The Dark One or Redcloak?

[Jasdoif]

If giving someone everything they want is ever a goal, I'd probably not be cheering for the person trying to get everyone in on that.

If the Plan is exactly as described and the Dark One is actually intending to blackmail the gods with the threat of the Snarl, then he's going to get what he wants or he'll release the Snarl. And if he gets what he wants, he'll still have the Snarl to repeat the process when he wants something else.

Sealing the rifts, meanwhile, means the Gates will no longer open the way to the Snarl. In your analogy, this is the other gods offering to give the Dark One a chair if he destroys his gun. If he actually goes for it, he's incredibly less likely to shoot anyone (including himself by accident). Relinquishing his ability to threaten the gods along with the entire population of the world, souls and all, if he doesn't get his every whim met....That I think falls in the "cheer-worthy" category.


I don't really expect that happen, largely because the circumstances seem like the kind of situation that'd introduce a conflict between Redcloak and the Dark One, and it'd be kind of a waste if the Dark One's stance changed rather than Redcloak's because of how incredibly little we've seen of the Dark One (especially compared to Redcloak)...but I would be okay with being wrong in this situation.

[Peelee]

If the Plan is exactly as described and the Dark One is actually intending to blackmail the gods with the threat of the Snarl, then he's going to get what he wants or he'll release the Snarl. And if he gets what he wants, he'll still have the Snarl to repeat the process when he wants something else.

Which is an excellent reason to believe the Plan will not succeed.

[Jasdoif]

Which is an excellent reason to believe the Plan will not succeed.

Or that the Plan is not as described. Which I guess also means it's an excellent reason to believe the Plan as described will not succeed....

[Peelee]

Or that the Plan is not as described. Which I guess also means it's an excellent reason to believe the Plan as described will not succeed....

Ooooh, that dang author, with his clever storytelling!

[Jasdoif]

Ooooh, that dang author, with his clever storytelling!

It's like he's misdirecting us by misdirecting us. It's misdirection all the way down, kind of like gluing a speedometer onto an electron.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

Yep, I don't think Xykon needs Durkon or anyone else to tell him that there is something fishy with The Plan at this point. He is already suspicious, and that's why he instructed Tsukiko to study The Ritual. Possibly he doesn't knows the exact facts yet, but definitely he is no longer buying Redcloak's tale.

I agree with you! I guess my point is that once everything plays out - probably more like you said than in my crappy accelerated version - I still don't think Redcloak really has a chance to take Durkon's offer. Xykon's already shut it down with his shenanigans.

[The Pilgrim]

Or that the Plan is not as described. Which I guess also means it's an excellent reason to believe the Plan as described will not succeed....

Now that you mention it...

What if... when The Dark One learnt about the Snarl, he thought "That's great. The Prison is falling down, the World will need to be remade, and I will have a say in the next one. I will gain significant more power as I will no longer be the outcasted God of the pariah races".

But then some heroes appear and patch the Rifts with the Gates. "Darn, I need those gates destroyed. But perhaps my minions wouldn't be appropiately motivated to collaborate if I tell them that the Plan is to trigger the destruction of the world, killing them all in the process."

"What if I tell them that The Plan is to warp the gates with some ritual to control the Snarl? Chances are good my minions will destroy the Gates either when trying to capture them, or when trying to manipulate them. Chances are even better that the Gates will get destroyed by the heroes who will inevitably try to stop my minions. And on the off chance that my pawns manage to capture an intact gate and perform the Ritual, well, the Ritual is actually designed to, you guessed it, destroy the Gates."

"As a bonus, the Plan will probably attract some Big Scenery Chewing Villiain to collaborate with my weak minions, raising the chances of success."

"Yeah, that one might actually work".

Nah, such plan would be needlessly complicated, wouldn't it?

[Jasdoif]

Nah, such plan would be needlessly complicated, wouldn't it?

Only the part about needing to destroy the Gates; intentionally opening one Gate to let the Snarl out was plausible enough for Dorukan to have a self-destruct.

[Fyraltari]

Problem is we know from Tsukiko the arcane part of the ritual is legit and Red would know if the divine part wasn't, so it's a safe bet that the ritual does what it's supposed to do. Theoritically, at least; it's not like they ever tested it.

[Goblin_Priest]

Goblin_priest, the very same book that gave the Dark One most of his characterization had, in its final chapter, a character, who is portrayed at this point in the story as the sole voice of reason, call him ‘a petty, spiteful god who stopped caring for the goblin people long ago’. So no, the idea of the Dark One manipulating Redcloak to his own ends would not come out of left field.

Well, time will tell. In any case, Right-eye was never pious to begin with, and he then lost quite a lot to "The Plan" on which he wasn't overwhelmingly attached to to begin with. Bitterness and resentment are to be expected, and there's no reason to take his word for it. The Dark One *can't* do much at all on the material plane, so Right-Eye has absolutely zero evidence to support that statement. It's not as if he could do something and then failed to do so, then at least Right-Eye could use inaction as evidence.

All depictions of the Dark One, by credible and semi-credible parties, paint him as devoted to goblin-kind.

[Fyraltari]

Well, time will tell. In any case, Right-eye was never pious to begin with, and he then lost quite a lot to "The Plan" on which he wasn't overwhelmingly attached to to begin with. Bitterness and resentment are to be expected, and there's no reason to take his word for it. The Dark One *can't* do much at all on the material plane, so Right-Eye has absolutely zero evidence to support that statement. It's not as if he could do something and then failed to do so, then at least Right-Eye could use inaction as evidence.

Okay, no. You said that having the Dark One be disinterested with goblinkind's fate would be a new direction for the character but as I have shown, it's a direction that is just as supported by the text as the other. Also we don't have any reason to take Redcloak's word over Right-Eye's: he is a sycophant and mentally unable to consider that he was ever wrong. That's the difference, Right-Eye was just as onboard with the Plan as Redcloak but realized that it backfired and quit.

And yes Right-Eye does have proof to support his position: the Dark One hasn't taken Redcloak's power yet meaning that he is, at least, confortable with letting Xykon kill as many goblins as he pleases in the name of the Plan. Seeing as this plan has as step 1 "Make the Dark One the absolute ruler of the cosmos" it is entirely reasonable to question his motives.

All depictions of the Dark One, by credible and semi-credible parties, paint him as devoted to goblin-kind.

No. Redcloak's does. Thor's does not say a word about goblinkind. What other do you have in mind?

[hroþila]

No. Redcloak's does. Thor's does not say a word about goblinkind. What other do you have in mind?

Jirix's?

I mean, that one didn't show us much either, of course, but the Dark One seemed nice, reasonable and farsighted, putting Jirix to work on improving the lives of the goblinoids in ways that ostensibly have nothing to do with his Plan.

[Lacuna Caster]

I have no idea. I could see Redcloak finally seeing the light after the true nature of the Dark One is revealed to him, and I could also see the Dark One being confirmed as a more or less reasonable guy but Redcloak refusing to cooperate as part of his broader refusal of redemption (think Sauron at the end of the First Age: there was a moment when everything hung in the balance and repentance was a serious possibility, but ultimately he couldn't bear to face justice or admit he was wrong, so he rejected that possibility and fell even further instead).

Well, getting back to the line of debate proposed in the OP, the Dark One can't be contacted directly and that's why Thor assigned Durkon to reach to Redcloak. The goblin obviously is not going to buy Durkon's story, so he isn't going to bother telling the Dark One about it. That leaves The Dark One out of the decission process, which makes sense because the Gods aren't the protagonists and antagonists of this story...

Yeah, but y tho?

I mean, I am genuinely confused as to why Redcloak hasn't been engaged in direct and regular communication with the Dark One, given Hel and Thrym have clearly been talking to their own clerics engaged in a similar bid at seizing cosmic power, and commune spells (apparently) work just fine if the God in question can be bothered to answer. There is literally no-one on the planet that the Dark One has a better reason to talk with than Redcloak, right now.

Also, on the topic of 'redemption', bear in mind that Redcloak isn't damning his soul by following the Plan. He's actually keeping it safe. Because the Dark One (presumably) has the power to dispose of his soul after death. Deliberately scuppering the Plan if TDO doesn't want it scuppered could easily leave RC stuck with a one-way ticket to the Hells. Conversely, if TDO decides his Plan needs adjustment in light of new opportunities and RC throws a spanner in the works based on spite or whatever, that also won't endear him to his patron. (Who can also strip him of his powers at any time, of course.)

Like it or not, the Dark One legitimately has a huge amount of leverage over Redcloak here, to the extent that the latter could reasonably be considered an extension of the former's agency. You know, if they were actually talking to eachother.

If Thor's scheme hinges on one cleric of a god from each pantheon casting a ninth-level spell, it literally (not the figuratively of "Now I have to find a cleric to cast True Resurrection on Roy?! I can't do that!") only requires four seventeenth-level clerics in the entire world. If Durkon isn't almost there himself now (take the posts about his having died twice as read, please), Hilgya certainly is...

There's a significant gap between level 13 and level 17, unless Hilgya cast something more impressive than resurrection lately.

[zimmerwald1915]

There's a significant gap between level 13 and level 17, unless Hilgya cast something more impressive than resurrection lately.

Hilgya hasn't cast any 8th-level spells yet, but she's cast enough 7th-level spells in a day from her own slots that we can infer she prepared one in an 8th-level slot. This in preference to her having a Wisdom score than 1) is absurdly high and 2) doesn't jive with her characterization as presented.

She's at least level 15, may be level 16, and there is a small gap between either and level 17.

[Lacuna Caster]

Hilgya hasn't cast any 8th-level spells yet, but she's cast enough 7th-level spells in a day from her own slots that we can infer she prepared one in an 8th-level slot. This in preference to her having a Wisdom score than 1) is absurdly high and 2) doesn't jive with her characterization as presented.

Uggh. Hilgya, of all people, being the most uber-powerful non-antagonist just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[B. Dandelion]

Jirix's?

I mean, that one didn't show us much either, of course, but the Dark One seemed nice, reasonable and farsighted, putting Jirix to work on improving the lives of the goblinoids in ways that ostensibly have nothing to do with his Plan.

I always felt like there was something deeply hypocritical about that scene. The Dark One does come across as kind to Jirix and stresses the importance of his new duties, but he uses the opportunity to pass along a message to Redcloak regarding the Plan -- and it isn't stop. The Plan runs the very real risk of destroying the world, which of course includes Gobbotopia, so his actual concern for the city is secondary at best. Plus I kinda doubt that Redcloak has actually spelled out to Jirix the part of the Plan where both he and the Dark One are prepared to count the obliteration of every goblin soul on the planet as a win, so under those circumstances it comes off like him playing the wise benevolent figure to naive little Jirix but taking an action that largely undermines that image and shows his true priorities.

[Goblin_Priest]

Jirix's?

I mean, that one didn't show us much either, of course, but the Dark One seemed nice, reasonable and farsighted, putting Jirix to work on improving the lives of the goblinoids in ways that ostensibly have nothing to do with his Plan.

Indeed.

And, to a lesser extent, Thor's, by not providing anything that counters what Redcloak and Jirix put forth.

And, to an additional extent, the lack of any narrative by anyone even remotely in the know discrediting what they are saying.

[factotum]

I always felt like there was something deeply hypocritical about that scene. The Dark One does come across as kind to Jirix and stresses the importance of his new duties, but he uses the opportunity to pass along a message to Redcloak regarding the Plan -- and it isn't stop.

His exact words, as transmitted through the possibly unreliable source Jirix, were "Don't screw this up.". No mention of the Plan, so for all we know, he was actually talking about Gobbotopia and it's just Redcloak who interpreted it to mean the Plan.

[B. Dandelion]

His exact words, as transmitted through the possibly unreliable source Jirix, were "Don't screw this up.". No mention of the Plan, so for all we know, he was actually talking about Gobbotopia and it's just Redcloak who interpreted it to mean the Plan.

First of all, Jirix specifically says that the message is about the Plan. Capital-P Plan and everything.

Second, the commentary in Blood Runs in the Family is explicit about what is being communicated.

Most importantly, the idea needed to be put forth that just because Redcloak had, in fact, established a goblin state on the grave of Azure City did not mean that he was being let off the hook for carrying out his god's evil plan for the Gates. If Redcloak was the hero of the story, he could probably rest on his laurels at this point, but as the villain, he needs to keep moving.

The whole point is that the Dark One is still keeping Redcloak on the hook for carrying out the Plan.

[Fyraltari]

Indeed.

Not convinced, the Dark One doesn't do anything there, the resurrection spell was Redcloak's doing not his and still tell Red to prioritize the Plan over Gobbotopia.

And, to a lesser extent, Thor's, by not providing anything that counters what Redcloak and Jirix put forth.

You can't count an account not mentioning an issue as equal to supporting one side of it.

And, to an additional extent, the lack of any narrative by anyone even remotely in the know discrediting what they are saying.

What makes Redclaoak or Jirix more "in the know" than Right-Eye on the Dark One's motivations? None of them have access to his mind.

[woweedd]

Uggh. Hilgya, of all people, being the most uber-powerful non-antagonist just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Durkon's probably either o or very-near her level.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, but y tho?

I mean, I am genuinely confused as to why Redcloak hasn't been engaged in direct and regular communication with the Dark One, given Hel and Thrym have clearly been talking to their own clerics engaged in a similar bid at seizing cosmic power, and commune spells (apparently) work just fine if the God in question can be bothered to answer. There is literally no-one on the planet that the Dark One has a better reason to talk with than Redcloak, right now.

I can see redcloak deliberately avoiding talking to the Dark One because he doesn't want to face the possibility of having erred in his execution of the plan, subconsciously even. As for the Dark One not calling Redcloak... not enough data to theorize but that is suspicious.

Also, on the topic of 'redemption', bear in mind that Redcloak isn't damning his soul by following the Plan. He's actually keeping it safe. Because the Dark One (presumably) has the power to dispose of his soul after death. Deliberately scuppering the Plan if TDO doesn't want it scuppered could easily leave RC stuck with a one-way ticket to the Hells. Conversely, if TDO decides his Plan needs adjustment in light of new opportunities and RC throws a spanner in the works based on spite or whatever, that also won't endear him to his patron. (Who can also strip him of his powers at any time, of course.)

I don't think anyone was talking about Red reedeeming himself in the sense of securing his afterlife, but in the sense of becoming a better person.

Like it or not, the Dark One legitimately has a huge amount of leverage over Redcloak here, to the extent that the latter could reasonably be considered an extension of the former's agency. You know, if they were actually talking to eachother.

Not really? If I understand correctly, the gods only have a say in the afterlife of their worshippers, if a worshipper decides to forsake their deity then that deity doesn't get a say in their afterlife.

[Goblin_Priest]

What makes Redclaoak or Jirix more "in the know" than Right-Eye on the Dark One's motivations? None of them have access to his mind.

One had info directly drilled into his mind, the other had info told to his soul, both directly from the Dark One. Also Redcloak is a cleric with presumably a few ranks in Knowledge (religion), not sure for Jirix.

What does Right-Eye have? Absolutely nothing, other than bitterness and resentment.

[Fyraltari]

One had info directly drilled into his mind, the other had info told to his soul, both directly from the Dark One. Also Redcloak is a cleric with presumably a few ranks in Knowledge (religion), not sure for Jirix.

What does Right-Eye have? Absolutely nothing, other than bitterness and resentment.

So you know the Dark One is not lying to them because they say so and they know it is true because he has told them so?

EDIT: Right-Eye is judging the Dark One on his actions, what does Redcloak have? Absolutely nothing other than brainwashing and sunk-cost fallacies.

[understatement]

Right-Eye's unbiased precisely because he doesn't have TDO channeling through his head -- he's gauging the god from the results on the goblin people.


edit: which I realize is literally what the person above said.

oops

[Lacuna Caster]

Not really? If I understand correctly, the gods only have a say in the afterlife of their worshippers, if a worshipper decides to forsake their deity then that deity doesn't get a say in their afterlife.

That would seem like a strong incentive for the Dwarves to stop worshipping the Northern pantheon, which hasn't happened. (And no, I do not consider Hilgya a reliable authority on the subject.)

In any case, Redcloak's default destination would definitely be Hell at this point, so failing to actively please the Dark One leaves him up the metaphysical creek without a paddle, regardless of whether the latter could actively send him there.

[Fyraltari]

That would seem like a strong incentive for the Dwarves to stop worshipping the Northern pantheon, which hasn't happened. (And no, I do not consider Hilgya a reliable authority on the subject.)

The Dwarves’ situation is different from th usual. Most likely, the Bet was integrated into the building process of this world. Since the Dark One wasn’t even born yet he should have the normal deal.

In any case, Redcloak's default destination would definitely be Hell at this point, so failing to actively please the Dark One leaves him up the metaphysical creek without a paddle, regardless of whether the latter could actively send him there.

Well that depends, how fast do you think one can get to Neutral?

[Mightymosy]

The question proposed by the OP is interesting. However, it should be important to point out that, from a narrative perspective, the Main Villiain of this story is not the Dark One. It is Xykon. The Dark One isn't even the secondary villain, that's Redcloak's role as main henchman of Xykon. So the important thing for the story is not the interaction between The Dark One and Redcloak, but the interaction between Xykon and Redcloak, as Main Villian and Main Henchman.

As main henchmain, Redcloak is bound to betray his master. And, as we all know by now, he did in fact betray Xykon from the very begining, as the Plan doesn't works like he told Xykon it does (those who read SoD know it since SoD got released. Those who didn't, know it since Tsukiko's death scene). Redcloak is expecting to finish the plan, give command of the Snarl to the Dark One, and have his God unceremoniously dispose of Xykon. But it would be preposterous at this point to believe that Xykon isn't seeing it coming.

Xykon has already provided strong evidence that he doesn't trusts Redcloak neither the Plan. As poven, if nothing else, by the fact that the Lich gave Tsukiko the assignment of studying the Ritual. So there is zero chance that Xykon is going to carry out the Plan. At least, not the Plan as Redcloak envisions it. Remember Xykon's speech to V about Power. "Power is something you ARE". Gaining ultimate power through controlling an Eldritch Abomination doesn't really fits with Xykon's views on what True Power means, does it?

At some point towards the end of the story, we are going to witness Xykon crushing Redcloak's expectations. Either by twisting the Plan himself, or simply by telling Redcloak that he is not going to perform the Ritual and has only complied to the Plan up until that point for the lulz ("I'm boored") and to have fun abusing Redcloak and giving the little goblin false hope then looking at his face when the sorcerer lifts the veil away from Reddie's sole remaining eye.

And at that point, the question raised by the OP will be pointless. It doesn't matters whether Redcloak or the Dark One is the most likely to budge on the Plan. Because Xykon did already give up on it long ago. And after that fact gets revealed (in whatever way The Giant decides to deliver it), the Dark One (and Redcloak, assuming the goblin survives the reveal) will have no other option but comply with Thor's proposal.

Didn't Xykon already say "You know what is funny? False hope"


I have always thought that Xykon was more dangerous than RC was aware of. I have always thought that RC's betrayal would ultimately fail because he underestimates how aware Xykon can be when he needs to...
I'm not so sure anymore. For me, the last book and the current one leave a slight impression that Xykon is in the process of being a little "weak-washed", maybe to keep us guessing, maybe to help sell the villain switch in the last book, who knows?

Still I'd like to guess what Xykon's Plan B is if he has one. Suspicious is that he often left for some time for doing something we don't know. We also don't know where he got the diary from.
I think we are up to one surprising reveal about Xykon in the last book. :-)

[Goblin_Priest]

So you know the Dark One is not lying to them because they say so and they know it is true because he has told them so?

EDIT: Right-Eye is judging the Dark One on his actions, what does Redcloak have? Absolutely nothing other than brainwashing and sunk-cost fallacies.

Right-Eye's unbiased precisely because he doesn't have TDO channeling through his head -- he's gauging the god from the results on the goblin people.


edit: which I realize is literally what the person above said.

oops

Then let's name what the Dark One has done?

Spoiler: SoD

Show

*In life, he rallied the goblins to bring an end to their suffering.
*Was martyred trying to negotiate for goblinkind.
*Upon ascension to godhood, was almost martyred again, for the same reason (anti-goblin racist hate).
*Made a fuss with the gods about the goblins being given crap, as he had with his mortal peers in life.
*Then tried to peacefully guide his people as best he could.
*When he finally found a means to gain leverage for his people, he acted on it.

What more was he supposed to do? Tell goblins to keep sitting on their asses as "PCs ruthlessly clear them out of various adventure scenarios"?

What "results on the goblin people" are you talking about? Because widespread genocide of goblinoids started well before him. Xykon's an ass, but 1) the paladins didn't treat the goblins much better, and 2) The Dark One neither asked for Xykon nor could have predicted him.

So unless you want to argue that the fate of goblinoids is worse since The Plan, for which I'd argue we have no proof of whatsoever, I don't really see on what legitimate basis Right-Eye can slander the Dark One. And he is far from being without bias, he just has different bias. He lost his family to the Plan. That kind of thing would naturally bias him against the Dark One.

[Kish]

So you know the Dark One is not lying to them because they say so and they know it is true because he has told them so?

EDIT: Right-Eye is judging the Dark One on his actions, what does Redcloak have? Absolutely nothing other than brainwashing and sunk-cost fallacies.

Notice the pattern here. "All depictions of the Dark One, by credible and semi-credible parties, paint him as devoted to goblin-kind" equals: If you're a priest of the Dark One and talk about him positively, that paints him as devoted to goblinkind. If you're a god and mention that he exists and don't say anything at all on the subject of how he acts toward goblinkind, that paints him as devoted to goblinkind. If you're a goblin and explicitly say you don't believe he cares about goblinkind, that somehow doesn't count.

It appears from Goblin_Priest's perspective, it's literally impossible for the suggestion that the Dark One isn't a positive figure to be valid.