don't be too off put by the dramatic difference in quality at the start. It also shifts between "grey-scale" and colour.

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    El Goonish Shive (2009)
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    El Goonish Shive (2011-2012)
    El Goonish Shive (2013 -2014)
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    El Goonish Shive II - I stand by my ridiculous comic
    El Goonish ShIVe - Dammit Dan, Stop Teasing Us
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    ...yeah, I'm basically gonna use you as my example to explain how White, as a color of magic, can represent pure evil. =P
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Should add a link to the last thread too.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Looking forward to seeing which questions were picked for the FAQ.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    I wonder how much Susan actually uses her magic. I mean, she seems to have the Fairy Summon spell up often, but maybe that doesn't use too much when it's actually active.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    *Chuckles* The lawyer playing a wizard. Yep, Dan knows DnD.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I wonder how much Susan actually uses her magic. I mean, she seems to have the Fairy Summon spell up often, but maybe that doesn't use too much when it's actually active.
    Sometimes, these characters confuse me. If I had magic, I'd literally use it all the time. Yet, they all seem so hesitant to use it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    Sometimes, these characters confuse me. If I had magic, I'd literally use it all the time. Yet, they all seem so hesitant to use it.
    Well Susan's magic kind of came with emotional baggage attached. There is also the fact that they aren't suppose to openly use their magic in public to keep how easy it is to get magic a secret.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizard Lord View Post
    Well Susan's magic kind of came with emotional baggage attached. There is also the fact that they aren't suppose to openly use their magic in public to keep how easy it is to get magic a secret.
    Clearly, she's not good at compartmentalizing her mind. I'd have no trouble using magic regardless of how I got it. Even if the event was horrible and traumatic, I'd still consider the magic part a silver lining.

    And sure, it can't be used in public, but I can still use it at home. My apartment would be magic central.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    Sometimes, these characters confuse me. If I had magic, I'd literally use it all the time. Yet, they all seem so hesitant to use it.
    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    Clearly, she's not good at compartmentalizing her mind. I'd have no trouble using magic regardless of how I got it. Even if the event was horrible and traumatic, I'd still consider the magic part a silver lining.

    And sure, it can't be used in public, but I can still use it at home. My apartment would be magic central.
    And agreed. It wouldn't just be using the spell as written either. I'd actively try to push the boundaries of each spell. If the spellbook is too verbose or too little, then I will figure it out through experimentation.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Agreed



    And agreed. It wouldn't just be using the spell as written either. I'd actively try to push the boundaries of each spell. If the spellbook is too verbose or too little, then I will figure it out through experimentation.
    Yup. I never understand when these characters run into problems because they don't know how their magic works. I'd have that s*** figured out. I'd want to know exactly how my spells work and how far I can push them.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    I mean... Everybody keeps forgetting to RTFM.

    If your super-powers literally comes with a manual that explains how they work... At least skim the freaking thing.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    This is true- Ralph Hinkley's problem was he kept losing the super suit's manual, but EGS spellbooks are probably easier to find (and harder to lose).
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Isn't forgetting to read the manual only Elliot's problem? I think I remember Ellen, Nanase and Susan being good at this.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Susan is also surprisingly bad at this.


    Is it possible for Grace's heightened perception to be "purely visual" when she can tell the dice sides without looking at them, and also non-contact frisk Sam through a closed door? I assume Dan means they work as purely passive sensors, but maybe I'm misremembering how those scenes worked.

    Or I guess whatever way she is passively getting the data if it is being processed as visual information it counts as visual?
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Isn't forgetting to read the manual only Elliot's problem? I think I remember Ellen, Nanase and Susan being good at this.
    He was the big one, but the only person who has never been stated as having a problem keeping up with the spellbook has been Nanase.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    He was the big one, but the only person who has never been stated as having a problem keeping up with the spellbook has been Nanase.
    Yes, but it has also been explained as an issue with the language of the book. It seems to be a cross between legalese and over-detailed minutia. There are some people who read the terms and conditions (heck, one made the news this week), but they aren't common. Most people just figure "eh, I'm sure I can figure it out on my own", and they can figure out enough that the feel they don't need to refer to the manual... and thus, a lot of other things are missed.

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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Yes, but it has also been explained as an issue with the language of the book. It seems to be a cross between legalese and over-detailed minutia. There are some people who read the terms and conditions (heck, one made the news this week), but they aren't common. Most people just figure "eh, I'm sure I can figure it out on my own", and they can figure out enough that the feel they don't need to refer to the manual... and thus, a lot of other things are missed.

    Grey Wolf
    Yeah, except that they never bothered with that " figuring it out" part and just kinda ignored the fact that they had magic. And no matter how confusing the descriptions are, they should still, at least, skim over their books to see when they get new spells, yet they never did that, either.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    The only person who has never forgotten to check her spellbook is Ellen.

    Susan put it off because she assumed she'd just know when she got new spells, Elliot doesn't even try, and even Nanase was behind on it as of "Playing With Dolls"(She hadn't realized that her Fairy Doll spell had been upgraded so that she could go for outfits other than the bodysuit until Tedd explained it.)

    Elliot is literally the only one who consistently has trouble figuring out his spells. They're hard to understand, but everyone else can figure it out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    Yeah, except that they never bothered with that " figuring it out" part and just kinda ignored the fact that they had magic.
    No, they did not. They all had spells, which they used regularly. They just weren't aware of variations of those spells and in Susan's case, new ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    And no matter how confusing the descriptions are, they should still, at least, skim over their books to see when they get new spells, yet they never did that, either.
    How often do you skim the terms and conditions to see if they have added a new clause?

    You seem to be assuming that each spell gets its own indexed chapter or something. I don't see a reason to assume that, or that it is obvious enough that there is new spells that a simple skim will discover it.

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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    I'd like to point out that the spell-books gain and loose pages(as in, literally change the number of physical pages in the book) as ones spells improve and change and that the spell books glow when you level up or get a new spell.

    Checking on the book to see if ti changed size every couple of day or after a particularly magic heavy day should be more than enough to know if something changed. Then you check the last pages to see if some stuff has been added. If no new spells, skim through the old ones to see the upgrades.

    And Grey_Wolf?

    Superpowers are not a computer.

    They are not a microwave.

    they are not a TV.

    If I have gained the power of unaided flight. And this power comes with a manual... It would be stupid of me not to read the manual in order to get the greatest possible understanding of how my powers of flight work before practice: If I don't know how to turn or accelerate, then I could get injured.

    If I discover that I can emit streams of fire from my fingertips, I should read the manual to make sure I know what causes it less I accidentally burn down a building.

    If Mutant Super Powers came with a manual, you'd better believe that ol' Charley X would be demanding that his students read and memorize said manuals.

    And for what feels like the hundredth time: Everyone in-universe states that Elliot was being stupid for not making the effort to keep up with his spellbook.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I'd like to point out that the spell-books gain and loose pages(as in, literally change the number of physical pages in the book) as ones spells improve and change and that the spell books glow when you level up or get a new spell.

    Checking on the book to see if ti changed size every couple of day or after a particularly magic heavy day should be more than enough to know if something changed. Then you check the last pages to see if some stuff has been added. If no new spells, skim through the old ones to see the upgrades.
    And after ten of those times when you were confronted with unintelligible minutia that didn't change anything except minor, minor improvements (oh, wow, twenty pages on how to select the exact pattern of polka dots I can now select for my hair colour change! Oh, and an further 35 pages on how to change individual hairs of my back! Wow, that was productive!), most people would give up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    And Grey_Wolf?

    Superpowers are not a computer.

    They are not a microwave.

    they are not a TV.

    If I have gained the power of unaided flight. And this power comes with a manual... It would be stupid of me not to read the manual in order to get the greatest possible understanding of how my powers of flight work before practice: If I don't know how to turn or accelerate, then I could get injured.

    If I discover that I can emit streams of fire from my fingertips, I should read the manual to make sure I know what causes it less I accidentally burn down a building.

    If Mutant Super Powers came with a manual, you'd better believe that ol' Charley X would be demanding that his students read and memorize said manuals.
    Good for you. But you are not the universal measure of mankind. Most people that after getting the spell can fly without reading all that, and have been fine, will continue to fly the way they did the first time. If they have an issue they want improved, they might -MIGHT- check, then be confronted with unintelligible minutia, and give up.

    Yes, they aren't computers. Computers are significantly more useful, powerful and dangerous. And yet 99% of people with computers don't know how to fully use them. They just use them to read their mail and check websites.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    And for what feels like the hundredth time: Everyone in-universe states that Elliot was being stupid for not making the effort to keep up with his spellbook.
    And for what feels like a hundredth time: Elliot had a specific problem of unwanted transformations that would have been helped by him reading the manual. Susan didn't have a problem, wasn't intending to gain spells, and made reasonable if incorrect assumptions about the damn thing. There is nothing universally stupid about not keeping up with the manual if you already have the powers that you want.

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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, they did not. They all had spells, which they used regularly. They just weren't aware of variations of those spells and in Susan's case, new ones.



    How often do you skim the terms and conditions to see if they have added a new clause?

    You seem to be assuming that each spell gets its own indexed chapter or something. I don't see a reason to assume that, or that it is obvious enough that there is new spells that a simple skim will discover it.

    Grey Wolf
    A better question is how much do I try and push the functionality of something new? Which is complicated because I don't want to break my new thing. Which doesn't apply to magic. I don't have a problem with the characters struggling with the spellbooks. I can't comprehend why they don't figure out stuff anyways just by playing with their magic. Using it actively makes you better at it. And because the spells reflect who you are, you'll likely enjoy the spells in some way as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    A better question is how much do I try and push the functionality of something new? Which is complicated because I don't want to break my new thing. Which doesn't apply to magic. I don't have a problem with the characters struggling with the spellbooks. I can't comprehend why they don't figure out stuff anyways just by playing with their magic. Using it actively makes you better at it. And because the spells reflect who you are, you'll likely enjoy the spells in some way as well.
    It might be explained pretty easily: everyone has finite ammount of time to do things. If you do one thing, you have less time for other things. So they pursue some other interests instead of magic. I know it sounds kind of absurd for us, but for most of the cast magic is just something that is there and pretty much only Sarah and Tedd express any particular interest in studying it.

    Even if magic is not widespread, they themselves have constant access to it and the novelty wears of pretty quickly as with anything else. Fairly recently I got to experience that with the white nights in the far north - for a few first days it was something amazing, but later on it was just "meh, I sleep through it anyway".
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    It doesn't seem that unrealistic to me that they would be less than diligent with their self-improvement or manual reading. Especially when they need to hide their magic. The manual is mostly useless, except for warning people about new spells and a vague idea about what it does. Sure they could do testing, but with the limits of secrecy and all they probably can't get more than a general idea. Yes, they should exercise their magic and cardiovascular systems regularly, but who does that? Not most people in America!

    Also realistically (and in comic!) the response would not be uniform. Some people would not check their spell book. Some people would check it more regularly. Some people would just try to live a normal life despite having vampire slaying powers (a reasonable choice actually), while some people would establish a magical work out routine to try and farm for new spells. We've seen these responses in the comic.

    P.S. I'm not sure if Susan really had all the details explained to her when she got magic.
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    This one was pretty good. Both Diane and Sarah took offense to (almost) the exact same comment, even if the context was opposite.

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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    It's a little unclear if the latest comic means that the act of changing your name is what would cause you to get new spells, or if the underlying desire that leads to changing your name also happens to affect new spells.

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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Is it? I thought it was unambiguously the latter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pablo360 View Post
    It's a little unclear if the latest comic means that the act of changing your name is what would cause you to get new spells, or if the underlying desire that leads to changing your name also happens to affect new spells.
    Based on "If someone wants a spell so badly that..." [emphasis added], I would reckon it's the underlying desire. While the act of changing the name is an example of that desire, I think the Q&A is saying that such an extreme act would reflect a desire extreme enough to shape the sort of spells one would get.

    However, I can see it having a cyclical effect or a feedback loop. If you do change your name, your actions and identity are probably aligning more strongly with said name and what it reflects. The very act of using that name reinforces the underlying desire. Thus, more likely to get the spells. Not because of changing your name, but because the act reinforces and perhaps strengthen the desire that yields the spell.

    I think it could be similar with how Nanase was getting more hiding spells, during a time when her actions were reflecting her desire to hide. The actions weren't causing the desire, but they did sorta reinforce it.

    On a personal note, this made me think of how I took a new name at one point in my life. I go by both in different settings, mainly since it's hard to get family to start calling you by something new and I was professionally established under the old name, but the use of the new one has certain connotations and emotional reinforcement with it, which helps reinforce and remind me the reasons associated with taking the new name. I can see a similar relationship with how the metaphysics of receiving spells works in EGS.
    Last edited by JeenLeen; 2019-04-10 at 02:24 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Vinyadan's Avatar

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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    To what shall I compare this page? I'll unfavourably compare this page to the video for Uptown Girl.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    I think it's almost 100% certain whoever the target is not someone cliche dude-jerks like those would want to hit on (e.g., not a non-trans woman), so I think the main point of speculation is who it is. (Though I guess it being a modified-Ashley and her wrecking transformative vengeance is an option. Could be Grace, but seems unlikely as she'd probably respond in a non-hostile way.)

    Though the semi-goth arm-sleeve does have the look of Ashley or her friend. I'd be surprised if Ashley's friend's spell was to transform like that, though.

    My guesses
    1) Tedd as a woman
    2) Elliot transformed (mix of goth and party form?)
    3) Pandora manifested corporeally
    4) a new character who is some sort of magic-user

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