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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    There's no way in hell that Ashley is ending the party storyline without being transformed at least once.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Good news, bad news, Liz:

    Good: The odds of you meeting an actual vampire have significantly dropped recently.

    Bad: They’re still higher than you think.
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    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    I like the way this is going. Ashley having to struggle with the abuse potential of her (admittedly weak) eventual powers is a nice change from the perfectly-ethical way Tedd and others have been portrayed in more recent comics.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    I like the way this is going. Ashley having to struggle with the abuse potential of her (admittedly weak) eventual powers is a nice change from the perfectly-ethical way Tedd and others have been portrayed in more recent comics.
    Well, Tedd and (to a lesser extent) Nanase used to abuse magic, so the change works as a way of showing maturity and responsibility. Elliot also makes sense because he's just so damn pure, and that is played up as an integral part of his character. As far as the others are concerned, though, I do have to agree that their behavior is just a little too good to be fully believable.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    I like the way this is going. Ashley having to struggle with the abuse potential of her (admittedly weak) eventual powers is a nice change from the perfectly-ethical way Tedd and others have been portrayed in more recent comics.
    She isn't though. She's being bad for being tempted to transform people but isn't actually planning on transforming anyone. It's actually kinda stupid. People can have desires and you don't need to be perfect all the time.

    Also I feel the perfectly ethical behavior is more a matter of secrecy then anything. That and having parents who wouldn't just allow rampant magic abuse.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    I do not think Ashley's psychological hangups about her fantasies are meant to imply that she is actually going to "struggle with temptation" to do anything wrong.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    It is more that the strip is even showing her having the temptation that I'm referring to. I can't recall anybody having much of that since Tedd got rid of the X-ray function on his glasses.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    It is more that the strip is even showing her having the temptation that I'm referring to. I can't recall anybody having much of that since Tedd got rid of the X-ray function on his glasses.
    No, that's still been around. It's just the comic moves so slowly it's been a while since we've seen it. But Elliot had sexy dreams, Susan had fantasies about Cat/Rhonda, and Sarah had power fantasies I believe. Oh, and I vaguely remember either Justin or his boyfriend having fantasies about each other?
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    You mean this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    You mean this?
    Yeah.
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  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    She isn't though. She's being bad for being tempted to transform people but isn't actually planning on transforming anyone. It's actually kinda stupid. People can have desires and you don't need to be perfect all the time.

    Also, I feel the perfectly ethical behavior is more a matter of secrecy then anything. That and having parents who wouldn't just allow rampant magic abuse.
    It's noted that Tedd has been especially responsible with his technology "lately" as opposed to back at the beginning where he seriously considered using the TF gun to turn Tony into a girl for bullying Tedd and was actually working on modifying the gun with intent to do it.

    Some of that was probably Magus messing with his emotions, but it's noted more than once in the comic and in the commentary that Tedd was a perverted jerk in the early days of the comics but developed out of it.

    As for Ashley, I'd make a note that it's not so much that Ashley's "being" bad as much as that now that she knows that it'll actually be possible for her to act out those fantasies if she wanted to, that she's evil for having those thoughts.

    The same way that Elliot felt he was evil for having a dirty dream about someone who wasn't his girlfriend at the time.

    Ashley's "thing" is that she's incredibly nice and well-meaning, to the point of being unerving to more cynical characters like Nanase, which is among other things one of the reasons why she's perfect for "born in a boyscout uniform" Elliot.

    Remember her freaking out that she was a day late on returning a library book becuase someone might have wanted or needed the book and couldn't use it becuase of her? It's more of the same.

    She's just being an axious dork. I can relate.


    ...I'm wondering if she's not gonna have a heart to heart with Tedd at some point. We know that if she wants to develop her magic she'll be working with Tedd, so they'll need to know each other better anyway for Ashley to get comfortable with what happens in Tedd's lab(Such as the casual self-transformation.)

    Tedd explaining how he used to be and that he grew out of it and that Ashley has the advantage of genuinly being much nicer than he was back then would be nice.
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Tedd being considered a pervert, according to commentary, was played up to eleven because Dan was insecure about transformations being sexy, and so the characters view was adapted to what he considered the communis opinio.

    Ashley was pretty much the opposite -- I don't think her fetish was ever critiqued by anyone, although she also had no power to put it into reality.

    Tedd wanted to turn Tony into a woman, but even Elliot was OK with that, once he found out that it was meant to be temporary -- he even wanted it on film. Fun times ensue, once he is the one temporarily turned into a woman...

    In general, the original cast had a lot more contrast going on on an interpersonal level: everyone was bashing Ted's sexual preferences, Susan was a jerk and a woman supremacist, Sarah hated Ted and was hopelessly in love with Elliot, Elliot was an action hero, Justin was nagging Nanase about her sexuality, Ellen was an evil twin, Greg performed silly experiments on Elliot, and so on -- starting with the Get Sarah in a Bikini Fund.

    EDIT: also, about Ted being a jerk:

    Tedd’s a bit of a jerk early on, mostly because I looked at popular culture at the time and thought to myself “THIS is what people will find amusing.”
    Last edited by Vinyadan; 2019-06-09 at 07:03 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Yeah. That's the Doyalist reason.

    But Dan has already incorporated odd behaviors from early in the comic into the story--pointing out that Tedd's insecurity about his occasionally liking to be a girl(Or, as we know it now, Tedd's gender fluidity) would have meant that Elliot's freakout at Tedd being a girl way back when probably hurt Tedd a lot.

    Tedd learning of Ashley's concerns and assuring her that she'll be fine becuase he used to be horribly irresponsible with his stuff(to the point of actually taking steps to a premeditated revenge transformation, not the impulsive stuff Ashletfantasizes about) and was kind of a perverted jerk but grew out of it.

    "You'll be fine."
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  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Honestly I think Ashley's worries are similar to Elliot worrying about being attracted to women he was turning into. That is, it's an example of Ashley being unrealistically pure/perfect rather than an exception to the rule.

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissou View Post
    Honestly I think Ashley's worries are similar to Elliot worrying about being attracted to women he was turning into. That is, it's an example of Ashley being unrealistically pure/perfect rather than an exception to the rule.
    Remember the time Elliot tried to fantasise about some girls (I cannot find the strip in question)? He simply could not feel guilty about objectifying them. Let's face it: Elliot and Ashley are very much like each other.

    edit: Found it!
    Last edited by Radar; 2019-06-10 at 06:14 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    I like Grace's history textbook.
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  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    The commentary on this page represents one of the few things about Dan that I find legitimately annoying: he has absolutely no confidence in his own writing and desperately tries to explain away anything that might remotely imply that his characters are not perfect people. It completely misses the entire point. I don't want good people; I want good characters. Not only is there a difference, but they often work on opposition. A character's flaws are exactly what makes them good. Just look at My Hero Academia, as an example. After his development in season three, Bakugo has firmly become the most popular character in the show, yet he's still, objectively, a terrible person. The reason people love him is because of his depth and realism. He's flawed, but he has understandable reasons for those flaws. This doesn't excuse his actions, but it does explain them. We understand Bakugo on a deeper, more psychological level than we did before, and that's why he's a great character.

    Now, you may say it's unfair to compare El Goonish Shive with My Hero Academia of all things, but I'm not doing this to say that Aca is better (I wouldn't waste my time on something so self evident). No, I'm making this comparison to show what Dan (and all character writers) should strive towards. If Dan can learn from Aca's example and make his characters realistically flawed (and then let his writing stand for itself), this comic could be one of the best out there.

    Another good point of comparison, and one more relevant to EGS, is the webcomic Sister Claire. It, like Aca, has flawed characters. No one is perfect, and even the central characters have significant issues. This one is one of the best comics out there, due almost entirely to the amazing character writing. I look to Claire as an example of what EGS could be if Dan were more confident in himself.
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  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    I think Liz just invited herself to the party.
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  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Okaaaaay I don't see why Liz is expecting this party to have "Party Crashers". Even if she knows Elliot is Cheerledra (Not really that hard for her to guess) it's not like Elliot gets attacked everywhere he goes. Is this just because the last date Elliot and Ashley went on they had the whole "Evil immortal" event occur? I can't really parse what is going through Liz's head atm.
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  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Please, let this not be about "you kissed someone on her cheek once"... But I definitely would understand it if Nicotine were worried about Elliot magically turning into a belligerent drunk.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    Okaaaaay I don't see why Liz is expecting this party to have "Party Crashers". Even if she knows Elliot is Cheerledra (Not really that hard for her to guess) it's not like Elliot gets attacked everywhere he goes. Is this just because the last date Elliot and Ashley went on they had the whole "Evil immortal" event occur? I can't really parse what is going through Liz's head atm.
    Superheroes and superheroes' loved ones are attacked all the time. That's the entire reason for secret identities.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    Okaaaaay I don't see why Liz is expecting this party to have "Party Crashers". Even if she knows Elliot is Cheerledra (Not really that hard for her to guess) it's not like Elliot gets attacked everywhere he goes. Is this just because the last date Elliot and Ashley went on they had the whole "Evil immortal" event occur? I can't really parse what is going through Liz's head atm.
    Well, so far both dates between Ashley and Elliot have been crashed by supernatural beings, so its not that odd of a thing to be worried about. Given the state Ahsley has been in since the last date I totally get why she's worried, even if taking it out on Elliot might not be the most mature thing to do.
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  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randuir View Post
    Well, so far both dates between Ashley and Elliot have been crashed by supernatural beings.
    They had a completly uneventful date between two pages of this storyline.
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  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    They had a completly uneventful date between two pages of this storyline.
    Yeah, but that was off panel and they are clearly planning an on panel party this time.
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  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Observation paraphrased from tv tropes:

    Elliot/Ellen and Tedd/Tess are usually a couple in universes where their sexual identities and sexual orientations are compatible.

    This doesn't apply in the main comic universe, but ignoring Sarah, who Elliot was never actually attracted to, all of the genuine love interests of main Elliot and Ellen have resembled Tedd.

    Nanase is Tedd's first cousin and they do in fact bear a strong physical resemblance to each other, at least when Tedd is female.

    Ashley, Elliot's current girlfriend, is close enough to "girl Tedd" that when Elliot flashes back to the half-remembered sexy dream he had about Girl-Tedd, he automatically substitutes Ashley in th flashback and assumes that the dream was about her all along. In addition, Ashley has the same... Interests, as Tedd(transformations, genderbending, and women with large breasts.)

    Conclusion: Grace isn't the only one that's Teddsexual.
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  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Or Elliot likes East-Asian features.
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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Liz's logic is pretty watertight, even if it reaches a (slightly) incorrect conclusion.

    Point (A): Ashley was clearly traumatized after that date with Eliot, and is now keeping a secret. Liz knows this because Ashley is a terrible liar.

    Point (B): Eliot did not and would not mistreat Ashley; enough different people have assured Liz of this that she accepts it as a working hypothesis.

    Point (C): Ashley hates keeping secrets (because she sucks at it) but always keeps promises. Ergo, she is keeping someone else's secret.
    Subpoint (C1): Eliot has a secret superhero identity. Everyone knows this by now, but they go through the motion of pretending otherwise.
    Subpoint (C2): Bad guys attack superheroes unexpectedly, because they do. Any superhero who acts shocked at this turn of events, is a liar or an idiot.
    Addendum (C2.a): Eliot is no better a liar than Ashley, but is an idiot.

    Conclusion (D): By Occam's Razor, the secret Ashley will not tell Liz, the secret Eliot thinks no one knows, and the source of Ashley's trauma, can be tentatively assumed to be one and the same: someone attacked Cheerledra, and Ashley was caught in the crossfire.

    Conclusion (E, and final): IT WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN OR HEADS WILL ROLL, starting with Eliot's.

    I mean, she's close.

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    When you think about it, telling someone they’re a bad liar is kind of a compliment. Practice makes perfect and all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Observation paraphrased from tv tropes:

    Elliot/Ellen and Tedd/Tess are usually a couple in universes where their sexual identities and sexual orientations are compatible.

    This doesn't apply in the main comic universe, but ignoring Sarah, who Elliot was never actually attracted to, all of the genuine love interests of main Elliot and Ellen have resembled Tedd.

    Nanase is Tedd's first cousin and they do in fact bear a strong physical resemblance to each other, at least when Tedd is female.

    Ashley, Elliot's current girlfriend, is close enough to "girl Tedd" that when Elliot flashes back to the half-remembered sexy dream he had about Girl-Tedd, he automatically substitutes Ashley in th flashback and assumes that the dream was about her all along. In addition, Ashley has the same... Interests, as Tedd(transformations, genderbending, and women with large breasts.)

    Conclusion: Grace isn't the only one that's Teddsexual.
    What about Susan?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    is it common knowledge that Tedd's dad is FBI?

    Because otherwise, Liz's claim that of course The Man covered up the Elliot/Cheerleadra connection reads like paranoid Conspiracy theorist garbage.
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    Meteor
    You are a meteor
    Falling star
    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Celestia's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Canterlot, Equestria
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    is it common knowledge that Tedd's dad is FBI?

    Because otherwise, Liz's claim that of course The Man covered up the Elliot/Cheerleadra connection reads like paranoid Conspiracy theorist garbage.
    I don't think so, but it wouldn't be too large of a leap to assume that there was a government cover up over magic and the world's first superhero. I'm sure it would have still happened even if Elliot didn't have a personal connection to one of the guys in charge of the covering uppage.
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